Should Russia seek apology for soviet war-crimes in germany

[David Thompson]

Lit. You wrote:

Sorry, but where you noticed that I "evade the question" before?

When the question was asked of you twice by Kunikov and once by killchola, and for a fourth time by me, and you failed to provide an answer with a verifiable citation (book and page) on each occasion. See my post at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 267#776267 for details.

You also wrote, when asked for your sources:

These numbers and calculations are well known in Lithuania. One of the sources that I've mention is well known study by criminologist, former MP, Dr. Ruta Gajauskaite (mentioned above). She named (in many articles) few sources that I've listed also. I have no intention to find and translate here all Lithuanian studies, also the other sources that I've listed. I just trust our scientists and historiens who are working on this in Lithuanian Genocide center for 15 years already.

This response falls short of what is required by the forum and section rules, posted for all to see at: H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

If a poster raises a question about the events, other posters may answer the question with evidence. If a poster stops asking questions and begins to express a point of view, he then becomes an advocate for that viewpoint. When a person becomes an advocate, he has the burden of providing evidence for his point of view. If he has no evidence, or doesn't provide it when asked, it is reasonable for the reader to conclude that his opinion or viewpoint is uninformed and may fairly be discounted or rejected.

Undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum.

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In regard to your remark:

I have no intention to find and translate here all Lithuanian studies, also the other sources that I've listed.

I have no intention of repeating either my question or my warning. If you can't or won't back up your claims, don't bother posting here.

[Lit.]

I have no intention of repeating either my question or my warning. If you can't or won't back up your claims, don't bother posting here.

Please forgive me, but I really don't understood what is needed from me (my English is not very good - so this could be the reason).

I was asked to give the source, as I understood, and I gave the source and the author, and date, and number of issue, even more - I gave several other sources in addition. But I have asked to give the source again and again. Like I really did not.

So what is needed else? Please explain in simple words.

[Kunikov]

I have no intention of repeating either my question or my warning. If you can't or won't back up your claims, don't bother posting here.

Please forgive me, but I really don't understood what is needed from me (my English is not very good - so this could be the reason).

I was asked to give the source, as I understood, and I gave the source and the author, and date, and number of issue, even more - I gave several other sources in addition. But I have asked to give the source again and again. Like I really did not.

So what is needed else? Please explain in simple words.

If you could quote from the sources you presented that will explain to us how the number 1.2 million was developed, or that 800,000 civilians were killed by the Soviets/Red Army (?), that is what he means.

[David Thompson]

Lit. -- You wrote, in answer to my post at

I was asked to give the source, as I understood, and I gave the source and the author, and date, and number of issue, even more - I gave several other sources in addition. But I have asked to give the source again and again. Like I really did not.

So what is needed else? Please explain in simple words.

You did not provide the source, the author, the date, or the number of issue for any of the claims.

You remarked:

Please forgive me, but I really don't understood what is needed from me (my English is not very good - so this could be the reason).

It could be, but your problems with the language only seem to arise when you are asked for specific sources. Otherwise, you don't seem to have a problem expressing yourself in the English language. Readers who think I may be intolerant can see all of your 152 previous posts at http://forum.axishistory.com/search.php ... 2082801714 and make up their own minds about whether your English language problem is general, or situational.

So what is needed else? Please explain in simple words.

What is it about this question that is confusing you:

What are your specific sources (with page numbers, so the information can be checked by our readers) for these claims?

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 267#776267

[Lit.]

If you could quote from the sources you presented that will explain to us how the number 1.2 million was developed, or that 800,000 civilians were killed by the Soviets/Red Army (?), that is what he means.

Thanks. Now I probably get what is needed. The source, that I've mentioned, had no much anatomy or methodology of calculations. This is just article, where only results of calculations are published. But at the end there are sources that I've included also.

If you are interested in methodologies I'll try to find out something. But this could take a long time. There is much more information about it regarding losses in the territory of Lithuania.

Should Russia seek apology for soviet war-crimes in Germany

This is the main topic, isn't it? So the main point of my first post was - crimes committed by Russia in East Prussia was also committed to the Lithuanian nation and Lithuania. So Russia have to apologize the Lithuania also for crimes committed in this part of "Germany".

I don't want to discuss here on preciseness of numbers of losses, because this is off topic and not the main point of my post.

If in some another discussion (not about numbers and calculations) I would only mention for example 6 million Jews killed by Nazis (just to show the magnitude of Holocaust), and some member will start to provoke me, asking about sources and methodology, how and where I get such numbers, I would do the same - I will give only some source of some article. Because I trust the people who are working on it - criminologists, scientists, historians (except of Soviet origin).

But if you are interested in loses of Lithuanian nation during Nazi-Soviet activities in my country, please start another topic of such name.

[VtwinVince]

Kunikov seems to be an apologist for Soviet war crimes. Most historians agree that at least 2 million German civilians died during their forced expulsion from the eastern provinces of East Prussia, West Prussia, Pommerania, Mecklenburg, Silesia etc., either from direct actions by Soviet forces or the consequences thereof. At least 20-25,000 alone died during the torpedoing of the Wilhelm Gustloff, Goya and Steuben. You can quote sources until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that these horrific things happened.

[Twix]

Kunikov seems to be an apologist for Soviet war crimes. Most historians agree that at least 2 million German civilians died during their forced expulsion from the eastern provinces of East Prussia, West Prussia, Pommerania, Mecklenburg, Silesia etc., either from direct actions by Soviet forces or the consequences thereof. At least 20-25,000 alone died during the torpedoing of the Wilhelm Gustloff, Goya and Steuben. You can quote sources until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that these horrific things happened.

I don't think Kunikov is an apologist for Soviet war crimes. When someone presents a claim, and provides vague supporting evidence, such "claims" have to be questioned.

[David Thompson]

VtwinVince -- You said:

Kunikov seems to be an apologist for Soviet war crimes.

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http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

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[Oleg Grigoryev]

At least 20-25,000 alone died during the torpedoing of the Wilhelm Gustloff, Goya and Steuben.

none of which is a warcrime

[David Thompson]

Everyone -- This thread started back in 2002, a couple of months before I became the moderator of this section of the forum. Under the present rules regarding opinion threads, this one would be locked.

3. Opinions

Since the purpose of this section of the forum is to exchange information and hold informed discussions about historical problems, posts which express unsolicited opinions without supporting facts and sources do not promote the purposes of the forum. Consequently, such posts are subject to deletion after a warning to the poster.

The same reasoning applies to opinion threads.

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

I am not seeing any reasons why the present-day government of Russia should apologize for any of the acts of the USSR -- during WWII or any other period beginning with the establishment of the Soviet state in 1917. It doesn't seem to me that this thread is going anywhere. After 22 pages and a little more, I think the subject has been thoroughly aired. If posters think that there is anything serious to be said on this topic, please post it, but I think the readers have been treated to enough moralistic rants.

[VtwinVince]

Thanks for the clarification, Mr. Moderator, however I don't think my comments constitute a personal insult. I directed my comments towards Kunikov's bizarre statement that German civilians "fled west", the implication being that they weren't victims of a massacre. And Oleg, could you please clarify what constitutes, in your opinion, a "war crime"? If civilians are fair game, then I guess the term has no meaning and this thread is pointless.

[David Thompson]

VtwinVince -- (1) You said:

Thanks for the clarification, Mr. Moderator, however I don't think my comments constitute a personal insult.

Your comment was a personal insult, and I told you so. Consider it a warning, and don't repeat the mistake.

(2) You asked:

And Oleg, could you please clarify what constitutes, in your opinion, a "war crime"?

"War crimes" have an objective meaning, which can be seen by reference to the research thread "The Laws of War" at
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=26829
Discussions here are carried on within this context.

(3) Since you introduced the term with your comment:

Kunikov seems to be an apologist for Soviet war crimes. Most historians agree that at least 2 million German civilians died during their forced expulsion from the eastern provinces of East Prussia, West Prussia, Pommerania, Mecklenburg, Silesia etc., either from direct actions by Soviet forces or the consequences thereof. At least 20-25,000 alone died during the torpedoing of the Wilhelm Gustloff, Goya and Steuben. You can quote sources until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that these horrific things happened.

You can start by explaining why the torpedoing of the Wilhelm Gustloff, Goya and Steuben were war crimes. One doesn't use a term to characterize an event and then, without providing an explanation, call on his opponent to define it.

[Lit.]

I am not seeing any reasons why the present-day government of Russia should apologize for any of the acts of the USSR -- during WWII or any other period beginning with the establishment of the Soviet state in 1917. It doesn't seem to me that this thread is going anywhere. After 22 pages and a little more, I think the subject has been thoroughly aired. If posters think that there is anything serious to be said on this topic, please post it, but I think the readers have been treated to enough moralistic rants.

Dear David, I rather think that you are not the right person to be the Moderator for this thread, because you are clearly supporting one side, one opinion in this topic.

Moderator, seems to me, have to support any of the opinions. I think Moderator have to support the Truth and the Right to express all the opinions (in polite way). And to guard the topic from all kinds of provocative questions which are off topic. But instead of doing this, you are doing the latter.

[Marcus]

Lit.

David is making a fine job as moderator in this thread and is not supporting any side in the discussion. The burden of proof lies with the person who presents a fact, in this case the number of victims given by yourself, in other cases it has been numbers given by other members such as Kunikov and they have been treated exactly the same way as you.

/Marcus

[Marcus]

I see no hope of this thread becoming anything else then an opinon thread and everyone has had many chances to express their point of view so I'm now locking it.

The specific events discussed here with (real or alledged) atrocities by the Soviet forces definitely deserves discussion (fact-based discussions that is, not just opinions) so please feel free to discuss the individual events in the various active threads on those topics, if you want to discuss an event previously not covered you are of course more than welcome to start a new thread on it.


VtwinVince (welcome to the forum btw), if you want to present your case for the Gustloff sinking being a warcrime, please do so in this thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41999


/Marcus