The Camps from the SS perspective

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Rick-rs
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#46

Post by Rick-rs » 21 Nov 2002, 20:52

I am truely sorry for the soap remark,it was a figure of speech and I don't care if it's true ore false,I never saw evidence that it could be true so it probably isn't,as I said earlier I should have said socks ore something like that.

But it keeps us away from the real issue and I think this is the main goal, no evidence given will ever convince some people of the horror commited by some,when I recall a witness statement about a 15 year old girl that is tied up with barbwire and left to die than some of us feel the need to call this the Jaywalking crusifix girl,I am very sorry and it is probably my own mistake but I can not talk with this people,I am sorry but I can't.

The last time I was in Auschwitz I saw the stack of shoes and it really got to me,now I read in this forum when someone suggest to go to Auschwitz he got answered"to do what,see a pile of shoes?that prooves nothing" and he's right,it prooves nothing at all,but last may when whe remind our liberation I helped a local radiostation and talked with a survivor,and as usual it was very impressive,I can't share wat he told,because someone will ask me again to verify this story and I don't even want to anymore.

But looking at this man who lost his parents,brothers,sisters and grandparents and his home only because he was jewish,than I can't be objective ,I hate the people who did this to him and I hate the people who doubt him,I know it's not rational and I know it's not mature wat ever the hell that means and I know that people who question the holocaust have to be convinced by facts so it won't happen in the future and so on and so on.
But not by me,I can't,I just can't,this kind of ottrocities are reduced to a pile of shoes and a jaywalking crusifix girl and it makes me sick

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Scott Smith
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But in a larger sense...

#47

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Nov 2002, 21:19

Rick-rs wrote:Please come on people,don't get dragged in in this discussion,everybody knows there where modelcamps for the Red Cross etc.

The biggest nightmare of the 20th century
I don't think it was "the biggest nightmare of the 20th Century" unless the Jews are somehow better than everyone else and their suffering is therefore unique. "Holocausts of Communism" are greater by any measure, and somewhere around 60 million were exterminated in the conflict called WWII, considerably more than 5-6 million. We don't even have a definition of "Holocausts of Capitalism."
and you try to tone it down a little by saying the inmates had it better than now in a average prison?
Rick, I didn't say that and I don't agree with it. I have said that I think the wartime camps often were hellholes.

Furthermore, I don't support wartime detentions or wartime forced-labor, but I understand the desperate and ruthless mentality of why this would be done. In addition, I have stated many times that denying German citizenship to the Jews in 1935 already went way too far.

And I have criticized my own government and wartime Zionist leaders for not easing immigration restrictions to give the Jews refuge in America before Pearl Harbor and for exploiting European anti-Semitism, respectively. My strongest criticism goes to the British and Anglophile liberals or any others who sought to involve the USA in WWII.
Scott,to see a pile of shoes?? Are you crazy?Have you ever seen this pile? I did and it's sickening, I have spoken many survivors and you friend haven't got a clue, I wonder do you have a brain at all? If your family was dragged down across Europe in a cattlecar, taken everything away that they owned, including their hair and then turned them into 3 bars of soap,you still feel the same way?
Hair was shorn for delousing. Whether the Germans found any way to use it I don't know. But nobody was turned into soap--we have been through this before many times on the forum.

If detentions, expulsions, death, disease and murder had happened to my family then I would be VERY angry indeed. But this does not mean that historians should not look at terrible events rationally and with dispassioned analysis. The fact is that "piles of shoes" does not prove anything at all, let alone murder.
:roll:

Here is an article about that point, although I am not endorsing all of the author's views:

CLICK! Forked Tongues.


A Pile of Shoes at Auschwitz...

Image


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Roberto
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Re: But in a larger sense...

#48

Post by Roberto » 21 Nov 2002, 21:48

Scott Smith wrote:
Rick-rs wrote:Please come on people,don't get dragged in in this discussion,everybody knows there where modelcamps for the Red Cross etc.

The biggest nightmare of the 20th century
I don't think it was "the biggest nightmare of the 20th Century" unless the Jews are somehow better than everyone else and their suffering is therefore unique. "Holocausts of Communism" are greater by any measure, and somewhere around 60 million were exterminated in the conflict called WWII, considerably more than 5-6 million. We don't even have a definition of "Holocausts of Capitalism."
I see that military actions and the slaughter of unarmed non-combatants outside the scope of military actions are still one and the same thing for Mr. Smith.
Scott Smith wrote:
and you try to tone it down a little by saying the inmates had it better than now in a average prison?
Rick, I didn't say that and I don't agree with it. I have said that I think the wartime camps often were hellholes.
"Often" is good.
Scott Smith wrote:Furthermore, I don't support wartime detentions or wartime forced-labor,
I love these sweet terms for mass murder.
Scott Smith wrote:but I understand the desperate and ruthless mentality of why this would be done.
It takes one to know one, as they say.
Scott Smith wrote:In addition, I have stated many times that denying German citizenship to the Jews in 1935 already went way too far.
What's that, "too far"? Morally wrong or even criminal, or just inconvenient?
Scott Smith wrote:
Scott,to see a pile of shoes?? Are you crazy?Have you ever seen this pile? I did and it's sickening, I have spoken many survivors and you friend haven't got a clue, I wonder do you have a brain at all? If your family was dragged down across Europe in a cattlecar, taken everything away that they owned, including their hair and then turned them into 3 bars of soap,you still feel the same way?
Hair was shorn for delousing.
Also after "delousing", especially women's hair. :aliengray
Scott Smith wrote:Whether the Germans found any way to use it I don't know. But nobody was turned into soap--we have been through this before many times on the forum.
Yeah, that's the one mistake I found in Rick's post. I pointed it out to him.
Scott Smith wrote:If detentions, expulsions, death, disease and murder had happened to my family then I would be VERY angry indeed. But this does not mean that historians should not look at terrible events rationally and with dispassioned analysis. The fact is that "piles of shoes" does not prove anything at all, let alone murder.
Who said that the spoils of the victims alone prove anything?

Apart from raising interesting questions that true believers don't know how to answer - like what it is that happened to the owners of such spoils - they are however elements that, together with other physical and/or documentary and/or eyewitness evidence, add up to a very clear picture of events.
Scott Smith wrote:Here is an article about that point, although I am not endorsing all of the author's views:

CLICK! Forked Tongues.


A Pile of Shoes at Auschwitz...

Image
The fact that Smith reads such "Revisionist" crap at all - for crap it is, already for the reason that the author cannot explain what became of the owners of those shoes - and endorses some or most of it says enough about what goes on inside his mind.

Anything worth reading that you can show us, Mr. Smith ?

Anything from outside the "Revisionist" bullshit box ?

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#49

Post by Rick-rs » 21 Nov 2002, 22:16

Scott,

If you had bothered to read my last post instead of only wat you want to read you allready had most questions answered.

For the FOURTH time,the soap remark was figure of speech I should have said socks,and shaving heads was for delousing,so that makes it allright, it is in no way degrating,not humiliating even if you know you will kill those people in half an hour,you still shave their heads,so maybe just maybe this hair had a function.

The pile of shoes prooves nothing,as I allready stated in a earlier post,but if i'm impressed ore moved by it is my concern and mine alone,it's not for you to say how I see this ore weither I believe it ore not.

And the second world war took a lot of lives,you're absolutly right there but can you name me one other ras for who they build a whole industry around with only one goal,the extermination of a ras,for which other ras they built lagers,gaschambers,ovens etc.?

And I know very well of the suffering of the Russian people in the days of Stalin but who is denying that?

And to top it off you give me the URL of a holocaust denial site,nicely packed,very slick and also very convincing and that is excactly what makes me puke,write a article with a lot of "ism" words in them,even make cynical remarks to the upper echolon's of the Nazi party and allways someone falls for this crap,listen Scott,you are obviously a decent guy with a education and you live in a beautifull state,I was in Scottsdale a few years ago,but the point is you believe ore you don't,you want to do research?start with the countless testimonies given by the people who survived.

I know I got involved in this discussion,but as I told earlier,I can't discuss about 5.8 ore 6.3 million,I should have known better,but I just can't see it with objective eyes,you obviously can and good for you,I can't and as I told in a earlier post,I won't tribute to this discussion anymore.

Further more I like the point out to you that it's not a Jewish thing,I had the same feeling when I saw the remains of the US Marine-barracks in Beyrut and 9/11 also was horrable,so is everything done with rassupremacy in mind.

All the best,Rick

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#50

Post by Dan » 21 Nov 2002, 22:24

And the second world war took a lot of lives,you're absolutly right there but can you name me one other ras for who they build a whole industry around with only one goal,the extermination of a ras,for which other ras they built lagers,gaschambers,ovens etc.?
I thought that Hoess said the first people gassed as Auschwitz were 200 Russians?

And I wonder if the author of this sentence thinks Gypsis were treated beter than Jews?

Perhaps he is one of those people who are under the impression that the Jews are special for some reason? He seems to take the suffering of the Jews religiously, perhaps to attone for his sins? I wonder if he thinks the suffering of the Jews under the nazis has no counterpoint in history?

Interesting fellow indeed.

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Scott Smith
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Cruci-Fiction?

#51

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Nov 2002, 22:33

Rick, you are right in that I didn't see your subsequent response until after I posted my reply.

Still, too many people use ill-informed examples such as this (Human Soap, shoes labelled as coming from people gassed, etc.) which they hear and see from the mass-media. Intentional or otherwise, it is nothing more than libel directed against Nazis, Germans, and Gentiles.

As far as your crucifixion story, I don't know if it is true or false. But the difference is that in historical events if the story is weird or "miraculous" we assume that it is just a story unless we have some pretty hard and conclusive evidence.

With the Holocaust, however, we assume the opposite, that the story is true unless somebody can prove it false, which might even be illegal in some countries. I think that is the wrong approach.

A lady here in Scottsdale claimed that she was tossed into a gaschamber but survived by "climbing out of the window." Curious indeed. Nobody would challenge someone who obviously suffered during the war and was discriminated against, but that doesn't make those nightmares the truth, either.

Best Regards,
Scott
Last edited by Scott Smith on 21 Nov 2002, 22:41, edited 1 time in total.

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witness
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#52

Post by witness » 21 Nov 2002, 22:37

Tremendous number of Russians died at Nazis hands .And the Jews were not alone to suffer.I agree with you on this Dan.
However being not religious I don't understand your remark about the "counterpoint"'. Do you mean crucifixtion here ?

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#53

Post by Dan » 21 Nov 2002, 22:42

Witness, it means that nothing of the same sort has ever happened to anyone else. I would disagree, as you said many Russians (probably many times as Jews) dies horribly during this time frame.

But the new poster seems to think that the sufferings of the Jews was unique, a position that I find strange.

I also find strange his logic. If the soap story was just a figure of speech, was the pregnant lady cut open also a figure of speech? The man's logic is strange to me.

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Roberto
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#54

Post by Roberto » 21 Nov 2002, 22:51

Dan wrote:
And the second world war took a lot of lives,you're absolutly right there but can you name me one other ras for who they build a whole industry around with only one goal,the extermination of a ras,for which other ras they built lagers,gaschambers,ovens etc.?
I thought that Hoess said the first people gassed as Auschwitz were 200 Russians?
Höß actually speaks of 900 Russians who were killed in the test gassing. And he continues as follows in his memoirs, after the description of the gassing and the aspect of the victims (Phoenix Press edition, translated from the German text published in 1958 by Constantine FitzGibbon, page 147):
The killing of Russian prisoners-of-war did not cause me much concern at the time. The order had been given, and I had to carry it out. I must even admit that this gassing set my mind at rest, for the mass extermination of the Jews was to start soon and at that time neither Eichmann nor I was certain how these mass killings were to be carried out. It would be by gas, but we did not know which gas or how it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure. I always shuddered at the prospect of carrying out exterminations by shooting, when I thought of the vast numbers concerned, and of the women and children. The shooting of hostages, and the group executions ordered by the Reichsführer SS or by the Reich Security Head Office had been enough for me. I was therefore relieved to think that we were to be spared all these blood baths, and that the victims too would be spared suffering until their last moment came. It was precisely this which had caused me the greatest concern when I had heard Eichmann’s description of Jews being mown down by the Special Squads armed with machine-guns and machine pistols. Many gruesome scenes are said to have taken place, people running away after being shot, the finishing off of the wounded and particularly of the women and children. Many members of the Einsatzkommandos, unable to endure wading through blood any longer, had committed suicide. Some had even gone mad. Most of the members of these Kommandos had to rely on alcohol when carrying out their horrible work. According to Höfle’s description, the men employed at Globocnik’s extermination centers consumed amazing quantities of alcohol.

Dan wrote:I wonder if he thinks the suffering of the Jews under the nazis has no counterpoint in history?
Well, though I dislike myself what Ward Churchill, in his article

Assaults on Truth and Memory: Holocaust Denial in Context

http://www.zmag.org/Zmag/articles/cot96church.htm

calls the "exclusivism" of Jewish scholars, it is indeed hard to find another case where a conquering government tracked down and killed a given minority in every country under its control. The only parallel I see is the Nazi persecution and extermination of the Gypsies throughout Europe.

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#55

Post by Rick-rs » 21 Nov 2002, 22:52

Dan, 200 russians and most of them jewish,and yes the jewish population was special because they where sought after because they where jewish, and same goes for Roma's,Homosexuals,Jehova's witnesses,and all other people who you don't like, and I am not religious,and as far as my sins,Ihave one in mind the day I meet you,for now put on your white pointy hat and go play with your friends from the trailerpark and keep telling to yourself your the masterrace and the chozen one,time will catch up with you.

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witness
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#56

Post by witness » 21 Nov 2002, 23:01

Actually with regard to my last post I just want to say that indeed the Jews seemed to be the primary target and probably were meant to be exterminated as a race.
It doesn't make the Slavic suffering any less horrible.
If to take the absolute numbers they were the most numerous victims.
If to use percentage numbers then the Jews turned out in the worst position.
IMO the Holocaust was a terrible crime against all humankind.

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#57

Post by Hans » 21 Nov 2002, 23:04

Let's get back on topic.

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Roberto
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Re: Cruci-Fiction?

#58

Post by Roberto » 21 Nov 2002, 23:09

Scott Smith wrote:As far as your crucifixion story, I don't know if it is true or false. But the difference is that in historical events if the story is weird or "miraculous" we assume that it is just a story unless we have some pretty hard and conclusive evidence.
Who is "we", Mr. Smith?

Apart from the fact that there's nothing weird or "miraculous" about a cruel killing in an environment of cruelty like that of a concentration camp, are there any examples from historiography that you can show us in support of your contention?
Scott Smith wrote:With the Holocaust, however, we assume the opposite, that the story is true unless somebody can prove it false, which might even be illegal in some countries. I think that is the wrong approach.
The approach that Smith is referring to exists only in the minds of true believers like himself and is one of the key articles of faith of the "Revisionist" religion.

And it's nonsense like all other articles of faith, of course.

Just like any other historical events, Nazi atrocities are deemed by criminal justice and/or historiography to have occurred if and to the extent that they are proven beyond a reasonable doubt by eyewitness and/or documentary and/or physical evidence.
Scott Smith wrote:A lady here in Scottsdale claimed that she was tossed into a gaschamber but survived by "climbing out of the window."
Forgive me for being skeptical about the existence of that lady, Mr. Smith, but I've seen too much bullshit coming from your keyboard.

And even if she exists, that doesn't change the fact that thousands of witnesses have provided coincident and coherent testimonials to the satisfaction of criminal justice authorities and historians, corroborated by perpetrators' depositions, documentary and physical evidence.
Scott Smith wrote:Nobody would challenge someone who obviously suffered during the war and was discriminated against, but that doesn't make those nightmares the truth, either.
So say Smith's gurus.

They obviously know nothing about criminal trials especially in West Germany, where nasty defense attorneys were entitled to cross-examine survivor witnesses as they were entitled to cross-examine everybody else.

And Smith, the "skeptic", piously believes everything his gurus write, of course.

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#59

Post by Rick-rs » 21 Nov 2002, 23:12

Scott,

I agree with you that there are people who take advantage of the fact that they either survided or are family of victims,sad but true,but this dasn't take anything away from the fact that there was a holocaust.

No I go out on a limb here but wat is it what you don't believe?
The thing that puzzles me is that in contrary to Dan who is plainly a neonazi you seem to be intelligent.
So if you start at the beginning,there where the Neurenberg trials, testemonies where given by witnesses how people where gassed,in order of speed there was even a competition between gaschambers who used Zyclon B and the ones who used U-boat engines,to see which was the fastest,now if you don't believe this than this is your right I think,but wat is the use?
The paper traill alone was enough to verdict them,in my country they left enough documentation so you could see where every person ended up and if they where "Sonderbehandelt"

Now,if you think this did not happen,if you think that the the vanishing of 100.000 people in my country didn't acure,where did they left them,and why?

Cheers Rick

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#60

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Nov 2002, 23:12

I don't dispute that as many as 5.1 million Jews lost their lives or were murdered by the Germans during the war. They were rounded-up by wartime governments for arbitrary ascriptive criteria, in this case race or religion, the same as in the Soviet Union except as by class or ethnicity or "bourgeois tendencies," or the USA because they were Japanese (even if you were a U.S. citizen).

Höß states in his memoirs that Gypsies were not automatically killed but that Himmler instead decided to "OFF" some of them who couldn't work because of camp overcrowding; intially they were a minority-ethnic group that was to be conserved somehow or placed on reservations like American Indians as a unique "national treasure."

As far as male Homosexuals (the only ones incarcerated), sodomy was a criminal offense in most countries at the time and still is in some U.S. states. Arizona finally repealed those laws only recently because they were uneforceable and nobody's business besides.

Himmler wanted to exploit the labor of all prisoners, including ordinary criminals, for the duration of the war and suspended any releases, even if one had already done his time.

Jehovah's Witnesses were imprisoned and sometimes martyred for pacifism; they wouldn't work or fight for wartime Germany.

None of this makes discrimination and atrocities "better," but the murder-factory thesis needs to be revised. As far as Genocide, it largely depends on whose ox is being gored. Hamburg and Hiroshima were also holocausts. The victims were "selected" because they were Germans and Japanese.
:)

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