Condom used by Japanese soldiers against Comfort Women

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AAA
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Post by AAA » 25 Nov 2006 16:59

Amazing that this thread could go 8 pages.

Did I miss it somewhere in that mass of foreign language links? Has the photographed condom actually been proved to be of WWII vintage, or is it just assumed to be genuine?

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Post by Kim Sung » 25 Nov 2006 17:05

Yoshimi Yoshiaki said that he got only limited access to documents and he is sure that the Japanese government is still concealing decisive evidences.

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Post by AAA » 25 Nov 2006 17:14

So we have one unused prophylactic, which may be genuine WWII issue or may not, the alleged packaging of which allegedly corresponds in appearance to the description of those allegedly issued for use with comfort women.

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Post by Kim Sung » 25 Nov 2006 17:26

AAA wrote:So we have one unused prophylactic, which may be genuine WWII issue or may not, the alleged packaging of which allegedly corresponds in appearance to the description of those allegedly issued for use with comfort women.

IIRC there are two other Totsugeki Ichiban condoms, one found in Nanjing in 1997 and the other in Okinawa by Korean civic organization in 2001.

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Post by AAA » 25 Nov 2006 17:46

So, of the thousands (millions?) of these condoms, three have survived, since they have been found, none has any chain of custody?

Is there any verified WWII era documentary or photographic evidence documenting such prophylactics?

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Post by Penn44 » 26 Nov 2006 00:50

Kim Sung wrote:The Japanese always insist that Koreans and Chinese have nothing more than just survivors' accounts. Even the current prime minister Abe Shinzo remarked "Comfort women are fabricated by Koreans and Chinese."


Kim Sung wrote:Abe Shinzo always says that Chinese and Koreans have nothing more than survivors' accounts. He denies all Japanese war crimes because their is neither document nor material to prove them.


Kim Sung wrote:
tonyh wrote:Also, I have to agree with Penn44 here. The posting of an issued condom doesn't actually prove anything and you'll find few people here who will say that the Japanese didn't engage in the use of comfort women.

You got me wrong. In the long debates on Japanese war crimes, we couldn't give any decisive evidence. The Japanese always attack Koreans and Chinese, saying that we have no evidence except survivors' account.

tonyh wrote:So...what exactly are you trying to achieve with this thread?
Tony


Korea and China have experienced a lot of difficulties in proving Japanese war crimes due to lack of evidences because they left no decisive evidence at all. They don't give credibility to survivors' accounts because they believe survivors are lying or exaggerating their experiences. In regard to the Japanese war crimes, this is the second time we have found an evidence of Japanese war crimes. This is a very important discovery. For 61 years, we've found just two evidences of Japanese war crimes.


Then finally we have a change of position:

Kim Sung wrote:I know there are some documents on comfort women. Even some Japanese officers made verbal accounts admitting their involvement in operating comfort women brothels. But Japanese politicians and courts don't consider these documents and verbal accounts as decisive evidence that can prove the Japanese government's invlovement in recuiting comfort women and operating comfort women brothels. Even an international report on comfort women based on Yoshimi Yoshiaki's research admit that there are no decisive evidence on Japanese government's involvement.
...
Some US documents (interrogation reports) and US military photos of these "captured" comfort women are well-known and already covered by the media several thousand times....


Kim Sung:

In several postings you repeatedly state that there was NO evidence other than survivor’s accounts, hence the importance of this condom, and when confronted, you’re now acknowledging the existence of other evidence from such sources as Professor Yoshiaki as well as others. You deny the existence of these pieces of evidence, and put all your hopes in a single condom. What gives? Perhaps this is another one of the Asian symbolic language versus English language translation problems like the different interpretations of the condom logo previously offered.

Kim Sung wrote:I think you need more research instead of superficial knowledges. With your logic, you will not persuade Japanese judges in Japanese courts.


Kim Sung:
I am a “historian,” not a lawyer, and I am considering the evidence at hand in the “court” of history not a court of law, and the body of available historical evidence in my court of history strongly points to these facts -
1) The Japanese military used comfort women in WWII,
2) The Japanese government and courts are denying this evidence of this fact due to political reasons,

Judges do not determine historical “truth”; judges make judicial decisions, and judicial decisions and historical truth are two separate entities. The majority of open-minded persons have established what historical truth in regards to this matter when they reasonably concluded that the available evidence shows that the Japanese used comfort women in WWII.

You want the Japanese government and courts to admit that the Japanese military in WWII operated comfort women stations, but your unfortunate dilemma is that they won’t admit it. From a judicial perspective, the problem is not the quality of the evidence; the problem is the judges who based their judicial decisions on political factors. The decision of the Japanese government and courts to discount the available evidence flies in the face of both reason and justice. Their decision is a political decision. In the face of this solid wall of governmental and judicial resistance, do you really believe your one condom is going to change their minds? I strongly doubt it. Despite my supposed “superficial knowledges” at least I have the common sense to realize that the Japanese judges will again deny that your condom is adequate evidence, and then throw you and your condom out of court.

And even if you and your condom somehow surpass this monumental wall of political and judicial resistance, the individual claimants will still have the enormous problem of proving their individual cases due to the lack of evidence.

From a judicial perspective is this justice, no it is not. Is it political reality at the moment, yes it is. If the Korean and Chinese governments want success, they must “fight fire with fire.” They must respond to the Japanese government’s political decision with political acts of their own. These governments must apply political pressure, and if necessary, economic sanctions. The German government would not have agreed to the reparations demands of slave laborers unless various governments put adequate political pressure on the German government. However, I doubt the Korean and Chinese governments are willing to go this far.

Kim Sung wrote:The focal point in the comfort women issue is whether the Japanese government was directly involved in recuiting comfort women and operating comfort women brothels. The Japanese politicians insist that the government was not involved in recuiting comfort women and operating comfort women brothels and it was civilians who really operated them. It means that comfort women were voluntary employees.


And how does your condom prove the above? Even if the logo on the condom said clearly, "Japanese soldier rape this woman," it still does not prove any of the above which are critical elements of the case.

The bottom-line of this nine-page thread is that you put too much stock in a condom in finally proving the comfort women case when it does not prove the case at all.

You have made a number of claims, some quite fantastic, that you cannot prove or substantiate -
- You claimed that this condom was exclusively in comfort stations, a claim you that can’t prove,
- You also claimed that the condom logo directed Japanese soldiers to rape these comfort women, a claim that is also contentious,
- You also claimed that the condition of the pictured condom proves in your mind that the condom was from this period, a claim that you cannot prove,
- You claim that “The logos on condoms are a more persuasive evidence than collective accounts for the Japanese,” a claim you can’t substantiate especially since this matter hasn’t even gone to court,
- You claim that Korean girls were more virgin that Japanese girls, a claim you cannot prove,
- You claim that Korean girls were more “hygienic” that Japanese girls, a claim you cannot prove,
- You state that “Korean girls became targets for the Japanese because they were brought up in a very conservative society compared to Japan and they were in most cases virgins,” a claim you cannot substantiate,
- You state, “The Japanese intended to destroy chastity of Confucian women, especially Korean women,” a claim you cannot substantiate,
- Your write, “Dotsugeki Ichiban symbolizes gang rape,” a claim that you cannot substantiate,
- You claim, “And today's Korea still has very strict moral rules which are very rare in other Asian and western countries. Prostitution is completely banned in Korea. Korean girls are quite different from liberal western girls. Except Islamic countries and a few South Asian countries, Korea is the most conservative country on sex in the world,” for those who know Korea, and are not distorted nationalists, they know this to be false.
- Your wrote, “Yoshimi Yoshiaki said that he got only limited access to documents and he is sure that the Japanese government is still concealing decisive evidences;” Yoshiaki’s claim is just that, a claim, and is unproven.

All in all, you have made NUMEROUS exaggerated, distorted, unsubstaniated or unproven claims or even some anti-Japanese statements which undermines your argument. Although the cause of the Japanese comfort women is a worthy cause, your spurious claims have undermined their case.

Penn44

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Post by Penn44 » 26 Nov 2006 00:59

ToKu wrote: I also think that if the phrase was transleted that drastically earlier we would have avoided lots of confusion in this tread.


Yes, you are right, but Kim Sung delayed at first claiming:

Kim Sung wrote:
yabint wrote:Is the Japanese phrase on the packet offensive or degrading in some manner that is not apparent to a non-Japanese speaker?

Yes, the meaning of that phrase is too vulgar to interpret.


Yet, when we did receive the interpretation of this much touted phrase we were not in fact overwhelmed by its utter vulgarity.

There appears to have been some degree of exaggeration of descriptions of this phrase.

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Post by Penn44 » 26 Nov 2006 01:21

AAA wrote: Has the photographed condom actually been proved to be of WWII vintage, or is it just assumed to be genuine?


Kim Sung claims:

Kim Sung wrote: From the state of the preservation, the condom in the initial post is obviously the one used by the Japanese.


To obtain his credentials in dating condoms, you must ask him.

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Post by Kim Sung » 26 Nov 2006 03:38

Are you sure you are a historian? I don't believe it, considering from your posts.

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Post by Kim Sung » 26 Nov 2006 03:41

If you are really a historian, obviously you are an amateur.

You seem to be the type of person who likes to stir things up a bit to create a little conflict. The best way to handle anyone like you, either on the forum or in person, is to ignore the rude remarks you make.

I can prove that your counter claims are all false. But, I won't because I know your tactic.

One thing I make sure is that I meant there are no decisive evidence, not meaning there is no evidence at all.

And I advise you to fix your provocative writing style if you want to be a respected historian.

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Post by AAA » 26 Nov 2006 05:32

I can prove that your counter claims are all false. But, I won't because....


Oh please. Penn is entirely right, inconsistent and exaggerated claims and a prophylactic of unknown provenance don't prove anything.

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Post by Peter H » 26 Nov 2006 05:44

Penn,Sung

Its obvious you two have had a falling out.This is not only apparent here but in other sections of the forum.I'd advise both of you to cut the bickering,limit the insults,and concentrate on the research aspects of the forum.Otherwise stay away from each other until things calm down.

Peter

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Post by Kim Sung » 26 Nov 2006 06:18

AAA wrote:
I can prove that your counter claims are all false. But, I won't because....


Oh please. Penn is entirely right, inconsistent and exaggerated claims and a prophylactic of unknown provenance don't prove anything.


I didn't exaggerate anything. I wrote just as it is. I have innumerable sources that can prove my claims. But almost all these sources are written in Korean so it'll take a lot time to translate them.

And even though I prove my claims by spending much time, Penn 44 will produce counter claims again and again. He seems to be the type of person that can't be persuaded by logic. In order to avoid falling into his trap and to save my prescious time and to prevent this thread from being filled with off-topic posts, I'd like to refrain from investing more time on this debate.

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Post by David Thompson » 26 Nov 2006 07:19

I think this thread has outlived its usefulness to our readers, so it's locked.

Penn44 and Kim Sung -- If you want to continue your feud, do it somewhere else rather than at AHF. The forum exists for our readers, not for petty controversies among posters. Further flame-bait posts from either of you will be deleted on sight.

AAA -- It's hard to put out a fire when someone else is throwing dry brush on it. Please be more thoughtful in future posts here.

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