The most reliable Holocaust statistics on WEB.

[David Thompson]

Two posts from wingray, containing insulting personal remarks about other posters, were removed pursuant to a prior warning at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1793684.

An off-topic opinion post from Safety First was removed pursuant to the prior warning at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1804159.

Gentlemen -- Sufficient unto the day is the rubbish thereof. Please don't add to it.

[ChristopherPerrien]

My apologies for being here in the H+WC , My comments yesterday were a off-the- cuff reply to another post in another forum area. I have no interest in debating the "numbers". We have had far more knowledgeable people and many topics discussing the figures.

Consider my post as such. It was "rough" because it was fast, However It was not meant to start a flame war here in the H+WC.

Regards,
Chris

[bluespaceoddity]

My apologies for being here in the H+WC , My comments yesterday were a off-the- cuff reply to another post in another forum area. I have no interest in debating the "numbers". We have had far more knowledgeable people and many topics discussing the figures.

Consider my post as such. It was "rough" because it was fast, However It was not meant to start a flame war here in the H+WC.

Regards,
Chris

Feel free to delete your comments added "inadvertently" under those circumstances - using the edit function or by asking a moderator to delete them for you.

[ChristopherPerrien]

My apologies for being here in the H+WC , My comments yesterday were a off-the- cuff reply to another post in another forum area. I have no interest in debating the "numbers". We have had far more knowledgeable people and many topics discussing the figures.

Consider my post as such. It was "rough" because it was fast, However It was not meant to start a flame war here in the H+WC.

Regards,
Chris

Feel free to delete your comments added "inadvertently" under those circumstances - using the edit function or by asking a moderator to delete them for you.

Stay around a few years. I was "in these trenches" here long ago.

[David Thompson]

Another off-topic post from Safety First was removed by this moderator, pursuant to earlier warnings - DT.

[snpol]

BBC in its editorial article (absolutely rightfully) points to the low level of Holocaust education in the UK.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47015184

Five per cent of UK adults do not believe the Holocaust took place and one in 12 believes its scale has been exaggerated, a survey has found.

Almost two-thirds of respondents could not say how many Jews were murdered or "grossly" under-estimated the number.

However, sadly the level of Holocaust education of BBC editors and journalists is also very low.

Six million Jews were murdered in Nazi death camps, including Auschwitz-Birkenau, during World War Two

It is clear why (thank God only) minority think that number of Holocaust victims is inflated.
Such an absurd number on the site of respectable BBC looks as Holocaust anti-education.

[David Thompson]

Two off-topic opinion posts from jesk were removed pursuant to forum rules.

3. Opinions

Since the purpose of this section of the forum is to exchange information and hold informed discussions about historical problems, posts which express unsolicited opinions without supporting facts and sources do not promote the purposes of the forum. Consequently, such posts are subject to deletion after a warning to the poster.

app.php/rules

[NickA]

The 430,000 number does have a basis in the reports made to the Hungarian Government by Ferenczy, the commander of the Hungarian Gendarmerie who was actually responsible for rounding up the Jews and putting them on the deportation trains, and in similar reports by the German plenipotentiary in Hungary, Veesenmeyer, quoting figures which must have been derived ultimately from Ferenczy.
However, those reports do not specify that the deportees were sent to Auschwitz, but only to the Reich, leaving open the possibility that some of the deportation trains went directly to destinations in Germany, rather than to Auschwitz.

This 2001 book puts the official German number at 437,000 - plus some more - and reckons all of them went directly to their deaths.

"The Gold Train, the Becher Case and the Wealth of Hungarian Jews" by GÁBOR KÁDÁR and ZOLTÁN VÁGI" Central European University Press, Budapest New York ©2001 by GÁBOR KÁDÁR and ZOLTÁN VÁGI. English translation © by ENIKÔ KONCZ, JIM TUCKER and ANDRÁS KÁDÁR 2004 (sub-titled "Self-financing Genocide").

p.76 SELF-FINANCING GENOCIDE
The decree began as follows: "The Hungarian Royal government will cleanse the country of Jews within a short time. I hereby order the cleansing to be conducted district by district, as a result of which Jews must be taken to the designated collection camps regardless of their gender and age." As at this time Endre was, formally speaking, still only a Sub-prefect delegated to the Ministry of the Interior, and was to receive his official appointment as State Secretary only a few days later, the decree was signed by political State Secretary László Baky. Over the next few weeks events were taking place with a speed, which was unprecedented even in the history of the Holocaust.

Although the official decree about the ghettoizing of Jews was published only on April 28, pursuant to the secret decree, the process had started already on April 16, and it was basically completed in 6 weeks, with the exception of Budapest and its surroundings. On May 15 the mass deportation of Jews started, and within another 56 days a record number of Hungarian Jews left Hungary: 437,000 according to official German records, but in reality 450,000, including the 11,000-12,000 Jews who were arrested and deported due to the German "single operations" (Einzelaktionen). Approximately 95-96 percent of them emerged from their railway wagons on the Jewish ramp of Auschwitz-Birkenau after a horrific journey lasting two or three days, only to disappear for the most part without trace through the chimneys of crematoria within a few hours after their arrival.

So the first problem with seizing the wealth of the Jews was excessive speed. Thanks to the smooth cooperation between the Sondereinsatzkommando, Eichmann and the Hungarian Ministry of the Interior, the dynamics of expropriation could not keep up with the speed of the deportations. The systematic removal of nearly half a million people from their homes started before a governing principle could be worked out from the heap of various ordinances about the reception, management, storage, and future of the huge amount of wealth they were leaving behind. In the absence of such regulatory principles the controlled implementation of a task of this magnitude could not be ensured. All this did not mean of course that the looting of Jews did not take place. On the contrary, it did happen, and there can be no doubt about its totality. But often it looked like there was no homogeneous central driving force behind what was in fact happening, but rather a confusion born of the implementation of a myriad of local, ad-hoc ideas and proposals about how the situation should be managed.

[NickA]

BBC in its editorial article (absolutely rightfully) points to the low level of Holocaust education in the UK. Five per cent of UK adults do not believe the Holocaust took place ... Almost two-thirds of respondents could not say how many Jews were murdered or "grossly" under-estimated the number ... However, sadly the level of Holocaust education of BBC editors and journalists is also very low.

Six million Jews were murdered in Nazi death camps, including Auschwitz-Birkenau, during World War Two

It is clear why (thank God only) minority think that number of Holocaust victims is inflated. Such an absurd number on the site of respectable BBC looks as Holocaust anti-education. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47015184

Contrary to what you may have thought - the BBC statement appears to be backed by the latest scholarship.
I cannot get an explanation for the new death toll - but its in the book by Deborah Lipstadt "Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory".

On the cover of that book (though strangely, not inside that I can find!) it states that Holocaust Deniers are:

"those who insist that the death of six million Jews in Nazi concentration camps is nothing but a hoax perpetrated by a powerful Zionist conspiracy"

This precise wording was picked up thousands of times in Google Search when I first saw it (though the ghits have mysteriously dropped to 92 now).

As you've said - the new figure conflicts with what we've been taught, since there were "at least" 2.8 million Jews died in camps and up to 2.2 million died in the "Holocaust of Bullets" (plus some more bringing the number to around 6 million). Lipstadt's figure that the BBC has copied would suggest that the real scale of the Holocaust was 9 million.

However, I have been unable to get any explanation of where this inflation comes from. And its not for lack of trying on my part.

[snpol]

Contrary to what you may have thought - the BBC statement appears to be backed by the latest scholarship.

It looks that you don't see my point.
Now 6 mln. is widely regarded by historians as estimate of ALL Holocaust victims including murdered, exposed to die outside concentration camps - during death marches, in ghettoes, as a result of mass executions.
So 6 mln. Jews died only in the camps looks as number taken from nowhere, not backed by any serious historical research.
And note, it is claimed by BBC. From my point of view it is anti-contribution the the Holocaust education. One can ask a natural question. Yesterday you said that there were 6 mln. of Holocaust victims (including those who died in the camps). Today you say that only in the camps 6 mln. died. So even once you lied.

[David Thompson]

snpol -- You wrote:

Yesterday you said that there were 6 mln. of Holocaust victims (including those who died in the camps). Today you say that only in the camps 6 mln. died. So even once you lied.

Mind your manners. A lie is not the only explanation for a contradiction in expression.