The most reliable Holocaust statistics on WEB.

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Sergey
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Post by Sergey » 15 May 2006 12:40

Nickterry!

Thank you for this so detailed answer. Frankly speaking, I feel myself (at least slightly) guilty that the answer consumed so much your valuable time.

Previously I though that NIZKOR is a reliable source of information. Now it is not so obvious for me.

By the way, just few minutes ago I read this article

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060514/ap_ ... N5bmNhdA--

It appears, that Holocaust reseachers have problems to access some documents.
Ten Cate is especially interested in the cabinet that holds copies of the Jewish Council's files. Among its contents, he believes, are the names of the few Dutch Jews who could travel freely and who enjoyed other privileges under the Nazi occupation.

Examining those records "will give us insight into the politics of divide and rule by the Nazis — which groups had higher or lower chances of survival," he said.

"I was astonished to find it in Bad Arolsen. The Red Cross in The Hague didn't let me see the original cabinet," Ten Cate said.

Much of the information on Jewish victims in Bad Arolsen already is duplicated in the huge archives at Yad Vashem memorial in Jerusalem and the Holocaust Museum in Washington.

nickterry
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Post by nickterry » 15 May 2006 12:46

Sergey,

if I may point you at two pieces I wrote on the Arolsen story:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -cold.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... names.html

Incidentally, I found since writing these that the Arolsen archive provided information to the official Polish historical commission which wrote a 1979 encyclopedia of camps and ghettos, but not for all camps or all ghettos - just most of them. So it will be very interesting to see what else is hiding away inside the Arolsen archive.

Houwink ten Cate is an interesting character. A chain-smoker, but otherwise cool :wink:

Sergey
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Post by Sergey » 15 May 2006 13:25

nickterry wrote:Sergey,

if I may point you at two pieces I wrote on the Arolsen story:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -cold.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... names.html

Incidentally, I found since writing these that the Arolsen archive provided information to the official Polish historical commission which wrote a 1979 encyclopedia of camps and ghettos, but not for all camps or all ghettos - just most of them. So it will be very interesting to see what else is hiding away inside the Arolsen archive.

Houwink ten Cate is an interesting character. A chain-smoker, but otherwise cool :wink:
Incredible! So this archive is very huge, very important, could shed light on many white areas of war history. And still it is practically unavailable for many reseachers. I couldn't even imagine that it is possible.

nickterry
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Post by nickterry » 15 May 2006 14:37

Sergey wrote:
nickterry wrote:Sergey,

if I may point you at two pieces I wrote on the Arolsen story:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -cold.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... names.html

Incidentally, I found since writing these that the Arolsen archive provided information to the official Polish historical commission which wrote a 1979 encyclopedia of camps and ghettos, but not for all camps or all ghettos - just most of them. So it will be very interesting to see what else is hiding away inside the Arolsen archive.

Houwink ten Cate is an interesting character. A chain-smoker, but otherwise cool :wink:
Incredible! So this archive is very huge, very important, could shed light on many white areas of war history. And still it is practically unavailable for many reseachers. I couldn't even imagine that it is possible.
Privacy concerns were the predominant issue behind closing Arolsen to open access. That, and fear of compensation claims. In practice, those seeking compensation claims had to rely on Arolsen finding the data themselves and letting them know - yet that could take sometimes years. Since the last deadlines for compensation claims are due imminently, this concern is falling away.

Also, if you read what I wrote in those links, you'll know that many of the most important files were already copied to Yad Vashem and NARA/USHMM. There are others however which have ended up in Red Cross hands, as for example some of the files of the Amsterdam Jewish Council which ten Cate wants to see. God knows what else is in there that they've been sitting on.

The other point to make is that the same goes for a hell of a lot of other displaced persons groups - foreign labourers, DPs, refugees, expellees from Eastern Europe. There is probably a ton of information there for all kinds of historians.

And alas, archives can easily be closed. Soviet archives were inaccessible for 50 years, the British have a 30 year rule and for especially sensitive stuff, a 50, 60, 75 and I think even a 100 year rule. There's going to be a certain number of revelations due about the Second World War in the British press starting 2014 to 2020 because of the 75 year rule.

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Re: The most reliable Holocaust statistics on WEB.

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 15 May 2006 15:35

Sergey wrote:). Number of died by natural causes (in each country).

I seek results by serious Holocaust reseachers.
Good Luck.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 May 2006 15:41

Incredible!
Wow, what a thread. So many new, incredible things for Sergey ;-)

Sergey
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Post by Sergey » 15 May 2006 18:59

Sergey Romanov wrote:
Incredible!
Wow, what a thread. So many new, incredible things for Sergey ;-)
A word 'невероятно' (I translated it as 'incredible') has two meanings in Russian (in this context):

1) I didn't believe before that it is possible.
2) I suspected something of this sort but real situation is even more worse that my worst expectations.

I meant namely option #2.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 May 2006 19:22

Well, I suspected this is so. :wink:

I may be wrong, but I suspect you're some sort of a "Holocaust skeptic" (i.e. a denier). Sorry if I'm wrong 8-)

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Post by Sergey » 15 May 2006 19:54

Sergey Romanov wrote:Well, I suspected this is so. :wink:

I may be wrong, but I suspect you're some sort of a "Holocaust skeptic" (i.e. a denier). Sorry if I'm wrong 8-)
Me? A Holocaust denier? May I show you a real Holocaust denier?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull
Alabama attorney general candidate denies Holocaust
...
In an interview Friday, Darby said he believed that no more than 140,000 Jews died in Europe during World War II, and most of them succumbed to typhus.
...
The Alabama state Democratic chairman, Joe Turnham, said the party began an investigation...
Simply, years of Pravda-reading in Soviet times taught me that if I see a printed statement then it is only possible that it is true.

I'm not a historian, I haven't own opinion. I haven't access to historical documents. But I have right to apply a common sense and do a simple math. If it means to be a Holocaust denier then those who think this way live in the Orwellian World.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 May 2006 20:13

As I said, I am sorry if I'm wrong. :wink:

It's just that you make your "incredible" emphasis on not very relevant aspects, frankly. And this is all too familiar to me :wink:

So there is no authoritative source of Holocaust statistics on the Web. Shock! Incredible! (Speculative reading between the lines: "the whole story must be suspect then".) Frankly, if you want some hard data, find Benz's book. Not everything can be found on the Net.
Last edited by Sergey Romanov on 15 May 2006 20:14, edited 1 time in total.

nickterry
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Post by nickterry » 15 May 2006 20:14

Simply, years of Pravda-reading in Soviet times taught me that if I see a printed statement then it is only possible that it is true.
This I can appreciate and understand. Too many tall tales were told with statistics in Soviet times. But sadly, on this subject, even Soviet historians were right about what happened in the Great Patriotic War under the German occupation. And the same with the Holocaust.

Sergey Romanov, you should give people a bit more of a chance.

Sergey without the surname, you are asking good questions about the information but remember, always see how the results were arrived at. That means reading around a bit more, whether online or in books.

It also means being aware of how the numbers are defined. Hungary is the best example possible - depending on where the borders are drawn pre, during or postwar, you will get different answers. Nobody can doubt or dispute that nearly 430,000 Jews living in 1944 Hungarian borders were deported to Auschwitz in three months, or that 320,000 were killed on arrival, but it is perfectly possible to be unsure whether these 430,000 or 320,000 were originally Slovak, Hungarian or Romanian nationality.

Sergey
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Post by Sergey » 16 May 2006 04:45

Sergey Romanov wrote:It's just that you make your "incredible" emphasis on not very relevant aspects
We have to agree to disagree there. They are very relevant aspects from my point of view.
Sergey Romanov wrote:...reading between the lines: "the whole story must be suspect then".
I think that some parts of the story maybe have been described not correctly. By the way I'm sure that you have the very same opinion.

As for your kind proposition to find the book and read it, then many thanks. But let me express (once again) my position:

Taking into account that there exist a dence net of Holocaust centres, special Holocaust institutes, I may suggests thousands of Holocaust reseachers, it would be logical to expect a detailed study on the web.

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Post by nickterry » 16 May 2006 11:10

Sergey wrote: Taking into account that there exist a dence net of Holocaust centres, special Holocaust institutes, I may suggests thousands of Holocaust reseachers, it would be logical to expect a detailed study on the web.
Why? The Internet has really only been going for a decade in something like its current form, most academics pre-date its arrival and have not adapted to it. Also, the imperative to publish in print form makes the internet a less attractive place for academic researchers to publish their work. It doesn't score as highly, if at all, when research centres are applying for funding from governments and private sources. And most research on the Holocaust is conducted by ordinary university history departments, not by USHMM or Yad Vashem.

Also, the logic of the internet militates against the kind of detailed, sourced information available in libraries. How much easier to reprint a list of countries with 'source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust'. Try Googling that phrase and see how often it comes up.

It's only arguably in the last few years, since perhaps the turn of the millennium, when Acrobat has become available and the net has become so much more intensively used, that people are turning to it more and more for the library-type function of 'what information is there on this'.

You try finding accurate, more detailed information on many comparable subjects - e.g. Soviet military losses - in English and you'll get the same result.

That would be a good comparison: the numbers are similarly large. The information available in Grif sekretnoye sniat and Rossiia v XX vek - poterii vooruzhenskikh sil, in both cases, the data is broken down by time period and region, and is known to experts. Lucky for Russian speakers someone scanned these books with OCR and placed them on the web. But try finding all this information in one place, in English, and it will be much harder.

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Post by Sergey » 16 May 2006 12:45

Nickterry!

I understand your answer and it would be a logical end of the discussion.

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Post by nickterry » 16 May 2006 13:30

Sergey,

I too share your concern that there is not something easily digestible on the internet concerning Jewish losses, that is as up-to-date and accurate as possible. But this will change, and when it does, I will post the link here. :wink:

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