Dresden, 1945

[Globalization41]

What else was happening at the time of the Dresden bombing?

2/14/1945, Crimea Conference, Official Communique, "Nazi Germany Is Doomed" … Map, Crimea Pen. Google

2/17/1945, Book Review, War Criminals, Their Prosecution & Punishment, by Sheldon Glueck of Harvard U.

2/21/1945, Japs at Iwo Jima Fight from Fortified Caves; Heavy U.S. Losses Expected … Map, Iwo Jima, Google

Globalizatiom41.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi wm,

A lot of padding from an unknown and unsourced quote that comes down to this:

"At Stuppach, in northern Wurttemberg, townfolk were suspected of harbouring a wounded German officer, but they were instructed to produce within three hours either the officer or a good explanation; otherwise, all male inhabitants would be shot, women and children would be driven into the hinterland, and the town would be leveled."

As your quotation doesn't provide a source and doesn't say that any hostages were actually taken, I have tried to find out more on the internet, but have failed.

What more have you got on Stuppach?

Cheers,

Sid.

[wm]

The reference for that is:

38.png

and Stuppach most likely is referenced by the first of them.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi wm,

Thanks. Unfortunately this only went through one edition in 1947 and the cheapest copy is £137.50 + postage, so I am not in a position to follow it up.

Please let us know if you find anything more substantive on Stuppach.

Cheers,

Sid

[MarkF617]

I think this long running topic is yet again going in circles. It has been pointed out many times already that the boming of Dresden and the 2 atomic bombings of Japan were borh perfectly legal. It doesn't matter if 1 person was killed or if every man, woman, child, cat, dog hamster, and rabbit is killed no laws were broken. Dresden, the whole city, was consideted a military target so could be attacked. If it terrorised school teachers then that's a bonus as part of the aim of bombing was to terrorise the German population. As someone up thread pointed out there is no rule saying Thou shalt not terror. It matters not one bit how emotional people get over the bombing, emotions play no part in Law and I ahain stress that the bombings broke no law. If anyone believes it did then please produce this law not a bunch of anecdotes about how awful it was.

Thanks

Mark.

[Annelie]

Yes, the law is the law but sometimes the law is wrong!

[Michael Kenny]

Yes, the law is the law but sometimes the law is wrong!

The law can not be wrong because it is by definition 'The Law'. I think the problem with these type of threads is that any genuine concerns about the morality of some lawful actions are drowned out by those who really only care about perpetuating the 'they all committed war crimes' fantasy and the 'victors justice' lie.

[Hans1906]

If it terrorised school teachers then that's a bonus as part of the aim of bombing was to terrorise the German population

MarkF617,

I see this comletely different in the year 2022, from the point of our former teacher in our childhood years.
To us little children, the Lady from Dresden appeared "old", she was probably in her early 60s, when she told us all this
in the 1960s, several times.
Frau Thieroff was a nice lady, always welcomed in the household of our family.
My grandparents Hans and Alberta always left their doors open, for all these victims, the refugees, for all of them.

Nobody was left alone, and all this did not end in the 1960s, no, it never ended...
Local people still share all this, in local groups, in oranisations, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren also.
The german term "Heimat" still is the glue, the bondage, that sticks all these people together,
even generations later.

Hans

[MarkF617]

Hans,

Please try to remember that the purpose of bomber command was to help win the largest, most industrialised war ever not to be nice to Germans. There were no smart weapons or night vision goggles so the only way to hit the many targets spread all over the city is to flatten the city. Terrified people running off into the countryside are not going to work in the remaining factories.
After the first world war Germany was left practically intact. This led to the stab in the back myth that Germany was undefeated so they started another war to put it right in their eyes. After total defeat in this war where all witnessed the devastation and suffering of total war Germany has never even considered round 3. As you say the horrors witnessed are now passed from generation to generation as a warning to all how bad war really is. Along with the threat of nuclear wrapons this has helpd keep the peace in Europe for nearly 80 years.
Please remember that the bomber crews were just ordinary people too drafted into a war they did not wish to fight, doing a nadty job that had to be done despite the danger. Also remember that the were not attacking un-defended targets but targets far behind enemy lines defended by flak and fighters.

Thanks

Mark.

[wm]

War is basically "if you kill enough of them, they stop fighting."
Killing, let's say, a million enemy soldiers (i.e., basically young men, boys) to win a war isn't any morally superior over killing let's say 750,000 boys + 250,000 civilians.
The proponents of moral wars, "better wars", "better mass killings" don't understand that it's absurd that some killings are better than others. There are simply no good ways to kill or to die.

And as the good general said, "it is well that war is so terrible — lest we should grow too fond of it."
If the elites, if the people could avoid paying the price for war wars will be endless.
You could consult the recent American history to see that.

[MarkF617]

Unfortunately Hitler and his cronies didn't care how many Germans died so it became a matter of kill enough people and destroy/capture enough industry/resources that they could no longer fight. There was no hope whatsoever after D-Day. Rundstedt suggested making peace and was sacked. Any deaths after this can be squarely blamed on the German government refusing to see the inevitable and give in.

Thanks

Mark.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi MarkF617,

I rather think you are being too generous and that any deaths BEFORE this can also be squarely blamed on the German government. In order to get to the situation of mid 1944 they had breached 13 assurances, 8 treaties, 6 conventions, 3 solemn assurances, 2 agreements and one declaration against 12 different countries by 11 December, 1941. (The list is not comprehensive even then, as it doesn't, for example, include the Reichskonkordat with the Vatican, or other breaches after that date, often against fellow Axis countries.)

Cheers,

Sid.

[MarkF617]

Anellie.

[Yes, the law is the law but sometimes the law is wrong!]

A law banning bombing of cities was proposed but not signed by any country. Also just before the war started Britain and France proposed no bombing of cities but Germany (rightly) simply saw this as weakness on the part if the allies. As Bomber Harris said they nievely believed they could bomb anywhere they wanted and no one would bomb them. They put far too much faith in the mighty Luftwaffe, these days we would refer to this as an epic fail


Thanks

Mark.

[wm]

I think it was Roosevelt who made the appeal to refrain from bombing civilians and unfortified cities and it was accepted by all belligerents, including Germany - but later the Allies and Germany gradually abandoned the self-declared moratorium.

[MarkF617]

There was a self declared restraint after Roosevelt's plea but it was mentioned up-thread that a last minute attempt was made by Britain and France to have it outlawed to avoid their own cities from being flattened. When I have more time I'll do a little research and see what I can find.

Thanks

Mark.