Marzabotto trial

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Lupo Solitario
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Marzabotto trial

Post by Lupo Solitario » 13 Jan 2007 18:48

The military court of La Spezia has passed today ten life sentences against ten former SS-members, NCOs and privates of 16th SS recon battalion, for thier role in Marzabotto slaughter (about 800 deads, september 1944).

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Post by David Thompson » 13 Jan 2007 22:25

Here is a link to the Marzabotto page of the resistenzaitaliano.it website (Google machine translation into English)
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... _qdr%3Dall

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Carnaro
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Post by Carnaro » 14 Jan 2007 14:35

Ancora una volta la Magistratura italiana ha fatto Giustizia :lol:
Once again the Italian Magistracy has made Justice :lol:

Max

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Post by Andreas » 18 Jan 2007 08:05

A couple of posts were removed by the moderator.

All the best

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Post by michael mills » 18 Jan 2007 23:27

Here again, for the information of Forum members, is some information on the background to the Marzabotto massacre, as presented in press reports here on the Italian trial.

It appears that Marzabotto, situated in the rear of the German forces defending the Gothic Line, was a stronghold of a Communist partisan unit that was harassing the German supply lines. The villagers, who were under strong Communist influence, provided support to and a hiding-place for the partisans. That is the reason why the German commanders decided to attack and destroy the village; by eliminating the population supporting the partisans, they hoped to neutralise the partisan threat.

The problem faced by the German commanders was similar to that faced by the British in Malaya during the Emergency in the late 1940s and early 1950s; a widespread insurgency in which the insurgents hid among and received support from the ethnic Chinese population in scattered villages. The British solved the problem by rounding up the village population, concentrating them in a number of closely guarded large settlements, and destroying the villages and the supplies in them. As a result, the insurgency gradually withered away for lack of support.

The Germans in Marzabotto in 1944 acted more ruthlessly than the British in Malaya a few years later, in that instead of rounding up the villagers and interning them, they simply massacred them. In so doing, they overstepped the bounds of legality and committed a war-crime. Nevertheless, the reason for their action against Marzabotto was the same as the reason for British action against villagers in Malaya.

The massacre at Marzabotto was not simply an act of gratuitous violence, and the villagers were not entirely innocent (although some were probably more guilty than others). If the villagers had not given enthusiastic support to the Communist partisans, and had simply waited for the inevitable German withdrawal in the face of the Allied advance, they would not have been harmed.

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Post by Andreas » 19 Jan 2007 19:04

A post by Sasso was split into a new thread in the appropriate forum:

viewtopic.php?t=114601

All the best

Andreas

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gattotigre
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marzabotto trial

Post by gattotigre » 31 Jan 2007 19:08

italian justice always in delay... cry:

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Re: Marzabotto trial

Post by SloveneLiberal » 24 Aug 2019 21:06

Interesting i am just reading about Marzabotto massacre in the book written by Roberto Bataglia. He is writing that SS at that time commited similair massacres also in other villages around. Like in Villa, Vinca, Bergioli etc. About Marzabotto he says that more than 130 children were killed and between hunders of civilians there were also five priests killed.

He points out also how fascist newspapers were trying to deny that massacres happened.

Roberto Battaglia, Odpornisko gibanje v Italiji, published in Slovenian in 1971. Pages 397-398.

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Re: Marzabotto trial

Post by Berto » 25 Aug 2019 14:56

Not just fascist newspapers. Michael Mills was also promptly at work in spreading disinformation and trying to whitewash yet another unjustifiable Nazi war crime. Communist unit stronghold, lol! I guess the five murdered priests were ardent supporters of Stalin, no doubt. And statements like
The massacre at Marzabotto was not simply an act of gratuitous violence, and the villagers were not entirely innocent (although some were probably more guilty than others).
are simply embarrassing. I wonder what kind of support the 250 (two hundred and fifty) children below age sixteen that the SS murdered were providing to the partisans! In Marzabotto the SS did what they had done in dozens of other Italian villages, and in much larger scale in the Balkans and the Eastern Front; they randomly massacred hundreds of innocents because they were unable to catch the actual partisans. As the cowards and criminals that they were.

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Re: Marzabotto trial

Post by michael mills » 28 Aug 2019 11:48

I see that I wrote this back in 2007:
The Germans in Marzabotto in 1944 acted more ruthlessly than the British in Malaya a few years later, in that instead of rounding up the villagers and interning them, they simply massacred them. In so doing, they overstepped the bounds of legality and committed a war-crime. Nevertheless, the reason for their action against Marzabotto was the same as the reason for British action against villagers in Malaya.
I do not resile from that statement.

This was my conclusion:
If the villagers had not given enthusiastic support to the Communist partisans, and had simply waited for the inevitable German withdrawal in the face of the Allied advance, they would not have been harmed.
I do not resile from that statement either.

It is probable that not all the villagers were giving support to the Communist partisans. However, the fault for the deaths of those that were innocent, eg the children, and possibly also the five priests (although there were priests who allied themselves with the Communists), lies with those villagers who did give support to the Communist partisans.

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Re: Marzabotto trial

Post by Berto » 28 Aug 2019 13:44

Nah, the fault lies with those barbarian beasts who served in the criminal organization known as the SS. As every sane person can agree.

(By the way, you failed to provide any source about the "enthusiastic" support the population gave to the "Communist" partisans, or anything else that you said, for that matter; that's because you made that up).

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Re: Marzabotto trial

Post by SloveneLiberal » 28 Aug 2019 20:40

Well i agree with mr. Berto. Partisan brigades around this area seems to be communist led as i was able to check yet communists in Italy at that time were part of coalition CLNAI which had democratical program and even part of the legal governament of Ivanoe Bonomi in Rome at that time. So if one supported Garibaldine brigades that does not mean he automaticaly supported Stalin or sovietization of Italy. More logical conclusion is that he was supporting policy of resistance encouraged by its pro-allied governament which was not led by communists but they were just part of it. Othervise it could be said also that when members or simpatizers of communist party were giving support to Justice and freedom brigades there were working against communism.

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Re: Marzabotto trial

Post by michael mills » 29 Aug 2019 10:56

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6259987.stm

Between 29 September and 5 October, 1944, retreating Nazi troops carrying out reprisals for the local support given to resistance fighters killed civilians around Marzabotto, a mountainous area south of Bologna.

https://www.italymagazine.com/dual-lang ... rld-war-ii
On 29 September 1944, German troops aided by a group of Fascists, began an encirclement maneuver, climbing to the top of Monte Sole, with the goal to defeat the partisans and punish the local population, accused of helping the ‘rebels’. The operation lasted seven days. After a long and strenuous defense, the surviving partisans retreated to the woods and peaks to escape arrest and break the siege, convinced the Germans would not act cruelly against women, children and the elderly. They were wrong.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 32037.html
The villagers were supporters of the Red Star partisans who were harassing the German line. The Nazi high command ordered the villages to be wiped out in reprisal - and to teach a lesson to other potential allies of their enemies
The bottom line is that the only reason why German troops attacked the population of Marzabotto was because a detachment of Communist partisans operating against German forces had been receiving support from parts of that population. If some of the people of Marzabotto had not been helping the partisans, the German troops would not have attacked that town and would have left it alone. The Germans had no genocidal intentions toward the Italian people, and only attacked those Italians who were fighting against them, including civilians who were either assisting the anti-German forces or suspected of doing so. The German intentions were to suppress armed resistance against them, not to wipe out a population.

Whether or not individual members of the local partisan formations were members of the Communist Party or personally supported Communism is irrelevant. Those partisan formations were organised and led by the Communist Party, so it is correct to call them Communist partisans. The SS was a military formation created by the National Socialist Party of Germany, so it is correct to call it a National Socialist organisation, even though not every member of it was a member of the National Socialist Party.

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Re: Marzabotto trial

Post by SloveneLiberal » 29 Aug 2019 13:59

Michael Mills i agree Germans did not try to exterminate or expell Italians in general or try to make them "Germans" by force. However it seems to me that you do not understand Italian resistance. I wrote before that resistance was led by CLN which was advocating for democratical program so as was the legal Italian governament which was made of different political parties. Communist were part of it but were not leading the governament.

Also Garibaldi brigades established by Italian communist party were at the end under CLN command. And it is not just that members of Gabibaldi brigades were not all communists, they can be and were made up also of members of other political parties. So this can not be compared to SS, which was also marked as criminal organization by Nuremberg court. You can not be in SS and against Hitler and for example for christian democratic or social-democratic Germany. Those parties even did not exist under Nazi regime. So if one was supporter of Italian governament under Bonomi in Rome in 1944 it was not in any way strange if he was supporting Garibaldine brigades specially if other brigades established by other political parties were not around.

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Re: Marzabotto trial

Post by Berto » 29 Aug 2019 17:12

So, the source are a couple of passing remarks by journalists on British newspapers?
If some of the people of Marzabotto had not been helping the partisans, the German troops would not have attacked that town and would have left it alone
No. As long as partisans were active anywhere in the vicinity, they would have razed the village without ascertaining if any of the inhabitants were helping them, as they did in dozens other occasions in Tuscany and Emilia. "They were helping the partisans" was the generic general excuse for the indiscriminate massacre of entire villages.
The Germans had no genocidal intentions toward the Italian people
Never did I claim so.
...including civilians who were either assisting the anti-German forces or suspected of doing so
That's the point. "Suspected of doing so" = anywhere living in the general area.
The German intentions were to suppress armed resistance against them, not to wipe out a population.
Or more accurately, to suppress armed resistance against them, even at the cost of wiping out a population. More precisely, the population of Marzabotto, just like that of Sant'Anna di Stazzema, Cavriglia, Padule di Fucecchio, Civitella Val di Chiana, Vinca, San Leonardo al Frigido... just some examples. Which is a war crime.

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