Eisenhowers guilt?

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Scott Smith
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#76

Post by Scott Smith » 04 Nov 2002, 23:32

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:International agreements/treaties are made among sovereigns; contracts, on the other hand, are agreements between individuals made in accordance with some higher legal code or sovereignty, usually with specified litigation procedures.
International law indeed functions somewhat differently from civilian law. It constituent elements are agreements among and customs abided by nations, which are the legislative acts of the higher sovereignty that is the community of nations and create legal principles that override the legislation of the individual nation.
Which is basically what I said here:
Scott wrote:Only if a sovereign power is defeated in war or by mutual-agreement can another sovereignty impose its law/customs.
International Law has legal primacy (over "legislative acts") only because a nation has made treaties/agreements giving it legal status. It does NOT "override" the law that creates it, which is the treaty agreement power or sovereignty of a nation. Any sovereignty which has the power to make a treaty can also break a treaty. A treaty might become the "supreme law of the land" but it is not a higher sovereignty than the law creating it.
:)

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Re: FEEDING the NATZSEES...

#77

Post by Scott Smith » 04 Nov 2002, 23:48

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:If Ike had asked he would have gotten.
German historian Rolf Steininger (translated by Roberto) wrote:The fact is that in 1945 there was a worldwide shortage of food and that the transportation system in Europe was largely destroyed. Already on 14 February Eisenhower had called the attention of the Allied governments to the fact that he feared a severe shortage of food throughout Europe at the war's end. He even feared that there would be famine - and he had no food reserves to feed the Germans, the "displaced persons" and the Allied civilian population. He "urgently" requested immediate food supplies from Great Britain - this at a time when in Great Britain food was still rationed.
Emphasis is mine.

How did the Allied governments react to Eisenhower's above mentioned statement, Mr. Smith?
I'm sure there was a worldwide food shortage, especially in Europe, but not in the United States. Amazing that the Allies suddenly had no transportation infrastructure. In peacetime. Makes one wonder how they fought the war. Guess they just couldn't get food to the camps--an excuse that didn't work for the Germans who were fighting a war.
:)


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Re: Feeding the Trolls

#78

Post by Charles Bunch » 04 Nov 2002, 23:55

I'm sure there was a worldwide food shortage, especially in Europe, but not in the United States. Amazing that the Allies suddenly had no transportation infrastructure. In peacetime. Makes one wonder how they fought the war? Guess they just couldn't get food to the camps--an excuse that didn't work for the Germans who were fighting a war.
The excuse didn't work for the Nazis because food was found in the vicinity, the local populations weren't short of food, and it was the policy of the camp commanders to let the inmates starve.

Other than that, your comments are as apt as ever, Smith.

Still asserting that food could have been got to Europe in the quantities needed, I see, but providing no support for the claim!

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#79

Post by viriato » 05 Nov 2002, 00:06

Scott Smith wrote:
I'm sure there was a worldwide food shortage, especially in Europe, but not in the United States. Amazing that the Allies suddenly had no transportation infrastructure. In peacetime.
The problem seems to be another one. Some of the allies - the British - semed to had the food on the spot, that is they had the capability of feeding the German prisioners. Not the US occupation troops. What is amazing to me is that for a large part the British both at home and their troops in Germany were themselves dependent on the USA. And till now nobody on this thread gave me any insight of why has this happened.

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Re: Feeding the Trolls

#80

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Nov 2002, 00:16

Charles Bunch wrote:
I'm sure there was a worldwide food shortage, especially in Europe, but not in the United States. Amazing that the Allies suddenly had no transportation infrastructure. In peacetime. Makes one wonder how they fought the war? Guess they just couldn't get food to the camps--an excuse that didn't work for the Germans who were fighting a war.
The excuse didn't work for the Nazis because food was found in the vicinity, the local populations weren't short of food, and it was the policy of the camp commanders to let the inmates starve.
If you are talking about the concentration camps in western Germany liberated by the Americans and British, this "starvation policy" must have been a new one because most of the disease and starvation of the entire war occured in the last 90 days when:

1) The camps suddenly became overcrowded.
2) The Allied bombing campaign had destroyed the transportation infrastructure supplying the camps.
3) The impending crisis in food, medicine, and shelter had not yet hit the German areas not overrun with refugees and enemy troops because German civil authority was still operating.
Other than that, your comments are as apt as ever, Smith.
Nice try, Chuckoo.
Still asserting that food could have been got to Europe in the quantities needed, I see, but providing no support for the claim!
Well, let's use Chuckoon logic: I will get an affidavit from my Grandmother who was alive in 1945 asking her what was available on the supermarket shelves for those who could pay in cash. Compared to the Depression it was the Horn of Plenty. Just a few bucks would buy groceries for a month. My Grandfather was rather partial to beefsteaks and they were quite poor.
:)

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Re: Feeding the Trolls

#81

Post by Charles Bunch » 05 Nov 2002, 00:25

Scott Smith wrote:
Charles Bunch wrote:
I'm sure there was a worldwide food shortage, especially in Europe, but not in the United States. Amazing that the Allies suddenly had no transportation infrastructure. In peacetime. Makes one wonder how they fought the war? Guess they just couldn't get food to the camps--an excuse that didn't work for the Germans who were fighting a war.
The excuse didn't work for the Nazis because food was found in the vicinity, the local populations weren't short of food, and it was the policy of the camp commanders to let the inmates starve.
If you are talking about the concentration camps in western Germany liberated by the Americans and British, this "starvation policy" must have been a new one because most of the disease and starvation of the entire war occured in the last 90 days when:

1) The camps suddenly became overcrowded.
The camps became overcrowded because the Nazis transported and forced march Jews from the camps in the East, hoping many would die, rather than leave them for the Soviets to care for them. So the overcrowding was just another aspect of Nazi policy toward Jews and was wholly their responsibility.
2) The Allied bombing campaign had destroyed the transportation infrastructure supplying the camps.
There was no problem with getting food to the few camps in question, any more than there was a problem with getting food to the German civilians in the area.

This is old denier canard.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... e-bombings

"The number that had died at Belsen since February and the first typhus
outbreak was hardly less than forty thousand. They had not been exterminated,
nor was their death due to Allied bombing which had paralysed the railwaysand
disrupted the German supply system. The evidence at the Lueneburg Trial
showed that the bakeries and flour stores of the Panzergrenadier School at
Bergen-Belsen could have kept the uninfected inmates of the camp alive for many
weeks, had authroity been given to sue them. Forty thousand people died in
Belsen as a result of twelve years of tolerated incompetence in the overblown
offices of Oswald Pohl and Richard Gluecks."

Reitlinger, _The SS: alibi of a nation
3) The impending crisis in food, medicine, and shelter had not yet hit the German areas not overrun with refugees and enemy troops because German civil authority was still operating.
That's correct. You have just negated your second point!!

Other than that, your comments are as apt as ever, Smith.
Nice try, Chuckoo.
Hehe!
Still asserting that food could have been got to Europe in the quantities needed, I see, but providing no support for the claim!
Well, let's use Chuckoon logic: I will get an affidavit from my Grandmother who was alive in 1945 asking her what was available on the supermarket shelves for those who could pay in cash. Compared to the Depression it was the Horn of Plenty. Just a few bucks would buy groceries for a month. My Grandfather was rather partial to beefsteaks and they were quite poor.
See why Smith resorts to ipse dixit. It's so much easier than actually knowing something about the subject under discussion!

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#82

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Nov 2002, 00:25

viriato wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:I'm sure there was a worldwide food shortage, especially in Europe, but not in the United States. Amazing that the Allies suddenly had no transportation infrastructure. In peacetime.
What is amazing to me is that for a large part the British both at home and their troops in Germany were themselves dependent on the USA.
That's because Great Britain had been on a war-economy since 1939 and was producing weapons not consumer goods or foodstuffs. So many weapons in fact that some were shipped to the Soviet Union. That is also why a successful U-Boat campaign would not have led to starvation because the Kriegsmarine could never have sealed off Albion completely without a powerful surface navy and naval air-fleet, and production would have shifted accordingly to food instead of weapons. The USA was the world's supermarket, hardly touched by the war.
:)

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Re: Feeding the Trolls

#83

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Nov 2002, 00:51

Charles Bunch wrote:The camps became overcrowded because the Nazis transported and forced march Jews from the camps in the East, hoping many would die, rather than leave them for the Soviets to care for them. So the overcrowding was just another aspect of Nazi policy toward Jews and was wholly their responsibility.
Yeah, an old story. The Nazis wet their pants at the sight of blood and could not afford a few rounds of small-arms ammunition. Next.
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:2) The Allied bombing campaign had destroyed the transportation infrastructure supplying the camps.
There was no problem with getting food to the few camps in question, any more than there was a problem with getting food to the German civilians in the area.
Civil authority was on the verge of breaking down and the Nazis lost control of the situation in the camps--otherwise there wouldn't have been overcrowding and a typhus epidemic in the last weeks of the war.
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:3) The impending crisis in food, medicine, and shelter had not yet hit the German areas not overrun with refugees and enemy troops because German civil authority was still operating.
That's correct. You have just negated your second point!!
No, I've validated my point made earlier on this thread that prisoners need more care than normal because they are inherently vulnerable to starvation and disease. The Nazis lost control of the situation in the camps first because of the overcrowding from evacuations in the east.
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:
Chuck wrote:Still asserting that food could have been got to Europe in the quantities needed, I see, but providing no support for the claim!
Well, let's use Chuckoon logic: I will get an affidavit from my Grandmother who was alive in 1945 asking her what was available on the supermarket shelves for those who could pay in cash. Compared to the Depression it was the Horn of Plenty. Just a few bucks would buy groceries for a month. My Grandfather was rather partial to beefsteaks and they were quite poor.
See why Smith resorts to ipse dixit. It's so much easier than actually knowing something about the subject under discussion!
Well, then why don't you post something objective about how many Americans were starving in the postwar USA. Perhaps Nizkor can help you.
:)
A Crew of Seven German Prisoners-of-War Operate a Potato Bulker on Frank Bell's Farm,
Just Across the State Line in Tulelake, California, October 1944.

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Re: Feeding the Trolls

#84

Post by Charles Bunch » 05 Nov 2002, 02:51

Charles Bunch wrote:
Scot Smith wrote:The camps became overcrowded because the Nazis transported and forced march Jews from the camps in the East, hoping many would die, rather than leave them for the Soviets to care for them. So the overcrowding was just another aspect of Nazi policy toward Jews and was wholly their responsibility.
Yeah, an old story. The Nazis wet their pants at the sight of blood and could not afford a few rounds of small-arms ammunition. Next.
The Nazis wet their pants and ran, taking their Jews with them. If you aren't concerned with looking like a complete fool denying the plain facts of how the camps in Germany got crowded, be my guest!
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:2) The Allied bombing campaign had destroyed the transportation infrastructure supplying the camps.
There was no problem with getting food to the few camps in question, any more than there was a problem with getting food to the German civilians in the area.
Civil authority was on the verge of breaking down and the Nazis lost control of the situation in the camps--otherwise there wouldn't have been overcrowding and a typhus epidemic in the last weeks of the war.
There was overcrowding in the camps because the Nazis filled the camps with Jews from Poland rather than allow them to rescued by the Soviets. Typhus had nothing to do with whether there was adequate food. There was plenty of food in the vicinity as post war courts established. The people running the camps simply didn't feed the inmates.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... e-bombings

"The number that had died at Belsen since February and the first typhus
outbreak was hardly less than forty thousand. They had not been exterminated,
nor was their death due to Allied bombing which had paralysed the railwaysand
disrupted the German supply system. The evidence at the Lueneburg Trial
showed that the bakeries and flour stores of the Panzergrenadier School at
Bergen-Belsen could have kept the uninfected inmates of the camp alive for many
weeks, had authroity been given to sue them. Forty thousand people died in
Belsen as a result of twelve years of tolerated incompetence in the overblown
offices of Oswald Pohl and Richard Gluecks."

Reitlinger, _The SS: alibi of a nation

Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:3) The impending crisis in food, medicine, and shelter had not yet hit the German areas not overrun with refugees and enemy troops because German civil authority was still operating.
That's correct. You have just negated your second point!!
No, I've validated my point made earlier on this thread that prisoners need more care than normal because they are inherently vulnerable to starvation and disease.
Nothing in that lone sentence addresses this question at all. What it does do is directly contradict your claim about a food shortage.
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:
Chuck wrote:Still asserting that food could have been got to Europe in the quantities needed, I see, but providing no support for the claim!
Well, let's use Chuckoon logic: I will get an affidavit from my Grandmother who was alive in 1945 asking her what was available on the supermarket shelves for those who could pay in cash. Compared to the Depression it was the Horn of Plenty. Just a few bucks would buy groceries for a month. My Grandfather was rather partial to beefsteaks and they were quite poor.
See why Smith resorts to ipse dixit. It's so much easier than actually knowing something about the subject under discussion!
Well, then why don't you post something objective about how many Americans were starving in the postwar USA. Perhaps Nizkor can help you.
Smith admits he has no support for his notion that the US could have alleviated the food shortage in Europe!!

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Re: Feeding the Trolls

#85

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Nov 2002, 03:27

Charles Bunch wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Charles Bunch wrote:The camps became overcrowded because the Nazis transported and forced march Jews from the camps in the East, hoping many would die, rather than leave them for the Soviets to care for them. So the overcrowding was just another aspect of Nazi policy toward Jews and was wholly their responsibility.
Yeah, an old story. The Nazis wet their pants at the sight of blood and could not afford a few rounds of small-arms ammunition. Next.
The Nazis wet their pants and ran, taking their Jews with them. If you aren't concerned with looking like a complete fool denying the plain facts of how the camps in Germany got crowded, be my guest!
Of course the Nazis took their Jews with them. Eli Wiesel and his father even volunteered to go west with their executioners instead of staying behind to be liberated by the Russians at Auschwitz.
:wink:

My point is that the Nazis could have killed them if they had wanted to. Easy. But you said their policy in the last three months before the liberation of Belsen, etc. was to starve them to death. I guess the Nazis just wet their pants at the sight of blood and couldn't afford a little small-arms ammunition to do the job. And they apparently couldn't get the Dachau gaschamber to work either because it was never used--which must be why Dr. Blaha testified that they threw babies alive into the crematoria ovens, huh Chuck...
:roll:
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:2) The Allied bombing campaign had destroyed the transportation infrastructure supplying the camps.
There was no problem with getting food to the few camps in question, any more than there was a problem with getting food to the German civilians in the area.
Civil authority was on the verge of breaking down and the Nazis lost control of the situation in the camps--otherwise there wouldn't have been overcrowding and a typhus epidemic in the last weeks of the war.
There was overcrowding in the camps because the Nazis filled the camps with Jews from Poland rather than allow them to rescued by the Soviets. Typhus had nothing to do with whether there was adequate food. There was plenty of food in the vicinity as post war courts established. The people running the camps simply didn't feed the inmates.
Malnutrition is certainly a contributing factor to epidemic disease and so is overcrowding. Typhus is a wasting disease and even when the Allies liberated the camps and presumably DID feed the inmates they still continued to die like flies. One advantage that the Allied liberators had over the Germans was DDT for louse-control, which was much easier to use than Zyklon-B. Yes, overcrowding and "losing control of the situation" were very much caused by the Allied bombing and the destruction of transportation infrastructure. It is a wonder that the prisoners evacuated from the east arrived at all and it is no wonder that they were not healthy when they got there.
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:3) The impending crisis in food, medicine, and shelter had not yet hit the German areas not overrun with refugees and enemy troops because German civil authority was still operating.
That's correct. You have just negated your second point!!
No, I've validated my point made earlier on this thread that prisoners need more care than normal because they are inherently vulnerable to starvation and disease.
Nothing in that lone sentence addresses this question at all. What it does do is directly contradict your claim about a food shortage.
I didn't say there wasn't a shortage of food at the MOUTHS of the Bergen-Belsen prisoners themselves. However, Josef Kramer may not have had authority to commandeer stores from the Panzergrenadier school at Bergen-Belsen. He was overwhelmed with the number of inductees and could not control the raging epidemic. Also, I never said that Kramer, Glücks, and Pohl weren't incompetent.
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:
Chuck wrote:Still asserting that food could have been got to Europe in the quantities needed, I see, but providing no support for the claim!
Well, let's use Chuckoon logic: I will get an affidavit from my Grandmother who was alive in 1945 asking her what was available on the supermarket shelves for those who could pay in cash. Compared to the Depression it was the Horn of Plenty. Just a few bucks would buy groceries for a month. My Grandfather was rather partial to beefsteaks and they were quite poor.
See why Smith resorts to ipse dixit. It's so much easier than actually knowing something about the subject under discussion!
Well, then why don't you post something objective about how many Americans were starving in the postwar USA. Perhaps Nizkor can help you.
Smith admits he has no support for his notion that the US could have alleviated the food shortage in Europe!!
You produced Reitlinger to say that there were stores in the Panzergrenadier school at Bergen-Belsen. I produced an eyewitness of full shelves in the American supermarkets in 1945. I'd say the burden-of-proof is on you to show starvation in the USA rendering it impossible to feed the German POWs.
:)

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Re: Feeding the Trolls

#86

Post by Charles Bunch » 05 Nov 2002, 06:09

Scott Smith wrote:
Charles Bunch wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Charles Bunch wrote:The camps became overcrowded because the Nazis transported and forced march Jews from the camps in the East, hoping many would die, rather than leave them for the Soviets to care for them. So the overcrowding was just another aspect of Nazi policy toward Jews and was wholly their responsibility.
Yeah, an old story. The Nazis wet their pants at the sight of blood and could not afford a few rounds of small-arms ammunition. Next.
The Nazis wet their pants and ran, taking their Jews with them. If you aren't concerned with looking like a complete fool denying the plain facts of how the camps in Germany got crowded, be my guest!
Of course the Nazis took their Jews with them. Eli Wiesel and his father even volunteered to go west with their executioners instead of staying behind to be liberated by the Russians at Auschwitz.


Wiesel did not volunteer. He left because, as he says in his writing, he felt he would be killed if he stayed.

But at least you have moved away from the brink on one stupidity. The overcrowding of the camps in Germany was the resposibility of the Nazis and their Jewish policy.
My point is that the Nazis could have killed them if they had wanted to.
That was not your point, and it has nothing to do with this discussion.
But it is typical of your desperate attempts to change topics when struggling.
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:
Chuck wrote: There was no problem with getting food to the few camps in question, any more than there was a problem with getting food to the German civilians in the area.
Civil authority was on the verge of breaking down and the Nazis lost control of the situation in the camps--otherwise there wouldn't have been overcrowding and a typhus epidemic in the last weeks of the war.
There was overcrowding in the camps because the Nazis filled the camps with Jews from Poland rather than allow them to rescued by the Soviets. Typhus had nothing to do with whether there was adequate food. There was plenty of food in the vicinity as post war courts established. The people running the camps simply didn't feed the inmates.
Malnutrition is certainly a contributing factor to epidemic disease and so is overcrowding.


Obviously. But you offered it as evidence of the _cause_ of the malnutrition. Your use of the old denier canard about the rail lines has been debunked.
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:
Chuck wrote: That's correct. You have just negated your second point!!
No, I've validated my point made earlier on this thread that prisoners need more care than normal because they are inherently vulnerable to starvation and disease.
Nothing in that lone sentence addresses this question at all. What it does do is directly contradict your claim about a food shortage.
I didn't say there wasn't a shortage of food at the MOUTHS of the Bergen-Belsen prisoners themselves.
Another nonsensical sentence. What you said was there was a shortage of food. Then you said the crisis in food was "impending". You contradicted yourself.
However, Josef Kramer may not have had authority to commandeer stores from the Panzergrenadier school at Bergen-Belsen.
Irrelevant. He didn't ask, as he admitted.
He was overwhelmed with the number of inductees and could not control the raging epidemic. Also, I never said that Kramer, Glücks, and Pohl weren't incompetent.
He was not overwhelmed. He didn't care.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... -testimony

Testimony of Herta Ehlert, a member of the SS unit at Belsen (p. 709):
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The conditions in Belsen were a shame and a disgrace. I consider
that the people chiefly responsible were Kramer the Kommandant,
Dr. Horstmann, Untersturmfuehrer Klipp, who was for some time
Kramer's second in command, and Haupsturfuehrer Vogler, who
worked in Kramer's office and was responsible for food supply.
I say that Kramer was responsible for the conditions, among
other reasons, because on one occasion when I complained of the
increasing death rate to Kramer he replied, "let them die, why
should you care?".

-----------

Just more of the "skeptic" who just happens to buy into and broadcast every denial offered by the Holocaust Denial industry.
Chuck wrote:
Scott wrote:
Chuck wrote: See why Smith resorts to ipse dixit. It's so much easier than actually knowing something about the subject under discussion!
Well, then why don't you post something objective about how many Americans were starving in the postwar USA. Perhaps Nizkor can help you.
Smith admits he has no support for his notion that the US could have alleviated the food shortage in Europe!!
You produced Reitlinger to say that there were stores in the Panzergrenadier school at Bergen-Belsen. I produced an eyewitness of full shelves in the American supermarkets in 1945.


No you didn't. You posted hearsay evidence of a dubious nature.

But it's clear you have nothing to support your mindless contention that the food shortage could have been alleviated.

It gets more difficult when you have to play by the normal rules of historiogaphy, don't it!!

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#87

Post by walterkaschner » 05 Nov 2002, 09:25

Scott Smith wrote:
I will get an affidavit from my Grandmother who was alive in 1945 asking her what was available on the supermarket shelves for those who could pay in cash. Compared to the Depression it was the Horn of Plenty. Just a few bucks would buy groceries for a month. My Grandfather was rather partial to beefsteaks and they were quite poor.
I grew up in a very small hard-scrabble farm town in the Midwest during the Depression and WWII. I don't know where Scott's Grandmother lived, but I can well recall that in my hometown during the Depression there was plenty of food in the grocery stores (there were no supermarkets then), the problem was finding enough money to buy it. Plenty of people were going hungry, and I can vividly recall my parents and other members of our church providing free meals for the needy in the church basement.

During and immediately after WWII, however, the situation was quite different. The economy picked up and most people had cash to spend; the problem then was there was much less to spend it on (there were still no supermarkets, at least in my hometown). Most people were not going hungry anymore, but rationing was certainly in effect and items such as gasoline, tires, sugar, butter, canned goods and certain kinds of meat were in short supply. I can well recall the ration cards and small circular ration tokens that my mother had to carefully deal with and dispense, and although our own situation could in absolutely no way compare with the hardships which the UK and European countries had to suffer through, we did NOT have a Cornucopia of Plenty. Even fresh produce was often in short supply, and we were all encouraged to plant "Victory Gardens" and put up in cans or otherwise preserve the excess produce for the Winter months. My father and I converted our flower garden to a vegetable garden which I personally felt was a desecration and hated every minute of the hours I was forced to spend planting, weeding, harvesting, canning and otherwise preserving the produce.

I am not trying to compare our minor annoyances to the depth of deprivation, hunger and suffering which Germans and other Europeans experienced in 1945-46. My dear dead wife lived through that winter in Germany and I know no such comparison is possible. My point is simply that there were indeed certain food shortages in the US at the time, and no huge supplies of food were sitting on the docks waiting to be transported to Germany for either the POWs or the civilian populace.

There is no doubt in my mind that in a perfect world the US government could, and should, have handled the obvious problem of providing for the nourishment of the German POWs, as well as of the German civilian population, in a better fashion than it did. The view is always clearer through the rear view mirror, and looking back it is easy to proclaim that it should have been obvious that the collapse of the Third Reich would bring with it problems of nourishment which the US either failed to anticipate or simply ignored. But I am nonetheless convinced that this failure was not motivated by malevolence, but rather by lack of perfect foresight, negligence, carelessless or simple stupidity. Although terrible, inexcusable things were done or not done in connection with the handling of the German POWs in certain of the Rheineswieger camps, and possibly elsewhere, I know of nothing to indicate that this was a matter of official US policy. Every nation has its share of individual brutes and bullies; the US is quite obviously no exception. But basically, I believe the overall attitude in the US after WWII was over was of the same general benevolence that motivated the US relief agencies under Herbert Hoover during and after WWI.

As witness to this belief I can vividly recall reports in the written and newsreel media in late 1945 concerning the alarming state of the food supplies in Germany in view of the approaching winter, and the response those reports engendered, at least in my little town, and I now know thoughout the US. Some 20 charitable organizations immediately banded together to form C.A.R.E., for the purpose of providing packages of food for the desparate Europeans, including the Germans. In my little town the effort was primarily carried out by the various churches, and in the fall and winter of 1945 I and my parents spent countless hours soliciting funds and assembling packages of food in the basement of our church to be sent overseas to ease the distress of those in need, primarily Germans. Efforts such as this can not be put together overnight, and it was unfortunately not until the early Spring of 1946 that C.A.R.E. packages began to arrive in Europe, but the initial trickle eventually turned into a tidal wave and millions of C.A.R.E. packages eventually arrived in Europe. Many of my German friends have expressed their profound thanks for the packages they thus received.

To assume that the US, at the end of the war, could somehow wave a magic wand and thereby supply a virtually destroyed Europe with all of the foodstuffs it so desperately needed to comfortably get through one of the worst winters in history strikes me as the highest degree of fantasy. IMHO ideally the US could and should have forseen the problem well in advance and made adequate and effective plans to deal with it, which it obviously did not do. But to equate this to the German government's carefully considered and consciously designed program to starve the Russian POWs and civilian population is, to my mind, an absurdity scarcely worthy of further comment.

Regards, Kaschner

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#88

Post by POW » 05 Nov 2002, 10:04

viriato wrote:The problem seems to be another one. Some of the allies - the British - semed to had the food on the spot, that is they had the capability of feeding the German prisioners. Not the US occupation troops. What is amazing to me is that for a large part the British both at home and their troops in Germany were themselves dependent on the USA. And till now nobody on this thread gave me any insight of why has this happened.
And nobody in this thread will give an answer in the future cause it seems more interesting to discuss the holocaust on the Jews when the question is: "Eisenhower....guilty?" *sick*

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#89

Post by POW » 05 Nov 2002, 10:19

Charles Bunch wrote:I have no idea what you're talking about
POW wrote:Instead of having millions of prisoners behind barbed wire, which cannot be feeded, would it be smart to send them to the coal mines, farms etc. to produce food and to make the economy running?
Did I miss an answer....?
Charles Bunch wrote:Available food was distributed fairly to those under the Allies care.
POW wrote:Like I said: In a camp you are completely and utterly at someone's mercy. It is well known that POWs, who were allowed to work at farms, were far better off than their comrades.
Charles Bunch wrote:German POWs were not the only people totally dependent on the Allies. Decisions were properly made for the well being of all, not just the POWs.
What decisions you talking about?
Charles Bunch wrote:The British were part of the decision making process which is the topic of this thread.
POW wrote:Also the British reclassified the POWs, thats true. But the extents of mistreatment in British camps were not as high than in US camps.
Charles Bunch wrote:I've yet to see the evidence for mistreatment on the scale you seem to allege.
Sorry, I'm in hurry. At the moment I have no time to list all historians etc. which confirm the mistreatment. But if you demand I'll give a detailed answer as soon as time allows.
Charles Bunch wrote:But the matter of food distribution is quite clear.
Enlight us.

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Roberto
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#90

Post by Roberto » 05 Nov 2002, 13:22

Roberto wrote:International law indeed functions somewhat differently from civilian law. It constituent elements are agreements among and customs abided by nations, which are the legislative acts of the higher sovereignty that is the community of nations and create legal principles that override the legislation of the individual nation.
Smith wrote:Which is basically what I said here:
Scott wrote:Only if a sovereign power is defeated in war or by mutual-agreement can another sovereignty impose its law/customs.
No, that was but a reference to enforceability, which also confused national with international law.
Smith wrote:International Law has legal primacy (over "legislative acts") only because a nation has made treaties/agreements giving it legal status.
No, because it expresses the common will of a community of nations, which has prevalence over the will of the individual nation expressed in its national legislation.
Roberto wrote:It does NOT "override" the law that creates it, which is the treaty agreement power or sovereignty of a nation.
Yes it does. By entering into a treaty or agreement or abiding to a custom over a longer period of time, a nation partially waives its sovereignty and submits its legislating power to the will of the community of nations.

Once again:
Alfred Streim wrote:[...]The objection that the unlawful treatment of Red Army soldiers in German captivity was justified by Führerbefehl (and was therefore legal) is just as irrelevant. We can find the same line of argumentation in the defense pleas during the Einsatzgruppe trials, as well as in other cases where the killing of Soviet civilians and POWs on political, race, or religious grounds was justified by Führerbefehl as a law based on unwritten Nazi constitutional law. The fact that Führerbefehl was law is not debated, since Hitler had legislative power due to so-called revolutionary law, which had replaced the Reich constitution following the Nazi takeover, and which had been universally recognized in a fairly short time. Hitler’s will was law, or was at least to be carried out as if it were law. Even laws passed by constitutional bodies were seen as expressions of the Führer’s will.
However, Hitler’s legislative power had its limits (as all such power does) arising in particular (according to general legal opinion) from the fundamental principles of human behavior that have crystallized in all civilized nations on the basis of ethical agreement. This means that the Führerbefehl depriving Soviet POWs of law of war protection was illegal. Even if we did not share this opinion, Hitler’s will, which was legally valid, that Red Army soldiers in German captivity should be excluded from the law of war would be irrelevant, since the prevailing opinion is that international law has precedence over national law if the latter conflicts with the former. It hardly needs saying that this was indeed the case.[...]
Source of quote:

Alfred Streim, International Law and Soviet Prisoners of War

Emphases are mine.

Streim is a jurist who, as Senior State Attorney, was the head of the Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen zur Aufklärung nationalsozialistischer Verbrechen (Central Office for the Investigation of Nazi Crimes) in Ludwigsburg, Germany
Smith wrote:Any sovereignty which has the power to make a treaty can also break a treaty.
Certainly so. Provided, of course, that it is willing to bear the consequences of such breach if things go wrong.
Smith wrote:A treaty might become the "supreme law of the land" but it is not a higher sovereignty than the law creating it.
I'm aware that who believes in unlimited state power will necessarily hate the idea of a higher sovereignty, but that doesn't change the prevailing legal opinion that the community of nations is a higher sovereignty than the individual nation and that its will, also called international law, overrules the will of the individual nation expressed in its national law.

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