Irma Grese Photos

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Penn44
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#46

Post by Penn44 » 05 Oct 2006, 12:33

Dodkins:

Please explain your "glorious" comment. I would like to hear at least some measure of evidence from you to support support your claim. Given that this highly unusual claim I think a call for evidence is an appropriate request.

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#47

Post by Penn44 » 05 Oct 2006, 12:49

No one has furnished any evidence to suggest that Grese was forced to stay on the job. Does anyone have any evidence?

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#48

Post by simondodkins » 05 Oct 2006, 13:11

Penn44 wrote:Dodkins:

Please explain your "glorious" comment. I would like to hear at least some measure of evidence from you to support support your claim. Given that this highly unusual claim I think a call for evidence is an appropriate request.

Penn44
Whilst your request is appropriate, condescending remarks showing a lack of respect towards other posters is, however, not appropriate.

In response to your request, please follow this link which takes you to a high school text book, which describes Himmers view of the extermination of Jews (amongst other undesirables) as "glorious":

http://www.routledge.com/textbooks/0415 ... pdf/50.pdf

Perhaps it is not so highly unusual as you might think.

Simon.

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#49

Post by David Thompson » 05 Oct 2006, 15:33

Penn44 and simondodkins -- Please avoid personal comments in posts.

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#50

Post by Penn44 » 05 Oct 2006, 18:00

simondodkins wrote: In response to your request, please follow this link which takes you to a high school text book, which describes Himmers view of the extermination of Jews (amongst other undesirables) as "glorious":

http://www.routledge.com/textbooks/0415 ... pdf/50.pdf

Perhaps it is not so highly unusual as you might think.

Simon.
High school textbook? Well, at least that is a step above the comic book that someone referenced a few months ago, and for that, I salute you.

From just a brief scan of your "high school textbook" source, it appears that your source is pursuing a certain agenda ("Holocaust Promotion" as discussed on this forum before), and is perhaps somewhat biased in its historical interpretation and reporting of the facts; as such, I suggest that one should consider caution in using assessments from like sources. Hopefully, that textbook is not in wide-circulation.

Your original claim was "Some people have suggested that the Germans considered the Holocaust "glorious" work and that Germans were falling over themselves to apply for positions on the camp staff so they could exercise their sadistic desires to kill, starve and torture Jews for the fun of it."

Your "some people have suggested" sounds more like a reference to Daniel Goldhagen who a few years ago argued that the overwhelming majority Germans were eager participants in the Holocaust ("Hitler's Willing Executioners), and according to Goldhagen, many found pleasure in it as evidenced by their zeal to torture.

You need to quantify what you mean by "Germans"? How many Germans are we talking about? Himmler, by himself, does not constitute "the Germans."

In lieu of referencing a "high school textbook," you could have used an original source to back up your claim such as Himmler's often-referenced 1943 Poznan speech (actually, this is what I thought you were referring to when you made your "glorious" comment). If memory serves me, Himmler does not use the word, "glorious" within the speech, however, he did paint the "security" work of the SS as being of a noble, self-sacrificing nature for which the German nation would never know the full story, and therefore, never acknowledge the SS for their purported important contribution to the welfare of the nation.

In some sense, this self-sacrificing sentiment also appears in Grese's correspondence. Someone referenced one of Grese's letters to her sister, Helene. In that letter, Grese states essentially that she dies for Germany. Grese had taken the theme of SS self-sacrifice for the nation and evolved into her martyrdom for the nation.

The importance in Grese's view of her martyrdom is this: Marius contends that Grese is essentially an unfortunate victim of circumstances beyond her control. He contends that the German Labor Office sent Grese to the concentration camp to work, and that she did not have a choice. Even if that element is true, the rest of Grese's story paints another picture. It is clear that Grese quickly became a willing as well as effective participant within that system. I know of no SS guard, male or female punished for requesting a transfer. As I mentioned before, within her first few months of service, Grese took a substantial promotion which placed her in charge of 33,000 female prisoners; this is not a small promotion. Although there were a number of other female guards at the camp, the camp command chose Grese over all others. Evidently, the camp command saw something in Grese's ability, dedication to duty, and her willingness to serve despite her relative young age. Coupled with the evidence of her willing participation within the camp system, Grese's written statements (both her poem and letter to sister) shows evidence that she clearly saw herself as part of the camp system and had bought into its values.

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#51

Post by Marius » 05 Oct 2006, 19:05

Andreas wrote: I don't think there is anything that would allow us to draw a conclusion one way or the other. One figure I have come across is that the average annual wage for a skilled worker was RM 2,000, or roughly three times what Irma Grese made. But from this the worker would have to support a family, rent, food, and all or part of these were probably taken care of in the case of guards. So for an 18 year old with no job skills, the wage may actually have been very good. If you disagree, please feel free to show us comparison figures of what she could have made in other positions.
Unhappily I don't have as to prove and to compare salary conditions of the time.
I just wanted to consider the following:
1) Irma's great responsibilities in maintaining the discipline on 20.000 starving people and rioted,
2) constant danger of being killed in a rebellion,
3) to live in conditions of great unsoundness and infectious diseases
Summarizing: the degree of life danger was very high. All this should have a very good wage. Final result: Irma left in money, for your sisters Helene e Lieschen, a value of RM 439.65 and an economy of RM 4.391.57 and some personal objects.
Andreas wrote: We already know that she did beat people even though she was not allowed to. A cynic may term that ability to engage in sadistic activity a non-wage benefit of her job.
Without doubts, Irma had to be very rigorous in the discipline, as in the case of the robbery of victuals of the kitchen. If Irma lost the 20.000 starving people's control would be a true chaos.
Unintentionally to justify Irma's behavior is necessary to understand her procedure. If she was really sadistic, or not, nobody can prove. Each person can reach your own conclusions looking for an impartial analysis of the depositions of the witness.
Andreas wrote: 1) That is not correct for the concentration camps, but maybe more true for the extermination camps. Ordinary people did have chances to observe and interact with worker's columns from e.g. Aussenlager. The same would go for workers working alongside forced labour coming from camps.
2) See response to 1) on top of that, Guards knew, administrators knew, and former inmates (e.g. political prisoners who were released) knew.
3) So what?
1 and 2) I Really expressed wrong. I wanted to say that, the Germany or any other country, knew about what it was really happening in the concentration camps, as the medical experiences and executions in mass. The fact is that Irma Grese, or any other person that would work in the concentration camps, they only saw the hard reality after they be there.
3) other mistake of my part because I didn't explain my thought. I wanted to say that Irma, or any other aufseherin, would never imagine when they were still being trained in Ravensbrück, in the case of Irma (1942), of the brutal future that she would find, or better, of the participation direct or indirect, of the exterminations in mass. To be in Ravensbrück, receiving training, in 1942 is a reality, to be in Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1944 it is another reality.

Best regards,

Marius

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#52

Post by Andreas » 05 Oct 2006, 20:32

Thanks for the clarification Marius.

All the best

Andreas

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#53

Post by Marius » 05 Oct 2006, 21:00

Penn44 wrote:In some sense, this self-sacrificing sentiment also appears in Grese's correspondence. Someone referenced one of Grese's letters to her sister, Helene. In that letter, Grese states essentially that she dies for Germany. Grese had taken the theme of SS self-sacrifice for the nation and evolved into her martyrdom for the nation.

The importance in Grese's view of her martyrdom is this: Marius contends that Grese is essentially an unfortunate victim of circumstances beyond her control. He contends that the German Labor Office sent Grese to the concentration camp to work, and that she did not have a choice. Even if that element is true, the rest of Grese's story paints another picture. It is clear that Grese quickly became a willing as well as effective participant within that system. I know of no SS guard, male or female punished for requesting a transfer. As I mentioned before, within her first few months of service, Grese took a substantial promotion which placed her in charge of 33,000 female prisoners; this is not a small promotion. Although there were a number of other female guards at the camp, the camp command chose Grese over all others. Evidently, the camp command saw something in Grese's ability, dedication to duty, and her willingness to serve despite her relative young age. Coupled with the evidence of her willing participation within the camp system, Grese's written statements (both her poem and letter to sister) shows evidence that she clearly saw herself as part of the camp system and had bought into its values.
Penn44,

I accept perfectly what you wrote and I cannot reply that.
See below (the griffins are mine):
Extract of commandant Josef Kramer's declaration (TRIAL OF JOSEF KRAMER AND FORTY-FOUR OTHERS(THE BELSEN TRIAL) by Raymond Phillips

Kramer Cross-Examined by Grese's council Major Cranfield (page 172)

Q: Is it true that Grese was not in the S.S.?

A: Yes. She was employed as a supervisor of a Gefolgschaft.

Q: Did you send for Grese to come from Auschwitz to Belsen?

A: No, but when she came with a transport I made a request to
Oranienburg that she should remain with me.

Q: Would the police dogs obey only the orders of the man or woman who
had trained them?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Grese ever have a dog at Auschwitz or Belsen?

A: I never saw her with a dog either on or off duty.

Q: As her commanding officer will you tell the Court how Grese
discharged her duties as Aufseherin?

A: As her Kommandant I can only say the very best about her. She took
her duties very seriously and discharged them very well indeed.


Q: What do you say about the accusations made against her of shooting
prisoners with a pistol and of treating them with savage cruelty?

A: It is not true.

Q: You were a member at auschwitz when the Aufseherinnen made
themselves whips; what were they made of?

A: Some sort of cellophane paper or cellulose. I prohibited the
carrying of whips.

[ . . . ]
and
Extract of Franz Hoessler's declaration (TRIAL OF JOSEF KRAMER AND FORTY-FOUR OTHERS(THE BELSEN TRIAL) by Raymond Phillips

Cross-examined by Major Cranfield, Grese's attorney (page 201):

Q: Had Grese a dog at Auschwitz?

A: No.

Q: Will you give your opinion of Grese's work as an Aufseherin?

A: Grese worked in the camp post office, but in the evening, when
working parties returned to camp, she had, just as all the other staff
who were in the administration, to help the Blockfuehrerinnen during
their Appelle. It was part of my duty to see whether they were
trustworthy enough and efficient, and I must say that Grese was very
good. Whenever I gave her any job to do I was quite sure she would do
this job and fulfil it to my entire satisfaction.


Q: You have heard the accusations made against her in this court, that
she shot prisoners with a pistol and treated prisoners with savage
cruelty. What do you, as her Lagerfuehrer, say about that?

A: I have to say that, in my opinion, Grese particualrly is quite
incapable of even loading a pistol or firing a shot. As to the
accusation that she had beaten prisoners, any Blockfuehrer,
Lagerfuehrer or Aufseherin who tries to keep things in order will have
some prisoners who will say that she is right to do that and some who
will say she is not right in doing it.

Q: Witness Szafran stated that at a selection, at which you were
present, two selected girls jumped out of the window and Grese shot
them twice while they were lying on the ground. What do you say to
that?

A: I do not agree with it at all, because I do not remember that I
made any selections. The prisoner could not have jumped out of the
window because in Camp A, Block 9, the windows are made in such a
manner that they cannot be opened, so if she had done it she must have
jumped through the glass of the window. If Grese had been shooting in
front of the block it would have been my duty to go out and see what
it was all about, but I never heard any shots fired in Camp A.

[ . . . ]
But I have something to say in defense of Irma Grese:

1) the fact that she has accomplished your duties strictly doesn't want to say that she was a monster, she just executed your efficiency duties.
2) she was a youth girl, as well as the whole german youth, constantly fed by propaganda of patriotism, it honors and sacrifice, still joining plus, in the case of her, the slogan of SS: " Meine Ehre Heist Treue "
3) accusations that she selected for the gas chambers. They were not true because only doctors could accomplish such work.
4) accusations that she ordered guards they shoot in prisoners. They were not true because she didn't have authority military or administrative for that.
Deposition of Josef Kramer: "At Auschwitz the Political Department was also responsible for all the selections from incoming
transports for the gas chamber. In the crematorium the S.S. and prisoners -- Sonderkommando -- were under the command of the Kommandant of Auschwitz, Hoess."
5) accusations of having shoot in prisoners. An only victim's name is not known.
6) the history of your dog. This is a controversial history. Will it be that Irma Grese trained a dog?
The watchdogs only obeyed who trained them.
7) your age was not considered nor the exceptional situation of this period.
8) heavy responsibility for a youth girl in watching 20.000 prisoners.
9) Irma Grese have been sentence to 15 years of prison, but your execution was not correct.

It is for all this that I defend Irma Grese.

Best regards,

Marius

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#54

Post by David Thompson » 06 Oct 2006, 02:43

Marius -- Would you please give sources of information for your claims for the readers, such as:
3) accusations that she selected for the gas chambers. They were not true because only doctors could accomplish such work.
4) accusations that she ordered guards they shoot in prisoners. They were not true because she didn't have authority military or administrative for that.

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#55

Post by michael mills » 06 Oct 2006, 03:56

Here is one source stating that doctors had the prime responsibility for selections:

http://www.spectacle.org/695/doctors.html

Another one:

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/au ... aq-12.html

Yet another:

http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl ... ale&id=367

And another:

http://www.nizkor.org/auschwitz-av.html

Here is a site which claims that prior to Spring 1943 slecetions were carried out by the camp commander and his subordinates, but from that date the chief doctor at Auschwitz, Eduard Wirths, asserted medical control of the process:

http://www.nizkor.org/auschwitz-av.html

An excerpt from the BBC book on Auschwitz by Laurence Rees, claiming that the decision on life or death at selections were "always" made by doctors, and other staff attending the selections did not make that decision:

http://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/publi ... ew=excerpt

A site stating that doctors "supervised" the selections:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/short- ... gele.shtml

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#56

Post by Marius » 06 Oct 2006, 06:34

Michael Mills.
3) accusations that she selected for the gas chambers. They were not true because only doctors could accomplish such work.
Thank you very much for your post.
I could not make a better work than this.
4) accusations that she ordered guards they shoot in prisoners. They were not true because she didn't have authority military or administrative for that.
Commandant's Josef Kramer words:
Extract of commandant Josef Kramer's declaration (TRIAL OF JOSEF KRAMER AND FORTY-FOUR OTHERS(THE BELSEN TRIAL) by Raymond Phillips

Kramer Cross-Examined by Grese's council Major Cranfield (page 172)

Q: Is it true that Grese was not in the S.S.?

A: Yes. She was employed as a supervisor of a Gefolgschaft.
Article written by J. Belling after study of the book " The Beautiful Beast: The Life & Crimes of SS-Aufseherin Irma Grese " by Daniel P. Brown
"Although women did serve in substantial numbers as functionaries in the camps, the actual structure of the SS has made it very difficult at times to create a clear record of their participation. However, while women were HIRED as EMPLOYEES of the SS, they were NOT actual members of the sacred order....Technically, the female guards were classified as SS-Gefolge (SS-Followers) and were thereby an auxiliary group. As employees of the Reich (Reichsangestellte), they were compensated for their service via a governmental wage agreement."

"The SS did not train them to become administrators of the camps; in fact, FKL Ravensbrueck (Frauen Konzentrations Lager), the only major women's camp in the Third Reich, was managed by male SS-Officers. In all cases, the women merely served within the SS ranks at the behest of their male superiors....The SS Aufseherinnen appear in significant numbers only toward the end of the war...."

"The SS, originally conceived as and bound by a form of mystic brotherhood as well as by the corresponding impulse that Germanic men must defend their women and children, were hardly disposed to integrating women fully into their Schwarze Korps (Black Corps).
In fact, the prospect of female SS-Supervisors dispensing orders seemed completely[ contrary to everything that the SS-men and their elite formation stood for......One can imagine that it would be difficult to find SS commanders who had acknowledged, much less valued, SS-Aufseherinnen assigned to their guard units."

Best regards,

Marius

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#57

Post by David Thompson » 06 Oct 2006, 06:37

(1) Let's look at this carefully. The allegations that Irma Grese participated in the "selektion" process are (my emphases throughout):

(a)
Ilona Stein, a Jewess from Hungary, said that she was arrested on 8th June, 1944, and sent to Auschwitz. On 1st January, 1945, she was transferred to Belsen.

At Auschwitz, Kramer, Grese and Mengele took part in selections : from the more experienced inmates she had learnt that the younger ones were taken to labour camps to work and the others to the crematorium.
(b)
Gertrude Diament, a Jewess from Czechoslovakia, stated that during 1942 she had seen Volkenrath make selections ; she would give orders that prisoners be loaded on to lorries and transported to the gas chamber. Grese was also responsible for selecting victims for the gas chambers at Auschwitz.
(c)
Erika Thuna, an Austrian Jewess, said that Kramer and Grese both took part in selections for the gas chamber at Auschwitz.
Note that of the three actions, two involve participation rather than making the "selektion" herself.

(2) The unsourced counterclaim, from Marius:
accusations that she selected for the gas chambers. They were not true because only doctors could accomplish such work.
Note that here there Marius has not made any distinction between participation in the "selektion" and being responsible for the "selektion" process itself.

(3) Michael Mills's sources, in order of appearance:

(a)
Doctors played a crucial role at Auschwitz. They participated in virtually all selections, decided on life and death among the patients in the medical blocks (executing the weakest with phenol injections), and in fact thronged to sign up at Auschwitz because of the plentiful human experimental material available in Block 10.
http://www.spectacle.org/695/doctors.html
This passage describes participation only, not exclusive responsibility.

(b)
There the Jews are unloaded and examined for their fitness to work by a team of doctors, in the presence of the camp commandant and several SS officers. At this point anyone who can somehow be incorporated into the work program is put in a special camp. The curably ill are sent straight to a medical camp and are restored to health through a special diet. The basic principle behind everything is: conserve all manpower for work.
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/au ... aq-12.html
This passage also describes participation only, not exclusive responsibility.

(c)
Immediately after disembarking from the train, the Jews had to form two columns: women and children in one, and men in the other. SS physicians and male nurses then conducted a selection on the ramp.
http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl ... ale&id=367
This passage suggests that the making of the "selektions" was conducted by docors and male nurses, not doctors exclusively. Notrhing is said about participation.

(d)
I, Dr. Hans Munch hereby attest that, as an SS physician on duty in auschwitz in 1944, I witnessed the selection process of those who were to live and those who were to die. Other SS physicians on duty in the camps made selections at the platform where the transports arrived. They also made selections in the barracks. I was exempt from performing selections because I had refused to do so.
http://www.nizkor.org/auschwitz-av.html
This passage suggests that Muench witnessed the selektion process, and that doctors made selections. There is no statement that, when it came to a "selektion," that "only doctors could accomplish such work."

(e)
Here is a site which claims that prior to Spring 1943 slecetions were carried out by the camp commander and his subordinates, but from that date the chief doctor at Auschwitz, Eduard Wirths, asserted medical control of the process:
http://www.nizkor.org/auschwitz-av.html
The link given here leads to the same passage quoted in (3)(d) above. Assuming that the synopsis is accurate, it does not state that "only doctors could accomplish such work."

(f) Oscar Schmidt* was one of the majority of Germans who accepted their part in the process of mass murder. Schmidt attended "selections", the processing of new arrivals at Auschwitz. He did not determine who would live and who would die—those decisions were always made by SS doctors. His job was to ensure that the belongings of the Jews were taken away and held securely until they were sorted.
http://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/publi ... ew=excerpt]

The conclusion in this secondary work is contradicted by the quotes given in (3)(c) and (e), above. Furthermore, the passage refers to the determinations of "who would live and who would die" -- not participation in the process (as by guarding, assistance, or choosing who would live to work and die slowly, rather than die immediately).

(g)
More than any other SS doctor assigned to Auschwitz, Mengele seemed comfortable with the harsh regime and murderous proceeding at the camp. Mengele was assigned - as were other doctors at Auschwitz - to supervise the "selections" of incoming transports. These selections determined which would be sent immediately to the gas chamber, and which would become prisoners in the camp. Unlike several of the other physicians, however, he seemed to glory in the power it gave him.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/short- ... gele.shtml
Again, this refers to supervision of the "selektion" process. This allows for the choice to be made by others, and confirmed by a physician. Furthermore, it does not address the issue of participation in the process.

With the exception of Dr. Muench's experiences, these are all from unfootnoted or sourced secondary statements. We've got a lot further to go to show that "only doctors could accomplish such work."
Last edited by David Thompson on 06 Oct 2006, 06:45, edited 1 time in total.

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#58

Post by David Thompson » 06 Oct 2006, 06:43

Marius -- You referred to "Article written by J. Belling after study of the book " The Beautiful Beast: The Life & Crimes of SS-Aufseherin Irma Grese " by Daniel P. Brown"

I see that this article can be found on Carlos W. Porter's anti-semitic website at:
http://www.cwporter.com/heroic.htm

I also see that the article has no specific sources. That's not good enough as a source for a claim at AHF.
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If a poster raises a question about the events, other posters may answer the question with evidence. If a poster stops asking questions and begins to express a point of view, he then becomes an advocate for that viewpoint. When a person becomes an advocate, he has the burden of providing evidence for his point of view. If he has no evidence, or doesn't provide it when asked, it is reasonable for the reader to conclude that his opinion or viewpoint is uninformed and may fairly be discounted or rejected.

Undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum.

This requirement applies to each specific claim. In the past, some posters have attempted to evade the proof requirement by resort to the following tactics, none of which are acceptable here:

A general reference to a website, or a book without page references; citations or links to racist websites; generalized citations to book reviews; and citations to unsourced articles.

Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after warning.

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http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

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#59

Post by Penn44 » 06 Oct 2006, 06:49

David is entirely correct in his analysis.

Even if Grese did not perform selections she clearly participated in the selection process. As senior female guard, Grese's supervision and control of the prisoners at the selection area means that she participated in the selection process. From a standpoint of guilt, Grese had a share of it. The doctors who performed the selections could not have done so without the assistance of Grese and the other guards.

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#60

Post by Marius » 06 Oct 2006, 07:57

David Thompson wrote:Marius -- You referred to "Article written by J. Belling after study of the book " The Beautiful Beast: The Life & Crimes of SS-Aufseherin Irma Grese " by Daniel P. Brown"

I see that this article can be found on Carlos W. Porter's anti-semitic website at:
http://www.cwporter.com/heroic.htm

I also see that the article has no specific sources. That's not good enough as a source for a claim at AHF.
David Thompson,

I didn't have any intention of hurting the principle of this forum.
I am not nazi or revisionist. I just wanted to announce the readers, with referred him article, because he brings some explanation, but I recognize that this article doesn't prove anything. I believe sincerely that the fact of being an article done by the revisionists, doesn't have the smallest importance since there are proofs. I believe deeply in the impartiality of analysis of the facts. To the reader the choice in what to believe. I respect and I accept the decisions of this forum.

Best regards,

Marius

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