Story behind this 12th SS photo

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yelirt5
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Story behind this 12th SS photo

Post by yelirt5 » 01 May 2006 13:54

I know that most everyone has seen this photograph before, but I'm wondering if anyone knows the story behind it, who the 12th SS soldier pictured is, and whether he survived the war (or captivity).

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snookie
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Re: Story behind this 12th SS photo

Post by snookie » 01 May 2006 15:56

yelirt5 wrote:I know that most everyone has seen this photograph before, but I'm wondering if anyone knows the story behind it, who the 12th SS soldier pictured is, and whether he survived the war (or captivity).

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I think it was another one of those instances where the prisoner kicked the crap out of himself.

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Radar
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ss

Post by Radar » 01 May 2006 21:42

Snookie,

read your PM

Radar

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Kurz Patrone
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Post by Kurz Patrone » 01 May 2006 23:53

A well know picture,that poor lad was beating up by canadian troops somewhere
around normandy,most probably after some canadians pows were executed by
Waffen SS troops,whomever started this discusting behaviour it continued after
the war by both sides,about the young soldier ID i coulnd tell you who was him
but i can tell you he was from Meyers 12th SS.

Mauro.

Rob - wssob2
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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 02 May 2006 03:45

1) Can anyone source the picture (e.g. US National Archives) and when it first appeared in print (e.g. "Stars and Stripes" issue for Aug 17, 1944) when it was taken and where it was taken?

2) that poor lad was beating up by canadian troops somewhere around normandy

That is an accusation without proof. It is just as plausible that the panzergrenadier was wounded by shrapnel, or by a bullet.

3) it continued after the war by both sides

You mean that post-WWII Canadian veterans and SS veterans were in a cycle of vendetta killings?

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Kurz Patrone
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Post by Kurz Patrone » 02 May 2006 08:36

I meant to say: after the normandy campaign both sides continued
to violated pow rights.
And to address your other infallible point, thats why i said "probably"
before my statement.

Mauro.

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Fallschirmjäger
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Sniper

Post by Fallschirmjäger » 02 May 2006 09:02

Was he not a sniper im shure,and killed there comander or one or few of there men,so of course beat him up a bit.

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Georg_S
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Post by Georg_S » 02 May 2006 10:37

It´s well known that US and Canadian Soldiers thought that members of the SS who wore the
Camoflauge uniform must have been snipers, and when they got captured in the early days
after the D-day they beated them terrible, the Canadians had, in some cases well deserved, bad reputation
among the SS-Soldier.

And then I must ask you Rob, doesn´t you think that Allied soldiers could and committed warcrimes against
German Soldiers and espeacially SS Soldiers? When I read your post you are always defending Allied soldiers
and in you point of view they must have been angels, but there is historic fact that many SS soldiers and ordinary as well
was shot without any reason beside being a German or wearing a German uniform.
I have a photo of two SS-soldiers who after the war was brought to the former KL Dachau as POW´s and they on the photo also
badly beated, fate of those two SS-soldiers is unknown, the is held in a very small room where they even can´t stand on their
feet, and the capture of the photo is saying that he SS-men had to stay attention every time the door opened, but they had to
do on their knees. The photo is taken in May 1945. I wonder what the Geneva konvention is saying about
that kind of treatment. I know that many will say that the SS got what they deserved, but I think that´s wrong to justify the allied treatment
with the Excuse that the Germans had done that and that. I have always thinked about those to SS-men and wondered what the
US Officers did to prevent that kind of treatment of German POW´s. Did they had to learn the "Rules of Engagement" and the
Geneva Convention at West Point or which Cadettacadamy they entered.

I can name how many incidents as ever, but one is on April 29, 1945 in Weibling were 43 SS-soldiers (regular Troops) was sumaliry
shot by members of the 42 US Div. (Same div who later the same day would libirate the KL Dachau). At that time
of the war, the US soldiers must have been aware that the Germans had lost the war, and why shot so many young soldiers.
I must point out that those SS soldiers was shot before the US troops entered the Camp. No one have been charged of this
warcrime.

Best regards,

Georg

PS. I know that Germans also comitted many Warcrimes and espeacially the SS, but I think that both sides actions can be discussed.

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Post by snookie » 02 May 2006 12:50

IN "Steel Inferno", Michael Reynolds devotes a whole chapter to allied warcrimes in Normandy. Don Burgett also writes about many nasty issues in several of His books on the 101st, as does Mark Bando in his Volumes on the 101st Airborne and the 2nd Armored Division. I cannot remember in which text I mentioned above it is in, but the author stated that anyone caught wearing camouflage might not make it back to the prisoner collection pens. They also mentioned anyone wearing a skull on their collar or hat was also fair game as they also believed that these people were indeed SS, as opposed to any type of Heer tanker or possible cavalry unit that wore the skulls on their collar/lapel or hat. IN one of the references above they also mentioned that anyone carrying some sort of allied war souvenier or a sniper RARELY was taken prisoner.

This stuff is old news.

That eye swelled shut looks more like a rifle butt or fist/boot type wound as opposed to shrapnel...but since we do not have definitive proof one way or the other, I guess we can believe whatever we want about how he received his wounds.

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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 02 May 2006 13:51

If we want to learn the story behind the photograph, we will need the information I asked about earlier.

N "Steel Inferno", Michael Reynolds devotes a whole chapter to allied warcrimes in Normandy.


Having read Steel Inferno multiple times, I would counter that Reynolds as an author and researcher tends to whitewash Waffen-SS warcrimes and close affinity to Nazi ideas. His claims WRT to allied war crimes tend to be heresay allegations more than documented facts.

I cannot remember in which text I mentioned above it is in, but the author stated that anyone caught wearing camouflage might not make it back to the prisoner collection pens.


But most SS troops captureed at Normandy did make it to POW collection points.

BTW practically all 12th SS "Hitler Youth" troops were issued cammo fatigues.

The fact that they were fighting SS troops seems to be common knowledge at least down to the Allied battalion staff level, so why would Canadian troops assume that all Germans wearing camoflauge were snipers?



IN one of the references above they also mentioned that anyone carrying some sort of allied war souvenier or a sniper RARELY was taken prisoner.


I assure you that GI accounts of the ETO also mention the danger of being captured with souveniers. It is a bad idea to get captured by a guy when you have his dead buddy's rank tabs and girlfriend photo in your fatigue jacket.

That eye swelled shut looks more like a rifle butt or fist/boot type wound as opposed to shrapnel...but since we do not have definitive proof one way or the other, I guess we can believe whatever we want about how he received his wounds.


The panzergrenadier could have walked into a barn door or had the barrel of a 88mm gun clock him on the head. Snookie is right - unless we get the background information, we're just speculating.

And then I must ask you Rob, doesn´t you think that Allied soldiers could and committed warcrimes against
German Soldiers and espeacially SS Soldiers?


As I mentioned earlier, most accounts of Canadian war crimes against SS troops tend to be hearsay and they tend to be brought up in context of arguments attempting absolve 12th SS CO Kurt "Panzer" Meyer for the execution of Canadian POWs during the first week of the Normandy campaign.

Whatever war crimes committed by Allied troops during the Normandy campaign - either by Canadians or 101st AB troops as documented by historians like Reynolds and Bando - tend to be spontaneous, unpremeditated acts committed immediately after combat actions against a prisoner or small groups of prisoners, and I am certain that those same type of crimes of passion were committed by 12th SS troops as well.

However, what you will not find on the Allied side is the deliberate execution of POWs after they have been interrogated by the regimental staff - as you do with "Panzer" Meyer and the SS-PGR 25 at the Abbaye Ardenne on June 7th-8th, 1944.

BTW - 12th SS troops are documented for killing at least 40 Canadian POWs within 48 hours of the landings on the Normandy beachheads. You will have a hard time convincing me that these killings were in reprisal for Canadian war crimes. Little fishes - we'll throw them into the sea - right?

When I read your post you are always defending Allied soldiers
and in you point of view they must have been angels,


Not angels, but the "good-guys" of WWII. They fought to liberate Europe.

I have a photo of two SS-soldiers who after the war was brought to the former KL Dachau as POW´s and they on the photo also
badly beated, fate of those two SS-soldiers is unknown, the is held in a very small room where they even can´t stand on their
feet, and the capture of the photo is saying that he SS-men had to stay attention every time the door opened, but they had to
do on their knees. The photo is taken in May 1945. I wonder what the Geneva konvention is saying about
that kind of treatment. I know that many will say that the SS got what they deserved, but I think that´s wrong to justify the allied treatment


Having reseached the liberation of Dachau exhaustively, I assure you that whatever mistreatment US troops and former KZ inmates meted out to Germans captured at the installation pales in scale to the massive crimes committed by the SS at the installation in the fortnight preceeding the camp's liberation.

I can name how many incidents as ever, but one is on April 29, 1945 in Weibling were 43 SS-soldiers (regular Troops) was sumaliry
shot by members of the 42 US Div.


I already wrote a thread on it in the Warcrimes section. It's an unsubstantiated allegation based on a 1980 article by Andrew Mollo.

I have always thinked about those to SS-men and wondered what the
US Officers did to prevent that kind of treatment of German POW´s. Did they had to learn the "Rules of Engagement" and the
Geneva Convention at West Point or which Cadettacadamy they entered.


You know Georg, on Sept 6th, 1944 Belgian partisans captured "Panzer" Meyer - they literally hauled him out his hidey-hole in a chicken coop at Spontin. They were all ready to string Meyer up on the nearest lamppost but it was US troops who protected Meyer from summary execution and got him safely to a POW collection point. (BTW this is all documented in Vol II of H. Meyers history of the division. Hubert Meyer,was, as you know, the IA of the 12th SS division and Panzer Meyers chief of staff.)

Shouldn't the GI's get credit for that?

BTW maybe this young panzergrenadier is one of the triggermen at Ascq.

Care to discuss what the 12th SS did on April 1, 1944?

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Post by snookie » 02 May 2006 14:23

Rob - wssob2...
I have seen your posting here before and will not get into any pissing contest with you for (a) David will delete my posts anyway and (b) I do not care enough to waste the bandwidth.

I would like to ask though, how do you know that most POWs made it to the POW collection points? Sources please? (impossible task my friend and I hope that the moderator deletes your unsourced posts)

And the next time we speak of allied soldiers being captured behind enemy lines, can you refer to them being pulled from their "hidey-holes"?
Your ilk cracks me up.

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Post by snookie » 02 May 2006 14:25

Oh and Rob, I'll step in for the moderator here...

Please stay on topic.

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 02 May 2006 14:48

As far as I can see, Rob is on topic. And I would advise against attempting to "step in for the moderators" to enhance your authority - believe me, it doesn't.

cheers

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Post by snookie » 02 May 2006 14:59

Qvist wrote:As far as I can see, Rob is on topic. And I would advise against attempting to "step in for the moderators" to enhance your authority - believe me, it doesn't.

cheers


Ok Qvist, I'll bite...

Riddle me this, how does the murder of SS troops at Dachau (by US troops and liberated camp personnel) during the liberation of the camp have anything to do with the photo that started this thread?

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Juha Hujanen
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Post by Juha Hujanen » 02 May 2006 15:25

Earlier discussion of same subject:

viewtopic.php?t=79255&highlight=hitlerjugend

/Juha

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