New Grave

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Dan
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New Grave

#1

Post by Dan » 31 Oct 2002, 02:06

MINSK, Belarus, Oct. 30 — Authorities discovered a mass grave on a military base with the remains of up to 12,000 people killed during World War II, defense officials said Wednesday.
The grave is in the town of Slutsk, nearly 60 miles south of the Belarus capital of Minsk, said Leonid Zakharenko, press secretary for the defense ministry.
Residents who discovered the grave told officials that Nazi troops executed and buried Jews from Slutsk and prisoners from a nearby concentration camp at the site from 1942 to 1944.
Authorities also suspect some of the victims, many of them stacked on top of each other, were Roman Catholics from Poland and Belarus, Zakharenko said.
''Searchers found the remains of people of different nationalities and ages, including children,'' Zakharenko said.
So far, authorities have recovered the remains of about 50 people but a full excavation of the site is planned for the spring.
Belarus was home to a substantial Jewish minority before the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. Of the 6 million Jews who died in Europe during World War II, 800,000 were killed by Nazis in Belarus.
This from the AP today.

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Benoit Douville
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#2

Post by Benoit Douville » 31 Oct 2002, 03:59

Interesting because of the fact that different nationalities were found. Can't wait to find out more information about this. Thanks Dan.

Regards


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witness
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#3

Post by witness » 31 Oct 2002, 06:47

Interesting info Dan.
Thanks.

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Roberto
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Re: New Grave

#4

Post by Roberto » 31 Oct 2002, 12:42

Dan wrote:
MINSK, Belarus, Oct. 30 — Authorities discovered a mass grave on a military base with the remains of up to 12,000 people killed during World War II, defense officials said Wednesday.
The grave is in the town of Slutsk, nearly 60 miles south of the Belarus capital of Minsk, said Leonid Zakharenko, press secretary for the defense ministry.
Residents who discovered the grave told officials that Nazi troops executed and buried Jews from Slutsk and prisoners from a nearby concentration camp at the site from 1942 to 1944.
Authorities also suspect some of the victims, many of them stacked on top of each other, were Roman Catholics from Poland and Belarus, Zakharenko said.
''Searchers found the remains of people of different nationalities and ages, including children,'' Zakharenko said.
So far, authorities have recovered the remains of about 50 people but a full excavation of the site is planned for the spring.
Belarus was home to a substantial Jewish minority before the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. Of the 6 million Jews who died in Europe during World War II, 800,000 were killed by Nazis in Belarus.
This from the AP today.
Interesting news, although the number cited at the end may be too high. German historian Christian Gerlach, in his book Kalkulierte Morde, estimated that between 500,000 and 550,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis on the territory of present-day Belarus. The occupation forces also killed ca. 700,000 Soviet prisoners of war, over 300,000 peasant inhabitants of “partisan-infested” areas and about 100,000 members of other population groups (gypsies, physically or mentally disabled people, refugees, ethnic Poles, members of urban resistance groups), according to Gerlach.

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#5

Post by troy007 » 31 Oct 2002, 18:51

I too have info to add about # of jews murdered. The Yad Vashem in Israel actually says about 3 million Jews died during the war. The estimated this number for a couple of reasons.
1)soldiers over inflated the #'s to please their sup.
2)atuall claims of jewish surviors

Dan
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#6

Post by Dan » 31 Oct 2002, 19:11

Roberto, looks like you have another scholar on your revisionist side :wink:

Charles Bunch
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#7

Post by Charles Bunch » 31 Oct 2002, 19:11

troy007 wrote:I too have info to add about # of jews murdered. The Yad Vashem in Israel actually says about 3 million Jews died during the war. The estimated this number for a couple of reasons.
1)soldiers over inflated the #'s to please their sup.
2)atuall claims of jewish surviors
Yad Vashem makes no such claims.

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Roberto
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#8

Post by Roberto » 31 Oct 2002, 20:13

troy007 wrote:I too have info to add about # of jews murdered. The Yad Vashem in Israel actually says about 3 million Jews died during the war. The estimated this number for a couple of reasons.
1)soldiers over inflated the #'s to please their sup.
2)atuall claims of jewish surviors
As far as I know, Yad Vashem maintain that they have recorded the names of about three million of the victims of the Nazi genocide.

But I’ll give our new friend a chance to show me a statement from Yad Vashem that supports his assertions.

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Roberto
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#9

Post by Roberto » 31 Oct 2002, 20:15

Dan wrote:Roberto, looks like you have another scholar on your revisionist side :wink:
Who are you referring to ?

If it’s Gerlach, I would consider him a revisionist in the proper sense of the term, because he has done a lot to shed light on the connections between Nazi economic and occupation policies on the one hand and their killing policies on the other.

If it’s our new poster, he looks more like one of those true believers who inappropriately call themselves “Revisionists”.

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#10

Post by michael mills » 01 Nov 2002, 07:11

How can we be certain that this recently discovered grave contains the bodies of persons killed by German occupiers during the Second World War?

The bodies contained in it could just as easily be those of persons killed by Soviet forces either before or after the German occupation.

How do we know that the bodies are those of Jews? Are Jewish bones distinguishable from gentile bones?

If it can be shown that some of the bodies are those of Polish Catholics (how?), then it is equally possible that they were killed by Soviet forces as part of the pre- and post-war repressions of Polish nationalists.

Why jump to the conclusion that this was an atrocity committed by the Germans? Another Katyn in the making, perhaps?

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#11

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 01 Nov 2002, 07:39

michael mills wrote:How can we be certain that this recently discovered grave contains the bodies of persons killed by German occupiers during the Second World War?

The bodies contained in it could just as easily be those of persons killed by Soviet forces either before or after the German occupation.

How do we know that the bodies are those of Jews? Are Jewish bones distinguishable from gentile bones?

If it can be shown that some of the bodies are those of Polish Catholics (how?), then it is equally possible that they were killed by Soviet forces as part of the pre- and post-war repressions of Polish nationalists.

Why jump to the conclusion that this was an atrocity committed by the Germans? Another Katyn in the making, perhaps?
they carbondated them - it is 1942

Dan
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#12

Post by Dan » 01 Nov 2002, 15:25

The science of carbon dating must have vastly advanced in the last couple of years for such a specific dating.

Charles Bunch
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Slutsk - A Documented Einsatzgruppen Massacre

#13

Post by Charles Bunch » 01 Nov 2002, 17:05

michael mills wrote:How can we be certain that this recently discovered grave contains the bodies of persons killed by German occupiers during the Second World War?

The bodies contained in it could just as easily be those of persons killed by Soviet forces either before or after the German occupation.

How do we know that the bodies are those of Jews? Are Jewish bones distinguishable from gentile bones?

If it can be shown that some of the bodies are those of Polish Catholics (how?), then it is equally possible that they were killed by Soviet forces as part of the pre- and post-war repressions of Polish nationalists.

Why jump to the conclusion that this was an atrocity committed by the Germans? Another Katyn in the making, perhaps?
The two day massacre of Jews at Slutsk in October 1941 has been part of the historical record since the Nuremberg Trials.

Background information, including eyewitness reports, can be found here:

http://muweb.millersville.edu/~holo-con/buscher.html

http://www.nsulaw.nova.edu/student/orga ... Watson.htm

The referenced report from Carl, the Commissioner of Slutsk, to the Commissioner General at Minsk, was submitted as evidence at the Nuremberg trials -- Document 1104-PS

http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/slutsk/slu-xi.html

DOCUMENT 1104-PS
Copy/T of the copy

The commissioner of the Territory of Slutsk

Slutsk, 30 October 1941
SECRET


To the Commissioner General Minsk

SUBJECT: Action against Jews

Referring to the report made by phone on 27 October 1941 I now beg to inform you in writing of the following

On 27 October in the morning at about 8 o'clock a first lieutenant of the police battalion No. 11 from Kauen (Lithuania) appeared and introduced himself as the adjutant of the battalion commander of the security police. The first lieutenant explained that the police battalion had received the assignment to effect the liquidation of all Jews here in the town of Slutzk, within two days. The battalion commander with his battalion in strength of four companies, two of which were made up of Lithuanian partisans, was on the march here and the action would have to begin instantly. I replied to the first lieutenant that I had to discuss the action in any case first with the commander. About half an hour later the police battalion arrived in Slutzk. Immediately after the arrival the conference with the battalion commander took place according to my request. I first explained to the commander that it would not very well be possible to effect the action without previous preparation, because everybody had been sent to work and that it would lead to terrible confusion. At least it would have been his duty to inform me a day ahead of time. Then I requested him to postpone the action one day. However, he rejected this with the remark that he had to carry out this action everywhere and in all towns and that only two days were allotted for Slutzk. Within these two days, the town of Slutzk had to be cleared of Jews by all means. I immediately protested violently against it, pointing out that a liquidation of Jews must not be allowed to take place in an arbitrary manner. I explained that a large part of the Jews still living in the towns were tradesmen and families of tradesmen respectively. But these Jewish tradesmen were not simply expendable because they were indispensable for maintaining the economic life. Furthermore, I pointed out that White Ruthenian tradesmen are so to say non-existent, that therefore all vital plants had to be shut down all at once, if all Jews would be liquidated. At the end of our conference, I mentioned that all tradesmen and specialists, inasmuch as they were indispensable, had papers of identification and that these should not be pulled out of the factories. Furthermore, it was agreed that all Jews still living in the town should first be brought into the ghetto in order to segregate them, especially with regard to the families of tradesmen which I did not want to have liquidated either. Two of my officials should be assigned to segregate them. The commander did not in any way contradict my idea and I had therefore the firm belief that the action would be carried out accordingly. However, a few hours after the beginning of the action the greatest difficulties already developed. I noticed that the commander had not at all abided by our agreement. All Jews without exception were taken out of the factories and shops and deported in spite of our agreement. It is true that part of the Jews was moved by way of the ghetto where many of them were processed and still segregated by me, but a large part was loaded directly on trucks and liquidated without further delay outside of the town. Shortly after noon complaints came already from all sides that the factories could not function any more because all Jewish tradesmen had been removed. As the commander had proceeded on his way to Baranowitschi I got in touch with the deputy commander, a captain, after searching a long time, and demanded to stop the action immediately because my instructions had been disregarded and the damage done so far with respect to the economic life could not be repaired anymore. The captain was greatly surprised at my idea and stated that he had received orders from the commander to clear the whole town of Jews without exception in the same manner as they had done in other towns. This mopping up had to be executed on political considerations and economic reasons had never played a role anywhere. However, due to my energetic intervention, he finally halted the action toward evening.

For the rest, as regards the execution of the action, I must point out to my deepest regret that the latter bordered already on sadism. The town itself offered a picture of horror during the action. With indescribable brutality on the part of both the German police officers and particularly the Lithuanian partisans, the Jewish people, but also among them White Ruthenians, were taken out of their dwellings and herded together. Everywhere in the town shots were to be heard and in different streets the corpses of shot Jews accumulated. The White Ruthenians were in greatest distress to free themselves from the encirclement. Regardless of the fact that the Jewish people, among whom were also tradesmen, were mistreated in a terribly barbarous way in the face of the White Ruthenian people, the White Ruthenians themselves were also worked over with rubber clubs and rifle butts. There was no question of an action against the Jews any more. It rather looked like a revolution. I myself with all my officials have been in it without interruption all day long in order to save what could yet be saved. In several instances I literally had to expel with drawn pistol the German police officials as well as the Lithuanian partisans from the shops. My own police was employed for the same mission but had often to leave the streets on account of the wild shooting in order to avoid being shot themselves. The whole picture was generally more than ghastly. In the afternoon a great number of abandoned Panje carriages with horses were standing in the streets so that I had to instruct the municipal administration to take care of the vehicles immediately. Afterwards it was ascertained that they were Jewish vehicles ordered by the armed forces to move ammunition. The drivers had simply been taken off the carriages and led away, and nobody had worried in the least about the vehicles.

I was not present at the shooting before the town. Therefore I cannot make a statement on its brutality. But it should suffice, if I point out that persons shot have worked themselves out of their graves some time after they had been covered. Regarding the economic damage I want to state that the tanner has been affected worst of all. 26 experts worked there. Of them, fifteen of the best specialists alone have been shot. Four more jumped from the truck during the transport and escaped, while seven others were not apprehended after they fled. The plant barely continues to operate today. Five wheelwrights worked in the wheelwright shop. Four of them have been shot and the shop has to keep going now with one wheelwright. Additional tradesmen such as carpenters, blacksmiths, etc. are still missing. Up till now it was impossible for me to obtain an exact survey. I have mentioned already in the beginning, that the families of tradesmen should be spared too. But now it seems that almost in all families some persons are missing. Reports come in from all over, making it clear that in one family the tradesman himself, in another family the wife and in the next one again the children are missing. In that way, almost all families have been broken up. It seems to be very doubtful whether under these circumstances the remaining tradesmen will show any interest in their work and produce accordingly, particularly as even today they are running around with bloody and bruised faces due to the brutality. The White Ruthenian people who had full confidence in us, are dumbfounded. Though they are intimidated and don't dare to utter their free opinion, one has already heard that they take the viewpoint that this day does not add to the glory of Germany and that it will not be forgotten. I am of the opinion that much has been destroyed through this action which we have achieved during the last months and that it will take a long time until we shall regain the confidence of the population which we have lost.

In conclusion I find myself obliged to point out that the police battalion has looted in an unheard of manner during the action, and that not only in Jewish houses but just the same in those of the White Ruthenians. Anything of use such as boots, leather, cloth, gold and other valuables, has been taken away. On the basis of statements of members of the armed forces, watches were torn off the arms of Jews in public, on the street, and rings were pulled off the fingers in the most brutal manner. A major of the finance department reported that a Jewish girl was asked by the police to obtain immediately 5,000 rubles to have her father released. This girl is said to have actually gone everywhere in order to obtain the money.

Also within the ghetto, the different barracks which had been nailed up by the civil administration and were furnished with Jewish furniture, have been broken open and robbed. Even from the barracks in which the unit was quartered, window frames and doors have been forcibly removed and used for campfires. Although I had a discussion with the adjutant of the commander on Tuesday morning concerning the looting and he promised in the course of the discussion that none of the policemen would enter the town anymore. yet I was forced several hours later to arrest two fully armed Lithuanian partisans because they were apprehended looting. During the night from Tuesday to Wednesday the battalion left the town in the direction of Baranowitschi. Evidently, the people were only too glad when this report circulated in the town.

So far the report. I shall come to Minsk in the immediate future in order to discuss the affair personally once again. At the present time, I am not in a position to continue with the action against the Jews. First, order has to be established again. I hope that I shall be able to restore order as soon as possible and also to revive the economic life despite the difficulties. Only, I beg you to grant me one request: "In the future, keep this police battalion away from me by all means."

signed: Carl

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#14

Post by michael mills » 03 Nov 2002, 03:18

The two day massacre of Jews at Slutsk in October 1941 has been part of the historical record since the Nuremberg Trials.
Yes, but how can we be certain that this particular recently discovered mass-grave contains the victims of that particular massacre?

After, Blobel and his boys are supposed to have dug up all, or most, of the mass graves left by the Einsatzgruppen and other German police formations and cremated the remains. It seems hardly likely that the bodies left by such a highly publicised massacre as that at Slutzk would have been one of the ones they missed.

And even if Blobel's boys had missed this particular grave, surely Soviet investigators would have discovered it immediately after the Red Army recaptured the town. Soviet investigators found large numbers of graves and grave-sites immediately after the war, based on testimony from the local people who had witnessed the events. Given that the Slutzk massacre was carried out so publicly, there must have been scores of townspeople who could have told the investigators where the bodies were buried.

If Soviet investigators did not find this mass-grave after the war, and it was not discovered until now, it suggests that the Soviet authorities did not want to find it. That in turn suggest that the grave is evidence of Soviet malfeasance rather than German.

The article says the mass-grave was found on a military base. Whose base? A base of the former Soviet Army? If that is the case, it is even more strange that the grave was not discovered before now, if it was created by the German occupiers.

Again, the location of the grave on a military base suggests that it contains the bodies of victims of Soviet reprisals after the reconquest of the town of Slutzk by the Red Army. It is well-known that whenever the Red Army retook a town from the Germans, it was followed by NKVD formations who executed anybody even remotely suspected of having collaborated, including women and children. For example, when the Red Army recaptured Khar'kov at the beginning of 1943, several thousand citizens were shot by the NKVD units as "traitors"; their bodies were discovered by the Germans when they retook the city shortly afterward.

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#15

Post by Charles Bunch » 03 Nov 2002, 05:18

michael mills wrote:
The two day massacre of Jews at Slutsk in October 1941 has been part of the historical record since the Nuremberg Trials.
Yes, but how can we be certain that this particular recently discovered mass-grave contains the victims of that particular massacre?
What evidence do you have for other massacres in Slutsk, massacres remembered and testified to by eyewitnesses, and with a grave site remembered by townsfolk?
After, Blobel and his boys are supposed to have dug up all, or most, of the mass graves left by the Einsatzgruppen and other German police formations and cremated the remains. It seems hardly likely that the bodies left by such a highly publicised massacre as that at Slutzk would have been one of the ones they missed.
Supposition without evidence. Is this all you ever do?

Somehow the same well known massacre that makes it unlikely to you that Blobel didn't cremate the bodies, is not so well known that a mass grave discovered and identified by residents as the place they buried the Jews could indeed be that.

But I suppose it is more likely that the people in that grave are not Jews, about whose murder and mass burial documentary and testimonial evidence exists, than it is likely that it is someone else, for which no evidence has been presented.

You really are transparent.

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