Eisenhowers guilt?

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Kaisertreue
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To Roberto

Post by Kaisertreue » 02 Nov 2002 16:24

You've posted some interesting quotes, but by themselves they prove nothing, they're just assumptions and rough calculations. The panel of historians may well be biased themselves against Bacque simply because they would end up looking stupid - which they obviously don't want.
And yes, Overmans and other 'establishment' historians are paid and financed by the German government who wouold prefer to forget the past and follow other agendas. You can say what you want but I smell a cover up on this issue. This is just my view - I don't want to make a big argument of this, since I have my opinion and you have yours. You choose to believe that endless millions were vapourised by the Nazis and I'll continue to believe that the French and Americans committed grave and hidden war crimes at the war's end.

Goodday.

POW
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Post by POW » 02 Nov 2002 16:28

Since several years I collect information's regarding German POWs. I think it is a good idea to let former POWs tell us about the conditions in the camps:

1. Capitulation
Unter Schreien, Schlagen, Schießen, Bajonettstichen sind wir wie Vieh auf einen Acker bei Siershahn im Westerwald getrieben worden, der mit Stacheldraht umgeben war
Das Lager bei Fürstenfeldbruck in Bayern war nicht umzäunt. Es standen Panzer bereit und Maschinengewehre. Um Ausbruchsversuche zu verhindern, fegen Maschinengewehrsalven in Mannshöhe über die Gefangenen, die am Boden oder in Erdlöchern kauern ...

Wiederholt liegen am Morgen Tote und Verwundete auf den Ackern, die von Salven getroffen wurden. Kein Zaun: Es wurde also geschossen, um die Flucht oder Ausbrüche zu verhindern ... Bewachende: Amerikaner. Aufgrund der Umstände war ärztliche Fürsorge nicht möglich. Ich wollte nachts einen Mann, dem der Fuß zerschossen wurde, zu einem Posten tragen; es war unmöglich, da sofort geschossen wurde, wenn sich jemand erhob
Die Amerikaner, die uns erwischt hatten, waren nicht etwa an Waffen interessiert, sondern suchten bei jedem von uns nur nach Uhren und Schmuck. Nachdem sie da ihre Gelüste befriedigt hatten, zeigten sie weiter kein Interesse mehr an uns und ließen uns sogar, als der Ort dann in Sicht kam, allein weiterlaufen. Meine Pistole habe ich noch im Lager Koblenz gehabt, so genau waren die Kontrollen in den ersten Lagern.
also actions of humanity
In einem Doef warf eine Bauersfrau einen großen Laib brot auf den Wagen vor uns. Sie hatte jedoch ihr Ziel verfehlt, und der Laib fiel hinter dem Wagen auf die Straße. Der schwarze Fahrer unseres Wagens fuhr jedoch nicht darüber hinweg, sondern hielt kurz an, sprang auf die Straße, hob den Laib auf und reichte ihn zu uns herauf.
2. Lodging
Very typical were statements like this:
Jeder Kompanie wurde mit einer Armbewegung ein Stück Gelände zugeteilt, auf dem wir uns einrichten sollten. Es war ein freies Feld. Niemand besaß einen Spaten, die meisten auch keine Zeltplane oder Decke. So standen wir lange Zeit still und gedankenverloren bis an die Waden im Dreck. Bis zum 6. Mai regnete es Tag und Nacht. Was das unter den obwaltenden Umständen hieß, kann sich kein Außenstehender vorstellen. In den ersten beiden Tagen und der dazwischenliegenden Nacht hatte ich immer gestanden. In der nächsten Nacht legte ich mich vor Müdigkeit und Schwäche in den Dreck und schlief. Am 2. Mai fingen wir an, uns mit den Händen und Scherben im Dreck eine Mulde zu kratzen, um vor dem Wind etwas Schutz zu haben. Die Folge war, daß die Mulde voll Wasser lief, während wir drin lagen. Bei diesem Leben waren wir alle einfach verzweifelt.
In der ersten Nacht - es hatte mittelstarker Regen geherrscht - bildete ich mit zwei Kameraden gewissermaßen eine Pyramide. Wir standen so, die Köpfe dicht nebeneinander, wobei ich meinen Mantel über meinen Nachbar schlug, um auch ihn vor der durchdringenden Nässe zu schützen, bis zum dämmernden Morgen.
When it was raining...
...stürzten oft nachts die Erdlöcher ein und die Kriegsgefangenen wurden begraben und erstickten. Einmal kamen so 7 Kriegsgefangene auf einmal um. Ich vermute, daß noch mancher Einzelgänger nie gefunden wurde und noch jetzt dort begraben liegt. Ich habe z.B. einen solchen Einzelgänger als es Verpflegung gab, aufgefordert, aus seinem Loch herauszukommen, um seine Ration zu empfangen. Er war zu schwach dazu und sagte: Für mich ist es aus, ich kann nicht mehr. Am nächstenTag war er nicht mehr zu finden.
3. Clothing
Die Ausrüstung derjenigen Soldaten, die nicht wie wir kapituliert hatten, sondern irgendwie aufgegriffen oder nach einer Kampfhandlung gefangengenommen worden waren, war oft äußerst primitiv. Kein Mantel, keine Mütze, kein Rock, in manchen Fällen nur Zivilkleidung und Straßenschuhe.
Caldric's soldiers:
Im Lager Heidesheim gab es Greise und Jungen von und unter 14 Jahren, die teilweise nur mit Pyjama bekleidet waren, da sie wegen Wehrwolfverdacht nachts verhaftet und abtransportiert worden waren.
4. Food
In Bad Kreuznach the prisoners saw after 6 weeks for the fist time bread and that was a "sensation". Daily rations were:
3 Eßlöffel Gemüse, 1 Löffel Fisch, 1-2 Backpflaumen, 1 Löffel Marmelade, 4-6 Kekse, natürlich alles kalt aus Büchsen. Es wird auch mal an Stelle des Fisches vielleicht ein Span Käse ausgegeben oder ähnlich gewechselt.
Die Erfolge sieht man auch. Jeden Morgen werden einige Gefangene zum Tor getragen. Wahrscheinlich tot oder kurz davor. Zum Hunger kommt der Durst. Mit Wasserwagen wird das Wasser an den Zaun gefahren, an einem einzigen Hahn ist Wasserausgabe. Ein Trinkbecher pro Tag und Mann ist viel.
Jedem war aller Besitz bis auf die Personalpapiere, Geld und sonstige persönliche Dinge abgenommen worden. Keiner besaß daher ein Messer, mit welchem das Brot hätte geschnitten werden können. Auch da ist mir ein glücklicher Zufall zur Hilfe gekommen. Ich fand eine auf dem Boden liegende Nagelfeile, und mit dieser feilte ich den Stiel meines Löffels - den Löffel hatte ich seit langem zum Suppenessen, das in Saarbrücken an die wenigen Bewohner verabreicht worden war, bei mir getragen - zu einer ,Schneide'. Damit schnitt ich das Brot unter schärfster Bewachung der Empfänger in zehn möglichst gleiche Teile. Verlangende Hände sorgten dafür, daß keine Brosamen zu Boden fielen. Die einzelnen Brotstücke wurden daraufhin verlost.
Sometimes grotesque situations:
Obwohl im Lager Böhl/iggelheim die Wasserleitung dauernt abgesperrt war und nicht einmal der Durst gelöscht werden konnte wurden zu dieser Zeit täglich 1 bis 2 Riegel Kernseife ausgegeben
Nach Angaben unserer Ärzte erhielten wir ca. 800 Kalorien täglich. 20% von uns waren skelettiert, 60% unterernährt und 20% noch leidlich.
The best evidence is this diary. This can be seen as typical and shows how the situation changed in '45:
2. 7. [19]45: Es gibt eine wunderbare Verpflegung!!!! 1 V2 Keks, 1 Teelöffel Zucker, 2 Löffel Fleisch mit Kartoffeln ...
3. 7. 45: ... Heute morgen gibt es sogar warmen Kaffee... Abends gibt es 1/2 l Erbsensuppe, 2 Löffel Fleisch, 1 Teelöffel Zucker, 2 1/2 Kekse, etwas Kaffeepulver.
4. 7. 45: ... Morgens gibt es warmen Kaffee und abends 1/2 1 Suppe. Endlich gibt es 1 Stück Weißbrot, 1 1/8 Keks, 1 1/2 Löffel Fleisch, 2 Teelöffel Zukker, Kaffeemehl ...Am Nachmittag gelingt es mir, während des Kaffeeholens in der Ami-Küche Kartoffelschalen zu organisieren. Ins Lager zurückgekehrt, habe ich mir nur ein Teil dieser Schalen im Wasser gekocht und diese Kartoffelsuppe gegessen. Gott sei Dank, daß ich etwas Salz bei mir habe...Da wir Zucker und dergleichen bekommen, versuchen wir, uns selbst kleine Mahlzeiten herzustellen...
5. 7. 45: ... Die Verpflegung besteht heute aus: 2 x 1/2 1 Milchsuppe, 1/2 1 Erbsensuppe, 12 Mann ein Brot, 1 3/4 Keks, Zucker, Kaffee, Fleisch, etwas Pfirsiche in Büchsen.
6. 7. 45: ... Wir erhalten 1/4 Weißbrot, 2 x Suppe, Fleisch, Käse, Zucker Usw. wie üblich..
The second part of this diary was written in Andernach (Rhine):
9. 5. [19]45: Ein harter Tag! Die Verpflegung kommt nicht ran! Erst gegen 16 Uhr beginnt man mit der Ausgabe. Wie läuft mir das Wasser im Mund zusammen, als zwei Frauen ihren Männern Brot, Fleisch und Saft an den Zaun bringen - der Posten ist großzügig -. Woher die Frauen bescheid wissen?
11. 5. 45: Gott sei Dank! Die tägliche Hetze mit dem Wasserholen, wie sie im alten Lager bestand, hat ein Ende! Das tägliche 'let's go - go on' ist verstummt. Wasser holen wir nach Bedarf. Verpflegung wird rangeschafft... Verpflegung leicht gebessert. Es soll sogar - sagt man - Rauchwaren geben! ...
12. 5. 45: Arbeitseinsatz auf dem Holzplatz. Es gibt zusätzlich 2 Büchsell Verpflegung und eine Zigarette!
13. 5. 45: Erster Sonntag im Camp Andernach. Vorzügliches Mittagessen. Bohnensuppe, Puffer, Pudding mit Aprikosen. Alles selbst gefertigt. Ein, Hoch unserem 1. Koch [name]. Abends Kartoffeln und Fleisch, Gemlüse, Milchtrunk und Einlage! Verpflegung jetzt knapp ausreichend!
15. 5. 45: ... Verpflegung befriedigend, um die sich alles dreht! Reichlich Kartoffeln! Man vermißt nur das liebe Brot ... Wir haben keinen Boden im Magen. Ich möchte mich an Rüben satt essen können.
17. 5. 45: ... Wieder ein guter Tag mit 1/4 Weißbrot, Schmalz und Käse, wie es jetzt alle Wochen zweimal vorkommt. Verpflegung befriedigend. Kochkünstler Niko zaubert schmackhafte Gerichte hervor, rein aus dem Nichts!...
20. 5. 45: Pfingstsonntag! ... Beim Verpflegungsernpfang enttäuschte Gesichter! Man hatte von zusätzlicher Verpflegung gesprochen. Auch das Rote Kreuz hält sich passiv...
21. 5. 45: ... Weißbrot und Schmalz zum Frühstück.
22. 5. 45: ... Verpflegung heute gut. Niko hat seine Sache gut gemacht.
23. 5. 45: Der Tag stand im Zeichen guter Gerichte. Quer durch unsere Stellage: 7 Uhr Kaffee mit Milch und Zucker, 8 Uhr Milchsuppe mit Nudeln und Weizen, 12 Uhr Bohnensuppe, gewürzt mit Thymian, 14 Uhr Pfannkuchen mit Korinthen, 18 Uhr Eintopf (Fleisch und verschiedene Gemüse), 20 Uhr Milchsuppe mit Einlage (nicht zu definieren - Geheimrezept Niko), 21 Uhr Kaffee mit Milch und Zucker. Gut, daß es reichlich Wasser gibt = 99% der Gerichte!
Unsere Wasserrationen pro Tag 4 Liter. Wir kommen nicht damit aus. Von allem gibt es nur eine kleine Kostprobe. Die Qualität der Nahrungsmittel ist gut, Quantität nicht ganz ausreichend, das ist in allem so Ami-Art. Die haben gut schlecken. Sie haben Fett, was uns so bitter fehlt. Auf meinen Rippen kann man Zither spielen! Viele meinen, das sei unsere Henkersmahlzeit ...
25. 5. 45: ... Mittagsmahl: weiße Bohnen mit Thymiangewürz.
26. 5. 45: ... ab heute will man uns täglich eine Schnitte Brot geben...
27. 5. 45: ... Seit gestern gibt es für drei Mann 1/2 Normalbrot. Das hat bisher gefehlt.
28. 5. 45: Zusätzlich Weißbrot, vielleicht um uns chausseefest zu machen...
29. 5. 45: Wieder gut gegessen. Puffer und Omelette waren die Höhe der Gefühle... Es gibt Brot, das söhnt mit manchem aus!
31. 5. 45: Fronleichnam - Maiandacht. Ein prima Speiseplan. Als Nachtisch Pfannkuchen mit Zuckerkaffee...

Charles Bunch
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Re: To Roberto

Post by Charles Bunch » 02 Nov 2002 16:38

Der Alte wrote:You've posted some interesting quotes, but by themselves they prove nothing, they're just assumptions and rough calculations. The panel of historians may well be biased themselves against Bacque simply because they would end up looking stupid - which they obviously don't want.
Your choice to believe someone whose work has been shown to be wrong over a panel of scholars on the subject is not a very convincing argument.
And yes, Overmans and other 'establishment' historians are paid and financed by the German government who wouold prefer to forget the past and follow other agendas.


So you claim. Where is your evidence?
You can say what you want but I smell a cover up on this issue. This is just my view - I don't want to make a big argument of this, since I have my opinion and you have yours. You choose to believe that endless millions were vapourised by the Nazis and I'll continue to believe that the French and Americans committed grave and hidden war crimes at the war's end.
Well, it's not a matter of opinion, but a matter of assessing the "evidence" used by Bacque.

Let's just take the statistical analysis he employed to arrive at his claimed 1 million dead. The conference of historians called by Stephen Ambrose looked at his evidence for this.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/ft ... mbrose.001

With regard to another of Mr. Bacque's conclusions, he arrives at
his sensational figure of one million dead through a system of
analysis that has left almost everyone who has tried to check his
statistics and methods befuddled. He did make one mistake because
of a typing error by a clerk. He saw a figure of 70,000 prisoners
in an Army medical report and then calculated the total death rate
for all prisoners in American hands on the basis of that number and
the 21,000 deaths also mentioned in the report. That is, he arrived
at his most basic conclusion, a death rate in all camps of 30
percent, by dividing the 21,000 deaths by the 70,000 prisoners.
However, the 70,000 figure should have been 10 times higher. All
other figures in the document make it clear that the correct number
of prisoners was 700,000. This would make the death rate not 30
percent but 3 percent.


------------

Your opinions do not rebut the facts of the matter.

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Scott Smith
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Re: War Crimes and Mercies...

Post by Scott Smith » 03 Nov 2002 02:42

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Caldric wrote:Which provisions of the Hauge or Geneva convention were violated POW? Doubt you will answer but honestly want to know.
Well, the POWs were arbitrarily reclassified by Eisenhower as "disarmed enemy forces," whatever the hell that means, instead of Prisoners-of-War. If you can arbitrarily do that, then the international conventions are not worth the paper they are written on (as I might easily argue).
As you have tried to argue without much success, Mr. Smith. You seem to have a rather short memory.

But I agree with you against Caldric's contentions:

If the custodian power were free to decide which of its captives it considers as prisoners of war and which it does not, then the international conventions and customary rules protecting prisoners of war could be thereby circumvented, and this would make them worthless.
Well, at least we have some agreement, Roberto. But "success" is not determined by whether you agree with me or not. I state my views--whether anyone agrees or disagrees with them is entirely their free concern as thinking human beings.
:)

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Post by Kaisertreue » 03 Nov 2002 02:45

Mr Bunch,

Have you actually read Bacque's book and examined his sources? If not, then please don't waste your time putting antagonistic quotations here. Bacque is not a complete idiot; he has used Soviet archives to research his findings and has spent several months interviewing many people. Now, as regards the alleged 70,000/700,000 mistake, that may or may not be true, but it proves nothing. His findings come from various sources.

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Scott Smith
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Re: Hi,

Post by Scott Smith » 03 Nov 2002 03:05

Homer martin wrote:Another very good post Roberto.

The numbers prove the case that the Western Allies didn't mistreat their pow's.
I think that is questionable but I do not endorse Bacque's numbers.
Food was very short after the war and the Allies did the best they could under very difficult conditions.
But if the Germans had made such a "choice" then it would be a warcrime, as even Roberto agrees (if I understand him correctly).
Trying to judge what happened in WWII by todays rules of war and laws is illogical.
I don't see how today's rules of war or the 1949 Geneva convention change this at all. The Allies are often shown to be hypocrites.

But I would agree that judging any historical matter by "today's standards" is a questionable practice.
This is another case of the dog barking up the wrong tree.
I would argue that sovereign nations can make or break their treaties, and treaties are what International Law is--although that is another subject.
:)

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Post by Charles Bunch » 03 Nov 2002 04:06

Der Alte wrote:Mr Bunch,

Have you actually read Bacque's book and examined his sources?


I've read his book. Historians have checked his sources and found his interpretations of them factually incorrect. Have you checked his sources.
If not, then please don't waste your time putting antagonistic quotations here.


Don't you worry about my time. People like you don't take much of it.
Bacque is not a complete idiot; he has used Soviet archives to research his findings and has spent several months interviewing many people.
And his pertinent conclusions are wrong, based on erroneous information, and lack of evidentiary support.
Now, as regards the alleged 70,000/700,000 mistake, that may or may not be true, but it proves nothing. His findings come from various sources
It destroys his primary point, irrevocably.

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Re: War Crimes and Mercies...

Post by Caldric » 03 Nov 2002 08:53

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Caldric wrote:Which provisions of the Hauge or Geneva convention were violated POW? Doubt you will answer but honestly want to know.
Well, the POWs were arbitrarily reclassified by Eisenhower as "disarmed enemy forces," whatever the hell that means, instead of Prisoners-of-War. If you can arbitrarily do that, then the international conventions are not worth the paper they are written on (as I might easily argue).
As you have tried to argue without much success, Mr. Smith. You seem to have a rather short memory.

But I agree with you against Caldric's contentions:

If the custodian power were free to decide which of its captives it considers as prisoners of war and which it does not, then the international conventions and customary rules protecting prisoners of war could be thereby circumvented, and this would make them worthless.
What are my contentions?

I had no argument that Ike was in the right to reclassify anyone.

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Post by Caldric » 03 Nov 2002 08:58

Quote:
Where they worked to death?

With this you referring to the Haague Land War Convention and it's an evidence for me that you're not familiar with the content.

Quote:
? I find it disgusting if it is true that American POW's camps allowed children to starve to death

Hey denier, no if here pls.
Yes IF that is the case as you can see. No one has shown any evidence that they allowed children to starve just to so they would die. And since you continue to avoid showing any with your own child like tantrum then there is no need to continue to talk to a brick.

If it is so evident why not show your knowledge and answer the question? Should I post here the points of the Convention for you and explain them? Or do you just interpret them to fit your argument.

However, as always it is the Allies that are to blame, no blame should be be put upon the Nazi government for using their own children for cannon fodder.

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Post by Caldric » 03 Nov 2002 09:29

As far as food shortages in Europe are concerned it is very evident by the urgent messages and request by the American command that there was going to be a major shortage.
Eisenhower wrote the Chief of Staff, Gen. George C. Marshall, in February 1945: "I am very much concerned about the food situation. . . . We now have no reserves on the Continent of supplies for the civil population."
is Eisenhower writing to the Combined Chiefs of Staff on April 25, 1945: "Unless immediate steps are taken to develop to the fullest extent possible the food resources in order to provide the minimum wants of the German population, widespread chaos, starvation and disease are inevitable during the coming winter."
Military Governor for Germany in July 1945: "The food situation throughout Western Germany is perhaps the most serious problem of the occupation. The average food consumption in the Western Zones is now about one- third below the generally accepted subsistence level." The September report declares, "Food from indigenous sources was not available to meet the present authorized ration level for the normal consumer, of 1,550 calories per day."
Ambrose says the following in regards to reclassifing POW's:


What happened is simple enough: the Allies could not afford to feed the millions of German prisoners at the same level at which they were feeding their own troops, as required by the Geneva Convention. Even had the food been available, the Allies were not going to feed German prisoners at a higher level than they were able to feed German civilians, not to mention the civilians of the liberated countries of Western Europe, and not to mention as well the displaced persons. But the United States and other Allied nations had signed the Geneva Convention, which had the force of a treaty. They did not wish to violate it, so they used the new designation of "Disarmed Enemy Forces." The orders to the field commanders were straightforward: do not feed the D.E.F.'s at a higher scale than German civilians.
Ambrose also has the following to say about Barque:
Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major historical discovery. There was widespread mistreatment of German prisoners in the spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied water, forced to live in open camps without shelter, given inadequate food rations and inadequate medical care. Their mail was withheld. In some cases prisoners made a "soup" of water and grass in order to deal with their hunger. Men did die needlessly and inexcusably. This must be confronted, and it is to Mr. Bacque's credit that he forces us to do so.

Nevertheless, Mr. Bacque makes a point that is irrefutable: some American G.I.'s and their officers were capable of acting in almost as brutal a manner as the Nazis. We did not have a monopoly on virtue. He has challenged us to reopen the question, to do the research required, to get at the full truth. For that contribution, he deserves thanks. But as to how he presented his discovery, I turn again to Albert Cowdrey: "Surely the author has reason to be satisfied with his achievement. He has no reputation as a historian to lose, and 'Other Losses' can only enhance his standing as a writer of fiction."
The worse and most damning evidence against Ike is the fact that the British and Canadians were still capable of keeping their prisoners in fair conditions. However, they did not have nearly as many POW's as the Americans, or so it seems.

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Post by POW » 03 Nov 2002 10:10

However, they did not have nearly as many POW's as the Americans
British: 3,7 mio
US: 3,8 mio
Better you go and play with LEGO.

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Post by Caldric » 03 Nov 2002 11:14

POW wrote:
However, they did not have nearly as many POW's as the Americans
British: 3,7 mio
US: 3,8 mio
Better you go and play with LEGO.
They are fun actually. I enjoy them sometimes.

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Post by POW » 03 Nov 2002 14:00

...as always it is the Allies that are to blame...
I never lived in North America but I visited the USA and Canada as well. Different than in most foreign countries it was easy to get contact to the locals cause I'm able to speak their language. To my experience in the USA and Canada are living wonderful people. I really enjoyed my stay in these countries. Of course basically, all people of all nations are good people. They do not want to do you any-harm, they might even help you in your personal shortcomings, they do not want wars, they love their dear-ones and families, they like to be happy, they want to enjoy life.

Let me repeat, I feel "pro-American". But not all the way. Sometimes the US Gvt. caused irritations throughout the world which are hard to understand. But nevertheless, I do feel, that in general, the U.S. people have the best intentions to better this world! Nevertheless I criticize the US Gvt. sometimes.

With deep regret I have to consider that the people did not learn anything. If it was WW1 or WW2, the revolution in Russia, the civil war in Spain or in Indochina, Korea, Algeria, Vietnam and Yugoslavia - always inhumanity triumph over humanity. Humanity is still no word in the dictionary of the mightiest. Nowadays we call it ethnic cleansing and 50 years ago we called it "Endlösung". And so people die, in the past and in these days.

"They drove us to the sport field and we had to enter dog-kennels which were set up on a row. Then we had to leave on command the kennels and had to creep and bark while the guards were shooting very low with their machine guns. High Officers and one General stood at the fence and were laughing. The next day we had to fight with each other. If a comrade did not punch hard enough, the guards came and beat the hell out of him. Some of us, choose spontaneous, got a rope round his hands and the neck. When there was no blood circulation in arms and hands and they sunk down, they were strangled by themself."
This statement was made by a Bosnian POW in Serb captivity. But the same statement could be from a German POW in Allied captivity or an American POW in Japanese captivity. More than 50 years later. Incredible!

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Post by viriato » 03 Nov 2002 14:29

Caldric what is then your conclusion based on this two statements:
The worse and most damning evidence against Ike is the fact that the British and Canadians were still capable of keeping their prisoners in fair conditions. However, they did not have nearly as many POW's as the Americans, or so it seems.
but after all POW held were:
British: 3,7 mio
US: 3,8 mio

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Post by Scott Smith » 03 Nov 2002 14:31

Caldric wrote:Ambrose says the following in regards to reclassifing POW's:
What happened is simple enough: the Allies could not afford to feed the millions of German prisoners at the same level at which they were feeding their own troops, as required by the Geneva Convention. Even had the food been available, the Allies were not going to feed German prisoners at a higher level than they were able to feed German civilians, not to mention the civilians of the liberated countries of Western Europe, and not to mention as well the displaced persons. But the United States and other Allied nations had signed the Geneva Convention, which had the force of a treaty. They did not wish to violate it, so they used the new designation of "Disarmed Enemy Forces." The orders to the field commanders were straightforward: do not feed the D.E.F.'s at a higher scale than German civilians.
An incredibly lame excuse that would not have held water at Nuremberg had the tables been reversed.

And as Eisenhower's biographer, Ambrose's "apple-pie" apologia and even outright hypocrisy is hardly surprising.
:)

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