Warcrimes in Estonia 1940-49

[Toivo]

Hey all,
Due some recent events (which include visit of some holocaust-denial Jürgen Graf to Estonia and trials over people who were responsible for repressions by Soviet Union against Estonians as nationality) I rise this thread for some information to those who don't know subject well and for opinions of people here.

Firstly Chronology to give picture of recent history of Baltic States.
Chronology (few events what probably leaded to repressions).
1920 peace pact with Soviet Union, Latvia and Estonia as coalition win Independence war against Soviet Union.
1924 try for coup d'etat with help from SO and with few local communists, failure.
1934 "very soft" autocracy by Konstatin Päts to prevent veterans of Independence War to take control over Estonia.
1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Destiny of Baltic states decided (?), they should go under Soviet Union by any means.
1940 Russia tries to take Finland with war, having multiple speculative demands. SO declares ultimatum to Baltic States ("bases for our defense which do good for both of us or WAR"). Baltic States would be too weak even if in coalition and they choose not to fight. Estonia and two other Baltic States annexed.
...

With Red Army marching in Estonia warcrimes begun. I'll give just short preview, because with all facts and documents this post would me mile-long. So I'll just list warcrimes and repressions of both Soviet Union and Nazi Germany in Estonia.
*Taking civilian appartments with force for soviets officers who came to bases.
*General repressions like arrests, torturing in prisons, expropriate of property and real estate of innocent (in general terms) civilians, officers, politicans and veterans of Independence War. ---Note that if winning war for independence is crime, fine. But what had their families and even totally unrelated people to do with anything?
*Massmurder of large number of Estonian officers ( ć 40) in Värska.
*Before start of German-SO war 1941, many men and woman went to resistance ("forest brothers", basiclly partisans). Families of those people and again totally random estonians were repressed and deported to Siberia 14 juny (14 thousand men, womand and children).
*Several mass-murders, in Kuressaare and Tartu (ć 200 civilians).
*"Punishment-battalions" for scorched-earth tactics murdered large number of civilians and resistance.
*After arrival of German troops, large number of communists, POWs and jews were killed.
*Warcrimes against jews and communist-element by Nazi-Germany until 1944, one KZ at Klooga (several thousands murdered). Small resistance by estonians as most men were fighting at East Front for their repressed/killed families.
*By re-occupaing of Estonia, horrors started again. About 200 thousand people flee to western countries to survive (it's about 15% of whole nation!).Arrests, tortures and massmurders start again. Heavy battles with resistance.
*1949 massrepressions against civilians, thousands and thousands deported to Siberia.


Thats very short list to summarize.
All thoughts and questions waited, I try to answer as much as possible.
Point of this thread is to show what warcrimes war commited as even today
some individuals are denying repressions against jews and nature of Soviet Union politics.


Regards
Erik Holm

[Toivo]

P.S. apologizes if my english ain't best

[Reigo]

Hi,

what did Graf do here? I haven't followed the events lately... and a quick search on the internet didn't give also any information...

Rgds,

[Scott Smith]

Point of this thread is to show what warcrimes war commited as even today some individuals are denying repressions against jews and nature of Soviet Union politics.

Are you claiming that Graf is denying repressions against Jews in Estonia? Can you be more specific...

[Roberto]

Point of this thread is to show what warcrimes war commited as even today some individuals are denying repressions against jews and nature of Soviet Union politics.

Are you claiming that Graf is denying repressions against Jews in Estonia? Can you be more specific...

What Graf are you talking about?

The one who maintains that 85 % of all male porn actors are Jews, perhaps?

[Toivo]

Hi all,
No, swiss revisionist historian Jürgen Graf just denies that 6 million died and says one million died at most. And his ideas publicized as holocaust would be deception.
He will lecture tomorrow, 26.November in Pärnu and lectured today in Tallinn. I'm sure you'll find exact place if you want to hear what he has to say, there was some article about it in news.
Reason why I brought up this subject was not because Graf has anything to do with estonian jews but that lately also national-bolsheviks have claimed that those responsible for repressions are inocent and trials over them are genocie against russians in Estonia. Just two very close things same time to illustrate.
By the way, at same time Graf comes his book will be given out here...

Regards

[Roberto]

Hi all,
No, swiss revisionist historian Jürgen Graf just denies that 6 million died and says one million died at most. And his ideas publicized as holocaust would be deception.

Hi Erik,

Whatever you do, please don't call that sorry freak

a) a revisionist and

b) a historian.

He is neither of both, just a lying Nazi propagandist.

Revisionism in the proper sense of the word is a historical method which consists in revising acknowledged notions of history on the basis of new evidence or reasonable alternative interpretations of evidence already known.

Which is not what Graf and his ilk do; they distort, misrepresent, dismiss or ignore existing evidence so as to match a picture of historical events that, while at odds with the facts, corresponds to what they would like to believe in. Revisionists is the the last thing these "Revisionists" are.

He will lecture tomorrow, 26.November in Pärnu and lectured today in Tallinn. I'm sure you'll find exact place if you want to hear what he has to say, there was some article about it in news.

Some show that must be. Neo-nazis and skinheads all over the place, I presume.

Reason why I brought up this subject was not because Graf has anything to do with estonian jews but that lately also national-bolsheviks have claimed that those responsible for repressions are inocent and trials over them are genocie against russians in Estonia. Just two very close things same time to illustrate.

That's an interesting point indeed. Many people do not know that Uncle Joe Stalin also has his "Revisionists" who try to make him into the loving father of his nation.

Cheers,

Roberto

[michael mills]

The brief summary by Erik Holm demonstrates that Soviet crimes in Estonia vastly outweighed those committed by Germany during its occupation of the country from 1941 to 1944.

In the first place, the German forces do not appear to have committed crimes against the ethnic Estonian population, except for those who were Communists, whose numbers I suspect were minimal.

By contrast, the Soviet forces, both in 1940-41, and later after the reoccupation in 1944, seem to have committed large-scale crimes against the Estonian population, both mass-killing and deportation, the later often being eventually fatal.

The German forces did victimise the Jews of Estonia, but their number was minimal, only 5,000 or so before the German invasion, and at least half of them, of not more, were evacuated by the Red Army before the arrival of the Germans.

So we are comparing the deaths of a couple of thousand Jews at German hands with an incomparably higher number of deaths of ethnic Estonians at Soviet hands.

That being so, one wonders why Erik Holm gives equal prominence to the tiny number of Jews who died, and makes such a fuss about the visit of a "Holocaust denier". Perhaps he knows which side his bread is buttered on in an Estonia which is on the point of coming under United States hegemony. And who can blame him for that?

As Roberto says, Stalin also has his revisionists. But their influence is not great compared with that of another sort of apologist, often to be found among German leftists, who portrays the Soviet Union as basically "good", except that it was screwed up by Stalin. That form of apologia ignores the mass crimes of the Soviet Union before Stalin's takeover of power, and also the fact that the system of brutal repression that was taken to its logical conclusion by Stalin was in fact devised and put in place by his predecessors.

The reasons for that apologia are not hard to find; Stalin's predecessors, and preponderant part of those who carried out repressions on their behalf, were, shall we say, not of Russian Orthodox origin.

[Toivo]

Greetings,
Firstly, I have always thought "revisionist" goes for historian who wants to deny something.
Secondly, Mills, it's impossible to compare large scale sovier crimes with germans crimes in Estonia but if I would live those out, someone would jump out from brush and accuse me for being on-way.
About that Graf and fuss... I only mentioned him in main post, but gave extra information as Scott and Reigo asked for it. And I'm not trying to cringe and crawl before someone, just being politically correct
Maybe I'm slow thinker but you can always rephrase it.

Regards

[Roberto]

That being so, one wonders why Erik Holm gives equal prominence to the tiny number of Jews who died, and makes such a fuss about the visit of a "Holocaust denier". Perhaps he knows which side his bread is buttered on in an Estonia which is on the point of coming under United States hegemony.

Seeing ghosts everywhere, ain't that so, Mr. Mills?

As Roberto says, Stalin also has his revisionists.

I wonder if those fun-lovers also portray themselves as "skeptics" or "dissident researchers".

But their influence is not great compared with that of another sort of apologist, often to be found among German leftists, who portrays the Soviet Union as basically "good", except that it was screwed up by Stalin. That form of apologia ignores the mass crimes of the Soviet Union before Stalin's takeover of power, and also the fact that the system of brutal repression that was taken to its logical conclusion by Stalin was in fact devised and put in place by his predecessors.

Who are those "Lenin was good but Stalin was bad" German "leftists", Mr. Mills?

Any names?

The reasons for that apologia are not hard to find; Stalin's predecessors, and preponderant part of those who carried out repressions on their behalf, were, shall we say, not of Russian Orthodox origin.

Everybody here knows what your primordial concern is, so why don't you spell it out?

[Reigo]

In the first place, the German forces do not appear to have committed crimes against the ethnic Estonian population, except for those who were Communists, whose numbers I suspect were minimal.

There were also some who were too pro-British or too anti-German, who were killed. Besides in autumn 1944 some amount (IIRC few tens) of Estonian soldiers were executed by the Germans (it was when the Estonian Republic was reannounced in September 1944 and some Germans were pissed off).

The German forces did victimise the Jews of Estonia, but their number was minimal, only 5,000 or so before the German invasion, and at least half of them, of not more, were evacuated by the Red Army before the arrival of the Germans

The most widespread claim is that about 1 000 Jews remained here in 1941.

[Dan]

What does the average older Estonian think of Germans and Russians today?

[Reigo]

What does the average older Estonian think of Germans and Russians today?

I don't know really... One can guess it largely depends on which side he/she was in his/her mind in WW II. There is IMO quite illustrative saying: "Germans were less worse amongst the two bads."

[Kunnar Kesküla]

I just want to say that in mass murder in Kuressaare more than half of NKVD-men were jews. They killed by terrible way so many civilians including women. The bodys were cutted by knife, their legs was boiled,
womens breasts were cutted.
I'm not a nazi at all and every murder is terrible, but i'm not understand why jews thinking that they are only ones who are stricken by WWII.
If i read a book about repressions in Estonia durin 1941-1944(German age) then there was list about victims and so manyof jews in this list were in so called "destruction bataillons". That was one reason why they were killed.

[witness]

Hi Kunnar Kesküla
Not that I doubt your information about the event in Kuressaare
( I' ve never read about it ) but could you give some more details such as
when this massacre took place , approximate number of victims, who were they etc.What did you refer to when wrote "legs boiled '' ?
Regards.