Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#91

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Sep 2021, 13:51

Hi steve248,

Ouch!

Sid

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mikegriffith1
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#92

Post by mikegriffith1 » 29 Sep 2021, 13:42

Sid Guttridge wrote:
25 Sep 2021, 17:04
Hi mikegriffith1,

You post, "Actually, a judge was employed because Irving made the horrendous mistake of agreeing with the defense's suggestion that the trial be a judge trial instead of a jury trial." Presumably Irving did so for the reasons I stated - "A judge was employed precisely because his profession is trained to take a detached, balanced and forensic view of the evidence."

You say, ".....if you read the trial transcripts and then compare them with the judge's decision, I think you will see that the judge was neither balanced nor detached but rather ignored most of the evidence presented during the trial." I would suggest that the judge would have a better idea of what was presented at the trial than either you or me and therefore be better qualified to view the evidence accurately.

You say, "It's only "devastating" if you rely on the media's grossly distorted portrayal of the trial and/or if you only read the judge's decision and ignore the evidence presented during the trial." It is devastating because of the judge's findings, some of which I relayed here a few posts ago. As the judge presided over the case, I think it reasonable to assume that he was probably more informed about the evidence presented at the trial than anyone else. The media simply followed on from there.

I once (about 25 years ago) wrote to David Irving having noted that Himmler appeared to have sponsored almost simultaneous coup attempts by local Fascists in Romania (by the Iron Guard) and Slovakia (by the Hlinka Guard) in January 1941 and asked if he was aware of this and whether this was part of a co-ordinated attempt by Himmler to ideologically cleanse Germany's allies before the attack on the USSR. He did me the courtesy of sending me a half page reply in which he said that he had not previously noted the coincidence and was unable at that stage to answer my question. (I will be interested to see if he addresses it in the second volume of his Himmler book.) I therefore have no personal animus against him.

But the fact remains that he brought the court case, he agreed to a trial before a judge and he lost so badly as to seriously damage his reputation as a historian. I still have his books on my shelves and still consult them, but I now have to view them through a different lens to take into account the judge's findings.

Cheers, Sid.
I think we're going around in circles. I will simply repeat my argument that I think that anyone who objectively reads the trial transcripts will see that the judge ignored much of the evidence presented during the trial, that the judge made claims in his decision that Irving had soundly refuted, and that even the judge noted that several of Lipstadt's claims about Irving were false and that a number of the alleged examples of intentional falsehoods in Irving's writings were either not clearly intentional or were not actually false.

If the news media had covered the trial fairly and accurately, the judge's decision would not have been "devastating" to Irving's reputation.

I find it curious that you are placing the judge on such a high pedestal, as if judges never make bad decisions, never show bias, never get things wrong, etc. I'm guessing that if the judge had ruled in Irving's favor, you would not be citing him as an infallible authority.

For those who might be interested, here is David Irving's "closing speech" at the Lipstadt trial:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Closing_ ... tadt_trial

Finally, in his decision, Judge Gray himself said the following about Irving as a military historian, but you would never know this to read any of the media accounts of the trial or of the judge's decision:
“My assessment is that as a military historian, Irving has much to commend him. For his works of military history Irving has undertaken thorough and painstaking research into the archives. He has discovered and disclosed to historians and others many documents which, but for his efforts, might have remained unnoticed for years. It was plain from the way in which he conducted his case and dealt with a sustained and penetrating cross-examination that his knowledge of World War 2 is unparalleled. His mastery of the detail of the historical documents is remarkable. He is beyond question able and intelligent. He was invariably quick to spot the significance of documents which he had not previously seen. Moreover he writes his military history in a clear and vivid style. I accept the favourable assessment by Professor Watt and Sir John Keegan of the calibre of Irving’s military history and reject as too sweeping the negative assessment of [defense witness Richard] Evans.”


Sid Guttridge
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#93

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Oct 2021, 07:38

Hi mikegriffith1,

And "I find it curious that you are not placing the judge on.... a..... pedestal". Society selects and trains judges to be legally informed and dispassionate. That was presumably why Irving chose one over a jury trial. Certainly judges can make bad decisions, show bias and get things wrong, etc.. That is why there is an appeals procedure. However, the likelihood of them doing so is significantly less than for the rest of us because of their selection criteria, experience and training. If it wasn't, any of us dragged in off the street could sit in judgement. Irving rejected the option of bringing the case in front of twelve of us - quite possibly for good reasons of self interest.

You post, "I'm guessing that if the judge had ruled in Irving's favor, you would not be citing him as an infallible authority." Yes, you are just guessing.

Certainly, if one restricts oneself to Irving as a military historian, as you want to, the judge may have a case, though his early willingness to accept Goebbels's 250,000 dead at Dresden does rather put this into some question as well. However, Irving wasn't in court defending his reputation as a military historian, was he?

Irving is like the Curate's Egg - partly good and partly bad. I wouldn't recommend eating any of the curate's egg without being very, very careful.

Cheers,

Sid

Linkagain
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#94

Post by Linkagain » 18 Oct 2021, 19:18

According to Yad Vashem Jewish Shoah Victiums accounted for are 4 1/2 Million

Sadly of Course are Jewish Shooah Victums whose names are Unknown,, for example in Jewish Community Yizkor {memorial books} there are listing of a mans name plus the only mention of his family "..wife and children."

ALso Jewish Soldiers of the US/Allied Armies...were not just taken POW but also murdered....in December 1944 a C-47 transport plane was shot down...Co _pilot Leaster J Epstein was found in a shallow grave-hands tied with wire and head smashed in with gun butts..
In the Malmedy Massacre at least 4 of the killed POWS were Jewish...
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/133 ... ie-epstein
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/621 ... -s-goffman
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/562 ... -rosenfeld
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/539 ... chwitzgold
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/465 ... #add-to-vc

At the Breda KZ camp a Jewish POW was killed by a German Sgt.Erwin Metz
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/123 ... #add-to-vc

steve248
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#95

Post by steve248 » 19 Oct 2021, 15:00

Linkagain is incorrect in his assertion that "Also Jewish soldiers of the US/Allies armies... were not just taken POW but also murdered..."

The magic word missed out was "some"

British army POWs who said they were Palestinian Jews were not murdered.

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mikegriffith1
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#96

Post by mikegriffith1 » 19 Dec 2021, 13:41

Linkagain wrote:
18 Oct 2021, 19:18
According to Yad Vashem Jewish Shoah Victims accounted for are 4 1/2 Million.
Yad Vashem's lead article on the Holocaust says that "nearly six million" Jews died in the Holocaust:

https://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/about.html

In the museum's official FAQ about the Holocaust, it repeats this position, noting that all serious research "confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million":
There is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. The figure commonly used is the six million quoted by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official. All the serious research confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million. Early calculations range from 5.1 million (Professor Raul Hilberg) to 5.95 million (Jacob Leschinsky). More recent research, by Professor Yisrael Gutman and Dr. Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, estimates the Jewish losses at 5.59–5.86 million, and a study headed by Dr. Wolfgang Benz presents a range from 5.29 million to six million. (https://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/faqs.html)

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#97

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Dec 2021, 15:32

Hi mikegriffith1,

The mere fact that nobody can agree within several hundred thousand on how many died emphasizes just how comprehensive it was in some parts of Europe. Entire villages and perhaps small towns had their entire Jewish populations wiped out and their records destroyed, as did entire streets and perhaps districts in major towns and cities, making it difficult to reconstruct precisely how many they numbered in the first place.

That said, the order of magnitude is absolutely clear - between 5 million and 6 million.

Cheers,

Sid.

Rob Stuart
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#98

Post by Rob Stuart » 19 Dec 2021, 17:16

Sid Guttridge wrote:
19 Dec 2021, 15:32
Hi mikegriffith1,

The mere fact that nobody can agree within several hundred thousand on how many died emphasizes just how comprehensive it was in some parts of Europe. Entire villages and perhaps small towns had their entire Jewish populations wiped out and their records destroyed, as did entire streets and perhaps districts in major towns and cities, making it difficult to reconstruct precisely how many they numbered in the first place.

That said, the order of magnitude is absolutely clear - between 5 million and 6 million.

Cheers,

Sid.
Totally agree.

Claus1960
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#99

Post by Claus1960 » 19 Dec 2021, 18:45

There is the big problem of the effective dimension of Poland Jewish community. In accordance with the last Polish census (1931), in 1939 the Polish Jewish community was no more than 2.7 - 3 millions. After the German and Russian invasions and the destruction of Poland (September 1939), a big part of this community found herself in Russia. In short terms, some historians think that many Jewish victims have been counted double. as Polish and as Russian victims. So the total number should be 3-4 millions, not 5-6 millions.

steve248
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#100

Post by steve248 » 19 Dec 2021, 21:08

Which historians do you think are saying this?

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henryk
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#101

Post by henryk » 19 Dec 2021, 21:27

Claus1960 wrote:
19 Dec 2021, 18:45
There is the big problem of the effective dimension of Poland Jewish community. In accordance with the last Polish census (1931), in 1939 the Polish Jewish community was no more than 2.7 - 3 millions . After the German and Russian invasions and the destruction of Poland (September 1939), a big part of this community found herself in Russia. In short terms, some historians think that many Jewish victims have been counted double. as Polish and as Russian victims. So the total number should be 3-4 millions, not 5-6 millions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_census_of_1931
Population by faith...10.Judaism: 3,113,933
The census used the concept of mother tongue and religion to classify the respondents, rather than nationality. The 1921 census had included a nationality question which was replaced in the 1931 census by the "mother tongue" question; this change was protested by Ukrainians and Jews among others, many of whom were bilingual or trilingual.[7] Moreover, many Jews by religion - almost 12% - considered Polish to be their mother tongue in 1931.[3][8] However, a higher percent of Jews by religion - over 25% - considered themselves to be ethnically (or in terms of national identity) Poles, according to the previous census of 1921.[9] Thus the number of Jews by religion increased as a percentage of the population in the 1931 survey, relative to the numbers of Jews as an ethnicity in the 1921 Census.

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mikegriffith1
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#102

Post by mikegriffith1 » 19 Dec 2021, 22:16

Sid Guttridge wrote:
19 Dec 2021, 15:32
Hi mikegriffith1,

The mere fact that nobody can agree within several hundred thousand on how many died emphasizes just how comprehensive it was in some parts of Europe. Entire villages and perhaps small towns had their entire Jewish populations wiped out and their records destroyed, as did entire streets and perhaps districts in major towns and cities, making it difficult to reconstruct precisely how many they numbered in the first place.

That said, the order of magnitude is absolutely clear - between 5 million and 6 million.

Cheers,

Sid.
I usually phrase it as either "6 million" or "nearly 6 million" or "5 to 6 million."

Linkagain
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#103

Post by Linkagain » 19 Dec 2021, 22:36


steve248
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#104

Post by steve248 » 20 Dec 2021, 12:48

Hannah Szenes and Peretz Goldstein were parachute agents and when captured treated as spies/agents.
German parachute agents who were dropped into the UK were treated the same; as were the three German agents landed from a submarine off the US coast.
They were not POWs.

michael mills
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

#105

Post by michael mills » 04 Jan 2022, 02:26

Which historians do you think are saying this?
Gerald Reitlinger, the author of the 1953 book "The Final Solution", the first comprehensive account in English of the attempt to exterminate the Jews of Europe.

He questioned the then generally accepted figure of six million Jewish victims, noting that it was based on the statement made by the US prosecution at the IMT that just under six million Jews were missing from their pre-war places of residence. He took into account that the prosecution had also stated that of that number of missing, between four and five million could not be accounted for as being among the refugees. His conclusion was that the actual number of dead, as opposed to the number of missing, could not be greater than the number of those unaccounted for, ie a maximum of five million.

Reitlinger then set out to try to calculate the number of victims from each of the countries that came under German occupation. He concluded that the total number was between 4.2 and 4.8 million, the gap being due to uncertainty about the number of victims from Poland, that uncertainty resulting from a lack of definite figures for the number of Polish Jews who actually fell into German hands and also of the number of survivors (eg how many Polish Jews survived in the Soviet Union).

The most reasonable position to take is that any estimate under four million is definitely too low, and any over five million is most probably too high.

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