Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

[David Thompson]

An opinion post from Pacifritz, not dealing with sourced estimates of the death toll but which called for additional opinions, was removed by this moderator - DT.

[David Thompson]

A post from bob7708, which did not refer to any sourced estimates of victims of the holocaust, but asked a question about black concentration camp inmates, now has a thread of its own at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=202582.

[Tankbuster72]

To be honest the figure will never truly be known. One of the main factors why we will never know is recolds were destroyed when Allied troops started to win the war and camps were liberated. Bergen Belsen was meant to hold so many but was over crowded and people were still dying after liberation. And people died every day in the ghetto's and body's just chucked out into the streets. What about people who were shot and buried in mass graves no recolds were held. The only people who know the true figure are the people who committed these awful crimes.

[UMachine]

It would appear that the fate of many North African Jews will never be able to be ascertained. The numbers are relatively small in Tunisia,possibly 2000.In his book Among The Righteous Robert Satloff examined property records in Sfax and Sousse but was unable to uncover anything extraordinary. Rumblings of a very large cremation there.

[Skyderick]

Sunbury,
Some "Jewish Christians" may have been arrested and subjected to the anti-Jewish measures, thereby adding to that maximum, but the only persons in that category who could have been identified and seized by the Hungarian authorities were those who were officially recorded as belonging to that category. And that number is known from the 1941 census; the number of Christians recorded as subject to anti-Jewish laws was 34, 435.

“According to the 1941 census, 61,548 Jews of the Christian religion lived within the borders of Hungary.”
-The Holocaust in Hungary: Evolution of a Genocide

[michael mills]

I repeat:

The number recorded in the 1941 census as subject to the anti-Jewish laws was 34,435.

Source: Randolph Braham, "Hungarian-Jewish Studies", 1966.

According to that same source, the total number of "Jewish Christians" recorded in the 1941 census was 58,320, of whom 23,885 were not subject to the anti-Jewish laws.

So there is some disagreement as to the number of "Jewish Christians" living in Hungary in 1944. But as I stated, only Christians subject to the anti-Jewish laws were equated to Jews by the Hungarian Government and given the same treatment.

Other statistics of "Christian Jews" given in the above source:

Living in Budapest:.......................................36,362
Living elsewhere in Trianon Hungary:.................15,920
Living in acquired areas:..................................6,038

As is well known, the Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz in the early summer of 1944 were drawn overwhelmingly from the acquired areas, with less than half of the Jews of Trianon Hungary being included in the deportation, and the Jews of Budapest not being included in it at all.

Thus, if any "Christian Jews" were included in the deportation to Auschwitz, their numbers must have been minimal. Accordingly, the attempt to inflate the number of Hungarian Jewish victims by arbitrarily adding 100,000 "Jewish Christians" is shown to be a deception.

[stryder]

Two first hand accounts put the total number murdered at Treblinka at over 1 million. The Treblinka station master Zebecki states 1.2 million. A jewish survivor (the name escapes me at the moment) testified that he witnessed a party celebrating the 1 millionth victim, which occurred well before the end of the camp. 713,000 of those deaths occurred in the first 5 months.

In Odilo Globocnik's own words, he was responsible for two million deaths in Poland.

[KZ-Dachau]

Two first hand accounts put the total number murdered at Treblinka at over 1 million. The Treblinka station master Zebecki states 1.2 million. A jewish survivor (the name escapes me at the moment) testified that he witnessed a party celebrating the 1 millionth victim, which occurred well before the end of the camp. 713,000 of those deaths occurred in the first 5 months.

In Odilo Globocnik's own words, he was responsible for two million deaths in Poland.

According to documents 780,000 people were killed in Treblinka.




This can be found on pages 494 and 495 of Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder.

This number is produced by the Höfle telegram and German documents for 1943.

713,555 + 67,308 = 780,863

[Sergey Romanov]

Two first hand accounts put the total number murdered at Treblinka at over 1 million. The Treblinka station master Zebecki states 1.2 million. A jewish survivor (the name escapes me at the moment) testified that he witnessed a party celebrating the 1 millionth victim, which occurred well before the end of the camp. 713,000 of those deaths occurred in the first 5 months.

In Odilo Globocnik's own words, he was responsible for two million deaths in Poland.

There is no such thing as a "first hand account" of a death toll of such a huge action unless it was the person in charge of the counting.

Credible history simply does not work with the kinds of accounts like the ones you mention. Witness estimates have been shown to be exaggerated time and again. Estimates should be made, where possible, on the basis of documents and testimonies don't beat documents (with an exception of certain special cases).

There were indeed accounts of such a party (or parties) taking place, with different numbers cited, but it could have been parties for the whole of Aktion Reinhardt.

While witness Zabecki did claim 1,2 mln. for Treblinka later (e.g. in a conversation with Sereny, where he added: "and there is no doubt about it whatever"), in his first interrogation in 1944, upon the liberation of the territory by the Soviets, he claimed it was 3 million - and he emphasized that he was certain of that. This should illustrate how much such estimates are worth.

And the alleged words of Globus are of course hearsay.

[MattNutt]

...I hope to present 'clean' versions of the workings in due course, and to cross-reference them with the camps etc.

So you plan on telling us how many Jews died in each camp?

Thank you.

Please start with Auschwitz and Majdanek.

The original plaque at Auschwitz read:

FOUR MILLION

PEOPLE SUFFERED

AND DIED HERE

AT THE HANDS

OF THE NAZI

MURDERERS

BETWEEN THE YEARS

1940 AND 1945

And the original plaque at Majdanek read:

MAJDANEK 1941 - 1944


5 OVENS

6 GAS CHAMBERS

1,300m³ COMPOST

820,000 PAIRS OF SHOES


2,000,000 MURDERED PEOPLE

FROM AROUND THE WORLD

A combined death toll of 6 million people (mostly Jews).

Just a wee bit of an exaggeration I would say.

It would be nice to know what the true death toll figures are for these two camps.

[MattNutt]

We can add this about Majdanek:

In 1945 the original plaque at the Majdanek museum alleged:


2,000,000 MURDERED PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE WORLD


But by 1975 the death toll had been revised downward to 1.38 million.

(Source: Lucy Dawidowicz, The War against the Jews - 1933-1945, Pelican Books, 1975, p. 191.)


Wow, a reduction of 620,000 from one camp alone.

That's a pretty significant revision.

[MattNutt]

It looks like Lucy Dawidowic denies a lot more victims of the Holocaust than just the 620,000 at Majdanek.

I just found this:

Auschwitz deaths:

2,000,000 Cited by no less than three famous Holocaust deniers, including Leon Poliakov (1951) writing in “Harvest of Hate”; Georges Wellers, writing in 1973 in “The Yellow Star at the Time of Vichy”; and Lucy Dawidowicz, writing in 1975 in “The War Against the Jews.”

So in just one book, Dawidowicz denies 2,620,000 Holocaust deaths in just two camps alone.

If the above cited deniers are correct, then the combined death toll for Auschwitz and Majdanek went from 6 million in 1945 down to 3.38 million in 1975.

And from what I've seen, there is a lot more deaths being denied at these two camps. Revisionist Raul Hilberg for example, denies 2.75 million Holocaust deaths at just one camp (Auschwitz):

1,250,000 In 1985, historian Raul Hilberg arrived at this figure in his book, “The Destruction of the European Jews.” According to Hilberg, of those dead, some 1,000,000 were Jews.

TBC

[David Thompson]

MattNutt -- You're trying to say something. What is it?

[MattNutt]

MattNutt -- You're trying to say something. What is it?

What I'm trying to do David, is find out the "Number of Victims of the Holocaust."

More specifically, I'm trying to find out how many people in total, and how many Jews, died at Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II.

To begin with, what I see is numerous people on numerous occasions denying that the original Auschwitz plaque is correct:

FOUR MILLION

PEOPLE SUFFERED

AND DIED HERE

AT THE HANDS

OF THE NAZI

MURDERERS

BETWEEN THE YEARS

1940 AND 1945

How can anyone (especially Jews) deny that the Auschwitz Holocaust happened?

[David Thompson]

MattNutt -- You wrote, in answer to my question:

What I'm trying to do David, is find out the "Number of Victims of the Holocaust."

Well, start by getting familiar with the forum rules. They're posted for all to see at app.php/rules

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