Dresden, 1945

[Michael Kenny]

We find a fire storm in Rome in 64 because the city buildings was composed mostly of wood. But Dresden as mostly composed of stone.

Maybe he can also explain to us why tanks, which are made of steel, also burn fiercely when hit by artillery?

[wm]

The question is now : why democratic countries like UK and US used such horrible weapons whereas the war was over and there were absolutely no need of
Dresden bombing, like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was a warning launched towards the Soviets : "that's what we can do". A prelude to the Cold War.

You have a strange definition of "the war was over".
Probably more than 500,000 people would die between Dresden and the end of the war. In the battle of Berlin casualties were more than that.

But Dresden as mostly composed of stone.

It was maybe 50% bricks and the rest was wood, straw, reeds. By today's standard those buildings were seriously crappy. Most of them were built in the nineteenth century. The newer, even those built by the Nazis weren't actually any better.

[David Thompson]

DavidFrankenberg -- Your source for the claim (at viewtopic.php?p=2091419#p2091419) that the USAF used napalm and the RAF used phosphorus in the Dresden bombing is merely your own conclusory notion (at viewtopic.php?p=2091492#p2091492) that napalm and phosphorus just had to be used because Dresden in 1945 was supposedly built mostly of stone, a claimed fact for which you again cite no source. This substitution of opinion for fact won't turn the trick here. You have already been warned about not providing sources for claimed facts, and our readers are growing irritated; as one report noted:

This is hardly providing a source as asked for, does nothing to prove his point or contribute to the discussion and is the reason Dresden and other 'stone' cities burned has been explained earlier in this very thread. If the poster was actually interested in an informed debate he would have read the thread and known this. This and other posts he's made on other threads seem to indicate he has little interest in informed debate but instead is pushing a particular ideological agenda.

[wm]

This is how roofs of those building looked from inside:

d1.jpg (75.69 KiB) Viewed 1355 times

their ceilings, usually densly filled with reeds or similar material:

their stairways, usually made from wood:

d3.jpg (125.69 KiB) Viewed 1355 times

so the end results of fire bombings were:

d4.jpg (75.18 KiB) Viewed 1355 times

source: 1,2,3,4.


And actually it was much easier to survive firebombing than an attack with high explosives.
No blast waves, there were always many places with no fire (because there was nothing combustible there), fire spread slowly so you had a chance to escape, and people in shelters weren't buried alive with rubble.

[Rossano]

Hello John
I refer to Your contribute 227 above
I doubt that Maj. J. Boll was Bv.TO. at Pz.AOK.4. Infact his personal cards read :
1) Jan. 45 kdrt. z. St. Pz.AOK. 4 (b. Id)
2) März 45 kdrt. z. St. OB. West
3) another officer was from dec. 44 to may 45 Bev.TO. at Pz.AOK. 4 (from various docs. + lists)
Rgds., Rossano

[Sergey Romanov]

I suspect, from previous exchanges with him, that a certain df might be a denier troll.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

DavidFrankenberg -- Your source for the claim (at viewtopic.php?p=2091419#p2091419) that the USAF used napalm and the RAF used phosphorus in the Dresden bombing is merely your own conclusory notion (at viewtopic.php?p=2091492#p2091492) that napalm and phosphorus just had to be used because Dresden in 1945 was supposedly built mostly of stone, a claimed fact for which you again cite no source. This substitution of opinion for fact won't turn the trick here. You have already been warned about not providing sources for claimed facts, and our readers are growing irritated; as one report noted:

This is hardly providing a source as asked for, does nothing to prove his point or contribute to the discussion and is the reason Dresden and other 'stone' cities burned has been explained earlier in this very thread. If the poster was actually interested in an informed debate he would have read the thread and known this. This and other posts he's made on other threads seem to indicate he has little interest in informed debate but instead is pushing a particular ideological agenda.

"..As the incendiaries fell, the phosphorus clung to the bodies of those below, turning them into human torches. The screaming of those who were being burned alive was added to the cries of those not yet hit"
Victor Gregg.

Hi David.. The Guardian quotes Victor Gregg, taken POW with 1 AB at Arnhem and lodged in Dresden at the time of the bombing.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -war-crime

Cheers
Sandeep

[LineDoggie]

"..As the incendiaries fell, the phosphorus clung to the bodies of those below, turning them into human torches. The screaming of those who were being burned alive was added to the cries of those not yet hit"
Victor Gregg.

Hi David.. The Guardian quotes Victor Gregg, taken POW with 1 AB at Arnhem and lodged in Dresden at the time of the bombing.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -war-crime

Cheers
Sandeep

UK Incendiaries were Magnesium & Thermite not Phosphorus based
http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/USN ... age089.HTM

https://bulletpicker.com/bomb_-4-lb-ib_ ... e_-mk.html

http://65.175.100.54/uxofiles/mulvaney/ ... b,4lbs.pdf

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi all,

An interesting aspect of the terror bombing debate:

The USAF (8th Air Force) dropped 1526.4 tons of HE and 164.5 tons of incendiary bombs on Dresden, through 572 sorties on 17th April 45 i.e., 20 days before the war ended...and with the US forces at the Elbe!
The tonnage dropped and the sorties flown, were the highest among the 6 raids made since October 1944.

So you can filter all the clap trap thrown around about how the Feb raid was a war necessity since after the Ardennes caper, victory wasn't, apparently, certain at that time (even after the Soviet sweep since Jan 12 )

However, in terms of sheer "burning hatred" the Feb 14 raid still topped. 294.3 tons of incendiaries were chucked that day..The highest among all the 6 raids!

Cheers
Sandeep

[LineDoggie]

Hi all,

An interesting aspect of the terror bombing debate:

The USAF (8th Air Force) dropped 1526.4 tons of HE and 164.5 tons of incendiary bombs on Dresden, through 572 sorties on 17th April 45 i.e., 20 days before the war ended...and with the US forces at the Elbe!
The tonnage dropped and the sorties flown, were the highest among the 6 raids made since October 1944.

So you can filter all the clap trap thrown around about how the Feb raid was a war necessity since after the Ardennes caper, victory wasn't, apparently, certain at that time (even after the Soviet sweep since Jan 12 )

However, in terms of sheer "burning hatred" the Feb 14 raid still topped. 294.3 tons of incendiaries were chucked that day..The highest among all the 6 raids!

Cheers
Sandeep

If ignorance is bliss you must be serene like a god

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Still feeding us straight lines.. eh?

[LineDoggie]

Still feeding us straight lines.. eh?

Ahh the royal 'us" not at all too self important, eh?

[David Thompson]

Please stay on topic when posting here.

[wm]

20 days before the war ended

In those 20 days, over 200,000 soldiers died fighting, and more than half a million were wounded.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

20 days before the war ended

In those 20 days, over 200,000 soldiers died fighting, and more than half a million were wounded.

Yahhh.. out of them were 81000 Red Army men who fell in and around Berlin ALONE.. and whom no amount of bombing of civilian targets would have saved. HJ kids and VS dads slaughtered in one sided massacres and German troopers killed at will in Prague .
No difference made by fire bombing civilian targets

Cheers
Sandeep