The Camps from the SS perspective

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Birgitte Heuschkel
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#31

Post by Birgitte Heuschkel » 21 Nov 2002, 16:11

I think Rick is referring to how people with dangerous information had a tendency to end up in the first line of combat somewhere the government felt certain they wouldn't return from. I remember reading somewhere a testimony from a camp official that after the inmates died, he assumed that the guards would die, and then probably himself and the other officials.

Rick, there is a purpose in writing these things down and sharing them. It is true that there are -- and probably always will be -- people who flat out refuse that the Holocaust and other atrocities took place. Preaching to these people is somewhat like talking to a brick wall. BUT. Then you have someone like me who is deeply fascinated by the Waffen-SS and trying to filter truth from fiction in my studies. For the sake of my own fascination, there is nothing I'd love more than to see evidence that they were all innocent and that the war crimes never happened. However, I am a historian, not a sitcom writer, and it is very important to me to understand what really DID happen.

As it is now, most people who look in on this subject on the library shelves etc, i.e. ordinary people as opposed to historians, will find material to document the atrocities, but next to nothing about the reasons and the extent of the guilt. I don't feel it's fair or right to claim that all Nazis were evil, because not only is it wrong as hell, it is also blinding us to the fact that under the wrong circumstances, these things can and have happened again. There is a lot of black-and-white washing going on in this field, for various purposes and agendas.

I am looking for the truth, ugly as it is at times, without political agenda or need for justification. I think that in publishing things as they were experienced and later related to you, you are doing us all a great favor when it comes to finding the truth, ugly or glamourous as it will be in places.

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Hans
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#32

Post by Hans » 21 Nov 2002, 16:36

Just a test


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Transfers

#33

Post by tomalbright » 21 Nov 2002, 16:39

I think where Ric is correct is the example of the Operation Reinhard, where staffs were transferred en masse to almost suicidal anti-partisan operations in the Trieste area. These extermination operations were considered far more "senstive" and secretive than the day-to-day operations of regular concentration camps. It was expected that their secrets could conveniently die with the personnel in a "heroic" death for the fatherland! Normerly officer transfers between the camp system and the W-SS were purely functional, i.e., as a result of wounds, disciplinary actions, incompetence or where administrative skills were needed. The SS was strangely unashamed of the camp system, which paid lip service to normal penal requirements, but was deathly paranoid about the pure murder operations of the Operation Reinhard camps becoming public knowledge, most of whose personnel were drawn from the T4 operational staffs and the Criminal Police, not the camp system.

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#34

Post by Dan » 21 Nov 2002, 16:40

She had seen a few camps,in Holland and from there to Terezin where she met another Dutch girl who was pregnant by a polish prisoner,the Germans did not like this at all and deceided to make an example,they tied her to a pole on the appellplatz and cut out the baby while everybody was forced to watch,this kind of horror was daily routine and Theresienstadt was not even a deathcamp but a durchganglager,a camp ment as gatheringcamp to keep it simple.

A Dutch Girl in Mauthausen,only 15 years old,just arrived and didn't know the daily routine,so she walked the wrong way and this was explained as trying to escape,they crucifixed her with barbwire and put a sign around her neck,"Es gibt einen weg zur freiheit"she took three days to die,and if I am not mistaken as I saw earlier in this thread,the SS guards who are suppoosed only to guard the outer camp limits where there to make sure those 3 days lasted a century.

Denying those things ever happened ore say it wasn't that bad makes me sick,if you had the chance to talk to those people who survived you never question the horror and suffering they went through,and they are the lucky ones,they survived.
And is this just to make a point like your spreading the human soap slander, or do you have credible evidence that this took place?

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#35

Post by Rick-rs » 21 Nov 2002, 16:48

Yes I can Hetman but of all that is written in the answers this is the only thing that is of importance to you?

I'm not at home but it is in a book concerning the Abwehr and Canaris.

Cheers Rick

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#36

Post by Rick-rs » 21 Nov 2002, 17:05

Dan,the story of the woman in Terezin is not only told to me by someone who watched this,but also seen by numerous other prisoners,some of witch survided and gave witness after the war,3 of them are recorded by the Niod a Dutch gouvernment run war research institute, both "incedents" are also in the rapport of the Holocaust in the Netherlands,this is a government released rapport,it concist of 5 books and deals with the execution of the raslaws and deportation of jews in Holland.

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#37

Post by Dan » 21 Nov 2002, 17:22

So I guess we have to add three day crusifictions for jaywalking to large scale underground swiming pool murders for Mauthausen.

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#38

Post by Rick-rs » 21 Nov 2002, 17:29

Birgitte,

I know there are Germans who did not now,ore did now and could do nothing about it,I now there were even SS campguards who made life a little less harsh for the prisoners and I know there were camps were you actualy had a chance to survive the whole ordeal.
My Grandfather was in the waffen-SS and he did not know,and many countless others helped and supported the Third Reich without ever knowing these things,but still they were there.

In my country the deportation of jews in percentages was the most succesfull,even beter than Germany itself,and everybody knows wat apartheid is,but how many people know it is a Dutch word,still my Country is known for it's tollerance against foreigners and this is just as double as the Third Reich in 39-45.
So wat I'm trying to say,I don't hate Germans,as a former military man I even have the highest respect for some of their front Commanders but I get pissed of when you asked a question if there was a nuance to be found in campguards the replies you get is allmost a denial that there where even camps.

If you want to and you have a little patience I can translate a witness rapport for you of former prisoners who stand up for one of their former guards,he made their life bareble and in return they saved him from a hanging, this is an example of what you ment earlier if I am not mistaken.

Cheers Rick

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"...swimming pool murders" at Mauthausen

#39

Post by tomalbright » 21 Nov 2002, 17:32

Drowning Inmates in Water-Tubs

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Between Summer 1940 and the end of 1942, many ill or unfit Poles, Spaniards and Jews were selected to be drowned in tubs, small barrels, etc. Kapo van Loosen, Kapo Klockmann and " Block-Aeltester" Schroegler specialized in this method of killing at KZ Gusen.
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Bathing Inmates to Death

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This cheap method of killing ill or exhausted people was invented by SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Karl Chmielewski, when he was commander of the KZ Gusen I between 1940 and 1943 (in 1943 he became commander to KZ Vought, in the Nederlands).

Chmielewski´s adjutant during 1940 and 1942, SS-Hauptscharfuehrer Heinz Jentzsch, would bring between 40 and 200 inmates into the KZ Gusen showers and expose them to cold water until they died, usually after about 30 minutes. Hence, Jentzsch was nicknamed "Bademeister" (bath-attendent).

Unitl 1943 several thousand KZ Gusen inmates were exterminated by this brutal way.

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#40

Post by Rick-rs » 21 Nov 2002, 17:45

Dan you can't be this stupid or are you?
Have you ever been in Europe at all?And I don't mean the 9 day flyby's but have you any idea wat you are talking about?

You are one of those people who think there was no holocaust aren't you?

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#41

Post by Dan » 21 Nov 2002, 18:01

Rick-rs wrote:Dan you can't be this stupid or are you?
Have you ever been in Europe at all?And I don't mean the 9 day flyby's but have you any idea wat you are talking about?

You are one of those people who think there was no holocaust aren't you?
First of all, what does going to Europe mean?

Second of all, I've lived all over the world, and am able to read any Dutch reports that you'd care to post.

Thirdly, the Holocaust is not one historical event, but is composed of separate actions which happened over thousands of square miles an are separated by almost a decade.

But the bottom line is that you posted the human soap libel, and after Roberto caught you, you backtracked. So, at this point I assume you are either a liar, brainwashed or a sloppy thinker.

But I'll give you a chance to redeme yourself. Post the evidence of the jaywalker who was crusified over a three day period, and we can discuss it.

But in the mean time, I will question anything you say.

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Roberto
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#42

Post by Roberto » 21 Nov 2002, 18:36

Dan wrote:
She had seen a few camps,in Holland and from there to Terezin where she met another Dutch girl who was pregnant by a polish prisoner,the Germans did not like this at all and deceided to make an example,they tied her to a pole on the appellplatz and cut out the baby while everybody was forced to watch,this kind of horror was daily routine and Theresienstadt was not even a deathcamp but a durchganglager,a camp ment as gatheringcamp to keep it simple.

A Dutch Girl in Mauthausen,only 15 years old,just arrived and didn't know the daily routine,so she walked the wrong way and this was explained as trying to escape,they crucifixed her with barbwire and put a sign around her neck,"Es gibt einen weg zur freiheit"she took three days to die,and if I am not mistaken as I saw earlier in this thread,the SS guards who are suppoosed only to guard the outer camp limits where there to make sure those 3 days lasted a century.

Denying those things ever happened ore say it wasn't that bad makes me sick,if you had the chance to talk to those people who survived you never question the horror and suffering they went through,and they are the lucky ones,they survived.
And is this just to make a point like your spreading the human soap slander, or do you have credible evidence that this took place?
Dan, if you have any doubt about the cruelty of concentration camp staff towards their inmates, here are the summaries of some trials by West German courts on account of such cruelties that ended in convictions:
Case Nr.659
Crime Category: NS-Crimes in Detainment Centers, Mass Extermination Crimes in Camps, War Crimes, Final Phase Crimes
Accused:
Schul., Karl 15 Years
Streitwieser, Anton Life sentence + 7 Years
Court:
LG Köln 671030
BGH 691027
Country where the crime was committed: Austria
Crime Location: HS KL Mauthausen, HS KL Gusen, HS KL Wien-Floridsdorf, HS KL Wien-Mödling (Hinterbrühl), along the road of the evacuation march from KL Wien-Mödling to KL Mauthausen
Crime Date: 39-45
Victims: Prisoners of War, Prisoners, Members of the Resistance, Jews
Nationality: German, Yugoslav, Dutch, Austrian, Polish, Soviet, Czech
Office: Haftstättenpersonal KL Mauthausen
Subject of the proceeding: Killing of thousands of prisoners by shooting, mishandling, gassing and by way of lethal injections as well as through selections within the context of Aktion 14f13. Killing of 47 Allied paratroopers in the camp's quarry

Published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Vol. XXVI
Source of quote:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng659.htm
Case Nr.488
Crime Category: NS-Crimes in Detainment Centers
Accused:
Bugdalle, Richard life sentence
Court:
LG München I 600120
Country where the crime was committed: Germany
Crime Location: HS KL Sachsenhausen
Crime Date: 39-41
Victims: Prisoners, Jews, Gypsies
Nationality: German, Chinese, unknown
Office: Haftstättenpersonal KL Sachsenhausen
Subject of the proceeding: Killing of a large number of prisoners by means of 'pole-hanging' ('Pfahlhängen'), suffocating, slaying, trampling, or by hosing them down with ice-cold water

Published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Vol. XVI
Source of quote:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng488.htm
Case Nr.537
Crime Category: NS-Crimes in Deatinment Centers, Mass Extermination Crimes in Camps, War Crimes
Accused:
Wessel, Heinrich Otto 7½ Years
Court:
LG Verden 620606
Country where the crime was committed: Germany
Crime Location: HS KL Sachsenhausen
Crime Date: 4206-4504
Victims: Prisoners, Foreign Laborers, Prisoners of War, Jews
Nationality: British, German, French, Luxemburg, Polish, Soviet, unknown
Office: Haftstättenpersonal KL Sachsenhausen
Subject of the proceeding: Participation in hangings at the roll-call grounds and in shootings in the concentration camp's factory courtyard, of prisoners and foreign laborers, who were transferred to the concentration camp in order to be killed there, on orders of the Reich Security Main Office. Cooperation in the killing of a woman, whose eye was required for a medical experiment. Participation in shootings, among them, of 27 members of the 'leather commando', and of 82 prisoners in the night of January 31 - February 1, 1945, within the contect of the alarm phase 'Scharnhorst', which involved the killing of prisoners identified by name, at the time of the evacuation of the camp. During the course of this evacuation: participation in the killing of at least 2000 ill or exhausted Sachsenhausen prisoners, as well as of at least 150 prisoners from the annex camp Lieberose. Cooperation with experiments on prisoners with poisoned ammunition, potassium cyanide, and so on

Published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Vol. XVIII
Source of quote:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng537.htm
Case Nr.542
Crime Category: NS-Crimes in Detainment Centers
Accused:
Widmann, Albert Gottlob 3½ Years
Court:
LG Düsseldorf 621010
LG Düsseldorf 610516
BGH 620221
Country where the crime was committed: Germany
Crime Location: HS KL Sachsenhausen
Crime Date: 440911
Victims: Prisoners
Nationality: unknown
Office: RSHA Criminal-Technological Institute
Subject of the proceeding: Participation in experiments with poisoned ammunition on 5 prisoners, of whom 3 died under severe pains

Published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Vol. XVIII
Source of quote:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng542.htm
Case Nr.392
Crime Category: NS-Crimes in Detainment Centers, War Crimes
Accused:
Eschner, Hellmut 12 Years
Court:
LG Würzburg 531231
Country where the crime was committed: Poland
Crime Location: HS KL Gross-Rosen
Crime Date: 41-4502
Victims: Prisoners, Prisoners of War, Jews
Nationality: German, Polish, Soviet, unknown
Office: Haftstättenpersonal KL Gross-Rosen
Subject of the proceeding: Participation in the hanging and shooting of Russian POW's. Individual killings and fatal mishandling of prisoners, as well as shooting of prisoners, who had gone in hiding at the time of the camp's evacuation
Published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Vol. XII
Source of quote:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng392.htm

As to what I think of getting excited about the "human soap slander", see my next post.
Last edited by Roberto on 21 Nov 2002, 18:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Roberto
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#43

Post by Roberto » 21 Nov 2002, 18:39

Dan wrote:
She had seen a few camps,in Holland and from there to Terezin where she met another Dutch girl who was pregnant by a polish prisoner,the Germans did not like this at all and deceided to make an example,they tied her to a pole on the appellplatz and cut out the baby while everybody was forced to watch,this kind of horror was daily routine and Theresienstadt was not even a deathcamp but a durchganglager,a camp ment as gatheringcamp to keep it simple.

A Dutch Girl in Mauthausen,only 15 years old,just arrived and didn't know the daily routine,so she walked the wrong way and this was explained as trying to escape,they crucifixed her with barbwire and put a sign around her neck,"Es gibt einen weg zur freiheit"she took three days to die,and if I am not mistaken as I saw earlier in this thread,the SS guards who are suppoosed only to guard the outer camp limits where there to make sure those 3 days lasted a century.

Denying those things ever happened ore say it wasn't that bad makes me sick,if you had the chance to talk to those people who survived you never question the horror and suffering they went through,and they are the lucky ones,they survived.
And is this just to make a point like your spreading the human soap slander, or do you have credible evidence that this took place?
With all due respect, Dan, I can't help :lol: when I see someone get excited about the "human soap slander".

How can the unconfirmed rumors that dead bodies were turned into soap on a large scale be considered slanderous in the face of the evidence that millions of people were murdered?

And slanderous to whom?

To the regime that murdered those millions of innocent people?

Boy, that regime has deserved more than slander, AFAIC.

It has deserved to be spat upon as long as mankind exists.

Cheers,

Roberto

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#44

Post by Rick-rs » 21 Nov 2002, 18:39

Well if you can read Dutch and the Niod isn't good enough for you,why should I bother?
And if the Niod is not relaliable in your eyes than who is,and why do I allways meet a lot Americans over there when I visite the archives?

But the book is called "Ondergang"subtitle- De vervolging en verdelging van het Nederlandse Jodendom-written by Dr.J.Presser,Proffesor at the University of Amsterdam,it consists of 5 volumes and you need vol.4 for testimonies

And what is it you want to discuss anyway,that instead 3 days it took two and a half days,ore do you want to know what kind of weather it was?

And the soap remark was a figure of speech as anybody understands, Roberto said it himself,it dasn't matter,they where killed in the end.
Maybe I should have said 3 pair of socks instead,excuse me if I have offended you.

And about questioning me,well who is it you have talked to?
How many times you been in Dachau,Terezin,Auschwitz etc.
I've been growing up between the victims of both sides and not a week goes by that I actually speak someone who was involved in the war,one way ore the other,how about you?

Redeme myself? to you?oh please.............

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Roberto
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#45

Post by Roberto » 21 Nov 2002, 19:07

Dan wrote: But the bottom line is that you posted the human soap libel, and after Roberto caught you, you backtracked.
Come on, Dan, I didn't "catch" anyone. Rick seems to be one of those misinformed people who believe in the human soap myth, so I pointed out to him that it's a myth, nothing more.

Even if factual, human soap manufacture would be an irrelevant minor detail within the context of mass murder committed on an enormous scale, which is why I will never understand why some people refer to it to point out the horror of the concentration camps and others protest against the "human soap slander", as if it were a big deal.

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