Bolshevik Partisan Ferocious Brutality Against German POWs

[witness]

The temperature is rising..

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Did they ratified it?

yes -why?

of course we all know the brutality of some German idiots towards Russian POW and civilians

some?
subanimals partisans I see - coming up with new adjectives - how long it did it take you to cook up with this one?

only inmatured imbeciles would write in this kind of way....uncultured words full of stark baboonery

considering the names you were given to Soviet citizens his response was extremely restrained - he actually proposed that it is not you to blaim but rather the surroundings.

[witness]

subanimals partisans

Oleg this is how he perceives the people fighting for their land after it was invaded.Who could counterpose only their courage against the sophisticated Wehrmacht military power.

[POW]

Russia signed the Haague Convention on Land Warfare but not the Geneva Convention (but signed the Convention regarding the treatment of the wounded). During the Nuremberg tribunal Russia declared, they "...feel bounced to the spirit of the Geneva POW-treaty". To ignore the treaty the three major powers did following: The USA and Great Britain declared German prisoners of war to Disarmed Enemy Forces and Surrenderded Enemy Personnel. Russia declared POWs to war criminals [cutting a tree was enough to become a war criminal]. SEPs, DEFs and war criminals were not protected by the conventions.

[Roberto]

oh yes, USSR was a signatory to the Hague Convention? Did they ratified it? are they signatories to the Geneva Convention as well?

panzermahn didn't read my post, otherwise he would know that the ratification of the Hague or Geneva conventions was irrelevant to the existence of a belligerent's obligation to treat prisoners of war according to the rules of these conventions for the simple reason that, according to contemporary prevailing legal opinion, these rules had become Customary International Law.

He would also know that there was a Soviet directive on the treatment of POWs dated 1 July 1941, which largely corresponded with the fundamental principles of international law.

And furthemore he would know that it was the Soviets who in July 1941 proposed to the Nazi government a mutual adherence to the Hague Rules of Land Warfare, a proposal that the Nazi government high-handedly dismissed because it did not fit into its concept of a conventionless war of annihilation.

of course we all know the brutality of some German idiots towards Russian POW and civillians.

Did "some German idiots" slaughter or starve millions of Soviet civilians and prisoners of war?

Isn't it more likely that mass killing on so large a scale was part of a program decided upon at the highest levels of command, for which there is quite a lot of documentary evidence?

Since we all know so much and being indoctrined with atrocities of the germans..

Is that really so, Mr. panzermahn ?

Are the mass killings carried out by your beloved Nazis other than the genocide of the Jews really so well known to the general public ?

You, at any rate, seem to be woefully ignorant thereof.

why cant we learn and talk about the brutality of the bolsheviks and their subanimals partisans...

I don't think someone who employs terms such as "subanimals" and offers no sources in support of his contentions can teach anything to anybody.

As to looking at objective documentation of Soviet atrocities, on the other hand, I have no problems at all. I can even offer some of it myself. There's this footnote I translated from footnote I translated from Christian Streit's Keine Kameraden: Die Wehrmacht und die sowjetischen Kriegsgefangenen 1941-1945 (1997 edition, footnote 155 to pages 108-109), for instance:

Otto Bräutigam wrote in his memoirs that in the late summer of 1941, upon his complaint about the bad treatment of Soviet prisoners of war, the Army High Command had replied that the Red Army treated German prisoners in the same way. When B. thereupon examined the collection of cases put together at the Army High Command, he came to the conclusion "that on the whole there were about 180 cases, of which several had obviously been reported by various entitities and were thus included in the collection several times". (Otto Bräutigam, So hat es sich zugetragen. Ein Leben als Soldat und Diplomat, Würzburg 1968, page 376. The files I examined confirm this impression. An "assessment of the enemy" by the Ic/AO of Army Group Center dated 10.3.1942, which the Wehrmacht High Command / Amt Ausl.Abw./Abw. II [Colonel Lahousen] communicated to the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, attributed the shooting of German prisoners of war to the "quickly spread knowledge of the misery of Russian prisoners of war": Federal Archives R 41/169, page 259.

You may also look at this thread, if you really want to learn something about Soviet atrocities:

“Father, shoot me”
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 86ed17bdab

By the way, I'm still waiting for the name of this “german doctor who participate in the drive towards moscow” that you referred to in your first post on this thread.

[Roberto]

Russia declared POWs to war criminals [cutting a tree was enough to become a war criminal]. SEPs, DEFs and war criminals were not protected by the conventions.

I'm aware that at a certain point in time, in the late 1940s or early 1950s IIRC, the Soviet government employed this trick to retain a number of prisoners of war as a labor force.

But just how many German prisoners of war in Soviet camps were affected by it?

[POW]

But just how many German prisoners of war in Soviet camps were affected by it?

This question cannot be answered. It is absolutely unknown how many of the 3.5 Million German POWs and 900.000 German civilians were convicted as war criminals.

Regarding the treatment of Russian prisoners you are right. The German Gvt. did not keep the Convention - unjustly - toward the Russian prisoners because Russia did not signed the treaty. So Germany differed from Western and Russian prisoners. The treatment of the Russian prisoners was based on Rassenlehre and their inhuman consequences.

[Marcus]

panzermahn & witness,

There is no need for that unfriendly tone so cool it.

/Marcus

[Paul Timms]

There is a site dedicated to thousands of minor war crimes trials.
An alarming number of Panzermanns heroes were tried for killing German civilians or service personnel.
Any comment PM.

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeu.htm#bm17

[Oleg Grigoryev]

I wonder if I should change my handle here to “Bolshevik partisans-cum-barbarian-cum-subanimal” , would not fit in the textbox probably…

[Roberto]

I wonder if I should change my handle here to “Bolshevik partisans-cum-barbarian-cum-subanimal” , would not fit in the textbox probably…

Try "Bolshevik subanimal", that may fit.

In any case, I hope that panzermahn doesn't forget to tell us who his “german doctor who participate in the drive towards moscow” was.

[witness]

Marcus
I apologize if I was too abrupt in my response to Mr.panzermahn.
The only excuse I have is that Mr. panzermahn IMO called the Russian partisans( whom I consider as people fighting for their homeland )subanimals.
IMHO it is outrageous.
My Best Regards,
Witness
P.S.
I 've never called Mr panzermahn any names such as "imbecile" for example.
I only suggested that the reason for being not particurarly friendly to the
Russian people in his posts might have been due to the unfavourable
climate conditions in the pecular environment Mr panzermahn enjoys in this particular time of the year.

[Panzermahn]

okay i 'm very sorry for the term i made that offended some forum members..es tut meir lied ... perhaps i was too fueled by the flames of rhetoric..I don't mean every Russian is a coward murderer...there are also brave and courageous Russians who rescued german civillians as stated by Cornelius Ryan in his book, the Last battle..i only meant only those who murdered brutally surrendered german pows as cowards and subanimals.. i also believe the in the legitimate acts of resistance against the occupying forces provided the resistance obey the rules of warfare as stated by Geneva convention


Okay for the doctor's name, i found it in a book...Dr Heinrich Haape and his narrative of a german battalion suicide stand against 4 russian division during the winter nights of Battle of Moscow..

[Roberto]

Okay for the doctor's name, i found it in a book...Dr Heinrich Haape and his narrative of a german battalion suicide stand against 4 russian division during the winter nights of Battle of Moscow..

I presume it is this book:

Title: Endstation Moskau 1941 - 1942
Author: Dr. Heinrich Haape

[...]

Description: The memoir of a battalion surgeon and his experiences during the drive on Moscow at the end of 1941. The author was the battalion surgeon for the III. Bataillon, Infanterie-Regiment 18 of the 6. Infanterie-Division, and was witness to the desperate fighting that occurred as the 6. Infanterie-Division plowed ever closer to Moscow in the closing months of 1941. The bitter winter, and the first Soviet Winter Offensive brought the German advance to a halt and pushed the battered divisions back from the Soviet capital. Of the 800 men in his battalion, only 28 survived the first winter in front of Moscow. This book follows the author through those horrible days, and describes the heavy cost of the fighting from a human perspective.

http://www.angelraybooks.com/books/motor/0013mv.htm

[witness]

of course we all know the brutality of some German idiots towards Russian POW and civilians

From "Hitler's shadow war" (Donald M.McKale)

On the central front alone,between September and December 1941,
over a quarter million Soviet POWs died in German captivity.Other parts of the Eastern Front had similar death rates of Russian POWs.