Estonia. The Bloody trace of nazism.1941-1944

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Post by David Thompson » 22 Apr 2007 21:12

Reigo -- Are you denying that these events in Estonia happened? If so, what is the basis for your denial? In answering, please source your assertions for our readers.

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Post by lebel » 22 Apr 2007 22:30

Let's stay in the topic and as for the ludicrous parallel of Carnaro ,he received the appropriate answers
The problem of moving or destroying a monument is not so important in itself
; What is unheard and symptomatic that 's attitude of estonian leaders towards a past they would better forget or apologize
I'd emphasize the faithful commitment of that country with Nazi Germany , the forgetting or denying of crimes perpetrated and above all that nostalgy of a deathly period !

BTW Was there an anti nazi resistance in Estonia between june 41 and september 44?

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Post by David Thompson » 23 Apr 2007 01:47

lebel -- We don't need more agitprop in this thread. Our readers are looking for sourced information. Alex Yeliseenko has provided some. After having read the book he linked to, the accounts in it are comparable to similar accounts from other countries under Nazi occupation, and I see no reason to doubt their truth. If other posters have documented criticisms or sourced reasonsw why these particular accounts should be disbelieved, they can step right up and present them. If they have no sources, they can step right down.

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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 23 Apr 2007 03:12

BTW Was there an anti nazi resistance in Estonia between june 41 and september 44?


Yes. Exempl, communist partizans.

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Post by Peeter » 23 Apr 2007 05:48

The net of undercover communist resistance, left in Estonia by Soviets was destroyed right away, all so called partizans were sent over the frontline from Russia. All groups who showed some activity (robbery, murders) were captured quickly, because they had zero support by local people.
The list of executed people in the first post should be possible to check out in archives- what for those persons were executed. Arrested suspected communist supporters etc were investigated. People with less guilt were sentenced for short time in camp, but executed were those who had made serious harm to their own people- NKVD agents, members of destruction battalions etc. And of course there were made some serious mistakes so that innocent people were killed, mostly during/right after battles in summer 1941

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Post by Kim Sung » 23 Apr 2007 05:58

An interesting news article on the statue in Tallinn and enmity between Russian and formerly Soviet-controlled eastern European countries

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070422/ap_ ... et_symbols

A large pro-Kremlin youth group in Russia, Nashi, has promised to send young people to stand guard over the monument. Sergei Ivanov, Russia's first deputy prime minister and possible successor to President Vladimir Putin, called on Russians to stop buying Estonian products and vacationing in the Baltic country.

Vladimir Velman, a member of Estonia's parliament and a native Russian, warns: "There's going to be trouble as soon as the shovel touches the ground."

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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 23 Apr 2007 07:33

Kim Sung wrote:An interesting news article on the statue in Tallinn and enmity between Russian and formerly Soviet-controlled eastern European countries

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070422/ap_ ... et_symbols

A large pro-Kremlin youth group in Russia, Nashi, has promised to send young people to stand guard over the monument. Sergei Ivanov, Russia's first deputy prime minister and possible successor to President Vladimir Putin, called on Russians to stop buying Estonian products and vacationing in the Baltic country.

Vladimir Velman, a member of Estonia's parliament and a native Russian, warns: "There's going to be trouble as soon as the shovel touches the ground."


It is a policy. It is not interesting to me.

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Post by Carnaro » 23 Apr 2007 09:22

Just another one post, just to reply to someone’s uncouth manners and obtuse pro-soviet propaganda.
I transcribe part of the introduction of final Report of Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity, set up by President of Estonia Mr.Lennart Meri on 1999 and published on 2006.
This just to say that Estonian – people & government – have nothing to hide, nor – least of all – to apoligize to anyone. Rather is the contrary.
Maybe that the 50-years soviet joke on Estonia have not been all of death & distress… Maybe. But surely the 13 years of Stalin’s era were full of tyranny, terror, death & distress. And 13 years are more than sufficient to a people.
This is not bla-bla, nor ludicrous statements.
The facts in details and without hide anything are published in the +1000 pages Report of the Commission. The Report is available on Web and is not much expensive. The gentlemen on this post are warmly invited to buy.

Two Part: A) Crimes committed under Soviet occupation and B) Crimes committed under German occupation.

Quoted from
ESTONIA 1940-1940 – Reports of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity.
Tallinn 2006
Chairman: Minister Max Jakobson
Members: Dr Uffe Ellemann-Jensen, Dr. Paul Goble, Nicholas Lane, Prof. Peter Reddaway, Arseny Roginsky, Prof. Freiherr Wolfgang von Stetten


A - From §: The Soviet Occupation of Estonia in 1940-1941

CONCLUSION (pagg XIV-XVI)
The Commission concludes that the crimes enumerated above should be considered crimes against humanity according to Article 7 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as “a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack”. A portion of the crimes committed in Estonia territory beginning on 22 June 1941 should be cosidered war crimes according to Article 8 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

The commission considers that responsability for the crimes committed in respect the above-mentioned events should be assigned in two ways. Firstly, we deem ceertain people responsible by virtue of the position they held, for having given orders which resulted in crimes against humanyty.
In the second instance, responsability is solely determined by the actions of an individual.

The commission studied the functions and activities of institutions of the URSS that operated in Estonia or made decisions concerning Estonia in 1940-41 and of local institutions subordinate to them that operated as implementers of decision, permitting the identification as follows of offices and individuals who bear responsability for the crimes against humanity and war crimes committed in Estonia in 1940-41

The overall supervision of the process involved was the jurisdiction of the central institutions of the URSS, meaning Stalin as the General Secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU, the Central Committee of the CPSU itself and especially its Politburo, and the Council of People’s Commissars. Consequently, these institutions also bear overall responsability for the crimes against humanity committed in Estonia. In this respect, the Main Administration of State Security of the People’s Commissariat of Internal Affairs of the Soviet Union (GUGB NKVD) must be singled out here along with the People’s Commissariat of State Security of the Soviet Union (NKGB) formed in February of 1941 on the basis of the former.

The Vare’s governement that operated from June through August of 1940 shares general responsability in Estonia; although the decisions it adopted were made under pressure from representatives of the URSS, they were the source for crimes against humanity. From August of 1940 to late summer of 1941, the Central Committee of the ECP and its Bureau headed by Karl Sare and the Council of People’s Commissars of the ESSR headed by Johannes Lauristin share general responsability.

Responsability for specific deeds carried out from June through August of 1940 lies primarily with the members of the NKVD operational group that operated in Estonia. Along with them, local functionaries are responsible since the actions of the NKVD operstional group were made possible through theis cooperation. Individuals who must be singled out are: Minister of the Internal Affairs Maksin Unt who coordinated the take-over of the police institutions of the Republic of Estonia and their subsequent activity; Chief of Internal Security Harald Haberman who coordinate day-to-day activity in the field of internal security and who ordered the arrest of at least 9 individuals who were later executed or died in prison; Murro who was appointed director of the Police Bureau in July 1940 and deputy director Kumm; the commissars and officials of the political police (especially Commissar of Tallinn Aleksander Reinson) appointed to office from June through August 1940, whose orders of activities resulted in the arrest of several hundred peoples who were turned over to the NKVD and most of whom were later executed or perished in the prison camps of the URSS.

Responsability for the deeds carried out from August of 1940 to late summer of 1941 lise with:
1) The State Security Administration of the People’s Commissariat for Internal Affairs of the ESSR that was reorganised beginning in February 1941 as the People’s Commissariat of State Security of the ESSR, the jurisdiction of which included the inprisonment of individuals on political grounds. Kumm was the People’s Commissar of Internal Affairs and was appointed People’s Comissar of State Security on February 1941; Deputy People’s Commissar of Internal Affairs Murro was appointed People’s Commissar of Internal Affairs in February 1941.
2) The following leading officials of the People’s Commissariat for Internal Affairs and later the People’s Commissariat of State Security must be singled out: Shkurin […], Sergei Kingisepp […], Idel Jakobson […] who toghether with Kumm authorised most of the arrest orders and summaries of indictment. Responsabilities also extends to the heads of the local department […] Reinson, Alfred Pressmann (Tartu, shares responsability for the execution of 199 prisoners in July 1941), Vassili Riis (Saarema, shares responsability for the execution of prisoners in Saarema in September 1941), Karel Paas […] and others.
3) Responsability also lies with […] officials who compiled the lists of peoples to be arrested, apprehended and interrogated them and compiled summaries of indictment. In addition to the Central Committee of the CPSU and the Council of People’s Commissars of the URSS, the NKVD and the NKGB, the People’s Commissariat for Internal Affairs and the People’s Commissariat of State Security of the ESSR, the NKVD units of convoy troops deloyed in Estonia that arrested, gathered together and convoyed the people to be deported are also responsible for the deportation carried out on 14 June 1941 and the later deportation from the islands.
4) State Prosecutor of the ESSR Kaarel Paas, Deputy […] Nikiforov and the prosecutors of the Special Department who sanctioned the arrest and trial of citizen or resident of the Republic of Estonia with the presented indictment for political reasons.
5) Special department of units and military formations of the Red Army and the Baltic Naval Fleet located in Estonia that also pursued, arrested and interrogated citizens and residents of the Republic of Estonia on political grounds and placed them on trial by military tribunal.
6) Various compositions of military tribunals – tne military tribunals of the NKVD Baltic District Forces, the military tribunal of the Baltic Special Military District, the military tribunal of the Baltic Naval Fleet, the military tribunal of the 8th Army, the Railway Military tribunal, the military tribunal of the Baltic Coastal Defence Region and other military tribunals – are responsible for the groundless convictions they handed down. These tribunals sentenced citizens and residents of the Republic of Estonia to death or imprisonment in prison camps where most of them shortly died due to labour beyond their strenght and extremely difficultliving conditions. The members of the NKVD Special Counsel who sentenced citizens and residents of the Republic of Estonia to prison or death in absentia on the basis of documents are also responsible, as are members of the Supreme Court of the ESSR who passed judgement on political grounds on arrested citizens of the Republic of Estonia, as a result of which they were sent to prison camps in URSS.

The followind are also responsible for killings and other acts that in part can be considered war crimes, committed after the beginning of the war between the Soviet Union and Germany:
1) Members of the NKVD operational group in Estonia: head of the NKVD forces in the Baltic District Maj.Gen. Rakutin, Deputy […]Shkurin and Deputy […] Lobanovich, all of whom alongside other measures gavenorders for the formation of destruction bataillons in the territory of Estonia; the Central Committee of the ECP […] also partecipated in the coordination of the activity of destruction bataillons.
2) Members of the operational group of the destruction bataillons: […] Lieutnant Colonel Okayev (Captain Mikhail Pasternak as of 21 July 1941) and its commissars […] Feodor Okk. The leaders commissars and the members ofthe destruction bataillons who are guilty of killing civilians are responsible for their own actions. A total of 6000 people belonged to destruction bataillons formed in Estonia. On this pointm special attention must be paid to the actions in Estonia of destruction bataillons that retreated from Latvia to Estonia.
3) The Leaders and commissars of those units of the Red Army and Baltic Naval Fleet with members guilty of killings civilians and alsto those soldiers and sailors of the URSS who killed civilians in Estonia.
4) The Military Council of the Baltic Navl Fleet and military commissars of the Red Army deployed in Estonia who issued orders for the conscription of citizens and residents of the Republic of Estonia into the Red Army and their consequent deportation from Estonia.

Crimes against humanity committed in Estonia in 1940-41 resulted from the policy of the leadership of URSS, whose objective was the rapid incorporation of Estonia into URSS and the elimination of social groups and individuals that did not conform to the ideology of the URSS. The position of the Commission is that no ideology can justify the inprisonment, maiming and execution of thousands of innocent people. The activity of citizens of the Republic of Estonia in the service of their country and people, in accordance with existing laws of Estonia before the Soviet Occupation, could not under any circumstances b eground for their subsequent conviction according to the laws of the Soviet Union.


B - From §: The German Occupation of Estonia in 1941-1944

GENERAL CONSIDERATIONS (pagg. XXII-XXIII)

The Commission decided that it could not conclude this Report without makinbg some general comments on the situation facing Estonia during the German occupation.

There is no doubt that the year-long Soviet occupation which immediately preceeded the german attack on the Soviet Union caused immense damage to Estonia’s institutions and to her citizens. In particular, the mass deportations of June 1941 (at least 1% of the entire population, including 10% of the Jewish community) created an atmosphere of panic, in which the German invasion initially appeared to many as a form of liberation.

In the confusion of the first two months, until german forces occupied the whole of Estonia, the implementation on Estonian territory and against Estonian Jews of Nazi genocidal policies – evident in the murder of Estonian Jews in Parnu and elsewhere – went largely unnoticed by the population as a whole.

By the time the roundup of Jews (and Roma) began in earnest in late August 1941, over three-quarters of the Jewish community had fled. Anedoctal evidence suggest that some of those who stayed behind did so because they refused to seek refuge in the Soviet Union.

The extermination of the remaining Estonian Jews wascarried out so throughly, by Sonderkommando 1a with assistance from the Omakaitse and the Estonian Police, that no ghetto was formed. Until the later deportation of foreign Jews to camps in Estonia, the only surviving Jews on Estonian territory were those few who had been hidden by Estonian friends or relatives.

The use of Estonian military units (including the Estonian Legion), and police bataillons in various capacities in Belarus and Poland suggest at best indifference on the part of those troops and their officers to the plight of Jews; at worse, active cooperation in genocide. Estonia troops guarded several towns in Poland from which Jews were periodically deported to death camps, to prevent their escape. On the basis of what happened elsewhere there would have been attempts to break out to the forest. There is no documentary evidence of the actions taken by Estonian troops, but the implications of their presence in and around those towns are clear.

The eye-witness account by Polish resistance fighter Jan Kraski of the event at the Izbica transit camp is eqully clear. Jews were loaded into trains whose floor had been covered in quicklime, and which were then shunted onto sidings until they were dead. Karski entered the camp (which he initially thought was Belzec) by bribing an Estonian guard. This unidentified Estonian unit shared guard uties with auxiliaries of other nationalities.

The evidence for the partecipation of the 36th Police Bataillon in the liquidation of the getto in Novogrudok is much clearer and compelling. In view of the repeated use of the language used to disguise this crime (“fighting againstpartisans”), the Commission believes that at least a portion of the activity of the Estonian police bataillons constituted, or contributed to, crimes against humanity.

There is doubt about the activities of the “forest brother”, and later the Omakaitse in the first few weeks after the german invasion, although this part of the subject is poorly documented. The recruitment of “destruction bataillons” to support the scorched earth withdrawal of the Red Army gave rise to the Summer War in Estonia – engagements primarly between armed bands of Estonians who took opposing political positions.

Our research has shown that a significant majority of destruction bataillns members were ethnic Estonians, as were the bulk of those “forest brothers” and member of the Omakaitse opposing them. There is every reasosn to believe thatin the confusion of the first stage of the german invasion, crimes were committed by both sides in the conflict, and that innocent civilians were deliberately killed. Many of the hundreds of “suspects” rounded up by Omakaitse and many killed by soviet destruction bataillons fall into this category.

The situation of those who wanted a return to a free and democratic Estonian state, and consequently opposed both the Germans and Soviets, was the most difficult. They had virtually no means of expressing themselves. Their existence can be inferred from the shortage of volunteers for military and police units in the earlier stages of the german occupation.

There is anedoctal evidence from surveys of popular opinion conducted by Estonian Security Police that this passive resistance grew as it become evident that Estonia would not recover her independence under the aegis of the Germans, nor would the Soviet confiscations of land and property be reversed.

We note that over 3500 Estonians crossed the Gulf of Finland, some to avoid conscription and others to volunteer to serve in the finnish Army, so that they could fight against the Soviets, but not under German command. We believe that many of these men were taking the only action they beleved possible at the time, to enable them to play some active role in the struggle for eventual recovery of Estonian independence. We believe that the 1800 men who returned to Estonia in August 1944 at the urging of the last pre-war Estonia Prime Minister Juri Uluots, continued in this belief when they returned to Estonia as Soviet forced advanced.

In essence the main difficulty throught the German occupation (and afterwards) wes that resistance to the Germans would inevitably be contrued as support for communism and the Soviet Union; while the resistance to the Soviets would be construed support for naziosm. Despite the continued service of diplomats of the Estonian Republic in several countries, there was no Estonian government in exile, in whose name resistance could have been undertaken. There was very little “middle ground”.

The attitude until the late summer of 1944 of those few pro-democracy and proindependence politicians who were still active, was that when the war endes, Estonia would have the opportunity at the peace conference to reassert har claims to independence. In hindsight, this was a forlorn hope. The attempt inSeptember 1944 to restore and independent state and governement, and resist to reimposition of Soviet rule, was prevented by the opposition of german forces, the refusal of the Soviets to negotiate and the weakness of the military units at the disposal of the new governement.

The people who left Estonia before the advancing Russians did so because they did not want to find themselvese under Soviet occupation again. Among their numbers were those who believed that their cooperation with the Germans would have brought them before Soviet justice. Some, at least, were members of theDirectorate, or of the Security Police, of had as members of military units or police bataillons guarded camps or towns in which crimes against humanity or acts of genocide had been committed.

These peoples were, with isolated exceptions, never required to account for their actions before a court of law. The outbreak of the Cold War provided a form of amnesty for those who could claim that their struggle had been against the Soviets, even if in alliance with or subordinated to Germany. Questions about the nature of their activity during the war were, with a few exceptions, not asked […].

Our research examined the fate of numbers of Estonians who had stayed in Estonia, or had fallen into Soviets hands as prisoners, and were put on trial. A few were acquitted. Others were convicted of a range of criminal activities on the basis of credible evidence. But when their convictions were based solely on collaborations with the Germans, as Soviet citizens, the convictions were unsound. Estonia had not joined the Soviet Union by any form of due process, and Estonians had every right to regard themselves as citizens of the Estonian Republic.

We recognize that the repressive policies of both of the Soviets periods of occupation, the inability of Estonia to reassert her indipendence during or after the German occupation, the losses of life and property that occurred as a reult of the war, and the further loss of tens of thousands of Estonians who fled the return of the Soviets, made Estonia and Estonians a victim nation. After the war it was only natural that Estonians in exile and Estonians still in Estonia primarly attributed this victimhood to the “oppressor in residence”, the Soviet Union. This explains why it was difficult to deal with the German occupation.

The Commission believes being a victim does not preclude acts of perpetrations. A people which respects the rule of law should recognize crimes when they have been committed, and condems them and those who committed them.

It’s unjust that an entire nation should be criminalized because of the actions of some of its citizens; but it’s equally unjust that its criminals should be able to shelter behind acloak of victimhood.

------------------------------


These are the facts. All the rest is propagandistic and instrumentally garbage.
For me this is all.

Max

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 23 Apr 2007 09:40

It is that Mr. Lennart Meri which suspected of communications with KGB (agent Nikolayev) ? Translation of this text is and in English. This text in any way does not solve a problem of murders of thousand Jews in 1941-1944.

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Post by Arnold » 23 Apr 2007 10:32

Message edited by moderator to remove personal attacks. - Andreas

Estonia 1940 – 1945. Reports of Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity (Chairman: Minister Max Jakobson Members: Dr. Uffe Ellemann – Jensen, Dr. Paul Goble, Nicholas Lane, Prof. Peter Reddaway, Arseny Roginsky, Prof. Freiherr Wolfgang von Stetten)

Page 877
SOVIET INVESTIGATIONS CONCERNING THE ACTIVITIES OF ESTONIAN DEFENCE BATTALIONS AND POLICE BATTALIONS OF THE GERMAN ARMED FORCES IN 1941 - 1944

SOURCES
Materials of court cases of former police battalion members from collections no. SM 129 (Collection of closed investigation files) and no. SM 130 (Collection of unclosed investigation files) in the Department of Estonian State Archives have been used in compiling this overview. /..../

36TH DEFENCE BATTALION
Ervin – Ferdinand Kald, Robert Vardja, Oskar Lanno, Erich Hausman and August Reinvald served in 36th Defence Battalion.

According to Kald, the battalion was formed in Kuressaare. The men were given Latvian Army uniforms and received training, which lasted until February of 1942. At that time, the batallion was sent to Haapsalu and after two weeks to Tartu, where the unit received additional training. In September of 1942, the battalion was sent to the Stalingrad front.

According to Vardja, Lanno and Hausman, their unit was deployed near Kaunas in Lithuania in September of 1943, where they carried out raids on partisans. Lanno testified that the battalion was reformed in Paide, where they received orders to depart for Lithuania and in September – October of 1943 from there on to Belorussia. Together with other police battalions, they fought there against partisans. In the course of consistent figthing, their unit shrank considerably and was merged in the autumn of 1943 with the 288th Police Battalion, which continued similar activities in Belorussia (The 36th Battalion was disbanded in early 1943. The 286th Police Battalion was in Lithuania in September of 1943. I.P.).

Reinvald provided the longest description of the activities of the battalion, while he joined the unit in July of 1942 in Tartu. Practically no activities took place in Tartu, except for occasional exercises. Thereafter the battalion was sent to Belorussia and Ukraine to carry out punishment raids among the local population. In August of 1942, the battalion was instructed to go to the town of Nowogrodek in Belorussia, where it remained for three weeks. Initially it received training. Once Reinvald’s unit participated in a raid in a small town about 50 kilometers from Nowogrodek. There Russians in SS-uniforms brought Jews to the town square, where they were kicked and beaten with sticks. Afterwards the Russians and the 1st Company of the Battalion took the Jews out of town, where it is said they were all shot. The whole operation was carried out under the command of Germans. The 2nd Company was in reserve at the time and therefore did not participate in the shootings. However, the 2nd Company guarded the Jewish ghetto of Nowogrodek at the samet ime. In the morning, the Germans had come back and the Jews were taken out of town in vehicles and shot while the police battalion guarding the ghetto.

The case of Rudolf Mäeorg is a vivid example of the investigation of the actions of the 36th police Battalion. Mäeorg was summoned to the Kuressaare department of the Ministry for State Security on 15 July 1948 to give testimony concerning the actions of the 36th police Battalion in belorussia. At the very beginning of his testimony already, Mäeorg stated that the „primary task of the police battalion was the execution of Jews who lived in the town of Nowogrodek and the villages in the vicinity of that town“, whereas he confessed this without being asked about it directly. He tstifies that together with the entire 3rd squad, he participated in the arresting, escorting and execution of Jews. Allegedly, he personally shot about ten Jews. Detailed descriptions of the entire operation follow. The entire 2nd Company is said to have fulfilled the same tasks. The order for Mäeorg’s arrest was formulated a week later. The basis for this arrest was his confession and the statement of the above-mentioned special commission. A few weeks later during his interrogation in Tallinn, however, he testified that he did not even serve in the 36th Police Battalion during the time when the executions took place in Nowogrodek in August of 1942; rather he was transferred to that unit at a later date. When asked why he testified something entirely different earlier, he replied that he was threatened with a weapon and thus forced t omake that confession. Other witnesses also confirmed Mäeorg’s later arrival in the 36th Battalion. /...../

Page 861
THE 36TH DEFENCE BATTALION IN BELORUSSIA, UKRAINE AND ON THE OUTER STALINGRAD FRONT

/...../ The possible connection of the 36th Battalion to crimes against humanity in Belorussia in 1942 was investigated in the Federal Republic of Germany as well in 1967-1971, but no evidence was found. (Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen Ludwigsburg II 202 AR-Z 219/1967)
/....../ While it was in Nowogrodek, the battalion was used in anti-partisan warfare up to a radius of 30 km around Nowogrodek (Befriedung des Geländes im Raume um Nowogrodek bis zu 30 km). On 6 August 1942, one 26-man detachment was also deployed in Diatlovo (Zdzieciol in Polish). Until 25 August, two men were wounded and private Manfred Westerbom was killed in action. According to data gathered by the Israeli police in September of 1963, about 2000 and at least 3000 Jews were murdered in
Diatlovo and Nowogrodek on 6 and 7 August 1942 respectively. There is no reliable data concerning the participation of members of the 36th Estonian Defence battalion in the execution of Jews. Contemporary researchers accuse the local German gendarmerie, one Lithuanian unit and a Belorussian defence battalion of these specific actions. /...../
http://www.mippbooks.com/Page.BCart.cls ... KSID=83694

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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 23 Apr 2007 10:42

Morally weak people leave from the main theme. Try to offend other people. It is a pity to me you. Communists forbade to publish these documents. It contradicted the Soviet internationalism. Almost always spoke, that crimes were made by Germans. They tried to shift the responsibility for crimes on Germans.

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Post by Carnaro » 23 Apr 2007 12:05

It is that Mr. Lennart Meri which suspected of communications with KGB (agent Nikolayev) ?


First of all is not this the subject of this post. 2) Even if (and i don't know), anyone is innocent till a contrary proof. And a suspect is not a proof. 3) following the statements of the on-line "book" you quote, ARE the Estonian politicians or NOT revisionists/pro-nazi etc? And now seems they have instead pro-KGB connections.... Bho :roll: 4) Seems to me that to throw doubts and hints on the adversary is a tipycal KGB-style. Or not?

Translation of this text is and in English.

The Report is in english simply because the Commission is an international Commission not an Estonian or a Mr Lennart's Commission. I'm sure that in Estonia exist also a version in Estonian. So will be easy for you to find a trustly bilingual Russian/Estonian translator, able to translate the Report for you.

This text in any way does not solve a problem of murders of thousand Jews in 1941-1944


The whole Report has +1.370 pages. At least 100 deals with crimes committed under German occupation, against Jews (Estonian & Foreigners), Soviet POW's, Soviet citizens and Estonian communists. Lagers Klooga, Vaivara etc, are also examined.
Also, bibliography takes into account an incredible amount of Soviet and Russian files and sources, and archivial resources.

Read to believe.

Max

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Post by Andreas » 23 Apr 2007 12:11

Arnold

I very strongly suggest to not resort to personal insults. They are in violation of our forum guidelines, and repetition may lead to deletion of your entire post, and your eventual banning from this site.

Forum Guidelines wrote:These are the basic guidelines of this forum:
* No insults are tolerated (that includes serious national and religious insults)


Thank you.

Andreas

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Post by Yuri » 23 Apr 2007 13:28

Kim Sung wrote:An interesting news article on the statue in Tallinn and enmity between Russian and formerly Soviet-controlled eastern European countries

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070422/ap_ ... et_symbols


The problem, says Eugeniusz Smolar, head of the Center for International Relations, a Polish think tank, is that "Russia has never come to terms with its history." Russians continue to see themselves only as victims of World War II, he said, and ignore the dictatorial systems they imposed on the countries they liberated from the Germans.


Problem not in Russians. Problem in heads of such figures as Eugeniusz Smolar and to him similar.
«victims of World War II» so it is possible to tell about Poles.
Russians – winners World War II

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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 23 Apr 2007 13:35

Anti-nazi partisan resistance in Estonia during this period existed. It was weaker than in other countries. But it was. Later I am ready to tell about it in other strings.


And now for those who has not understood. Me the policy does not interest. " Bronze soldiers ", " grey nazi mouse " and " the African gods " do not interest. I do not know that such agitprop. I am not familiar with agents of KGB. As I remember, KGB for a long time is not present.

The maximum value for me - DOCUMENTS. DOCUMENTS of the ARCHIVES CLOSED In COMMUNISTIC TIME. It is selection of such documents. But it is the first translation of documents on English. Will be still. Already there are such documents across Latvia. If there is an interest, it is possible to arrive communication on these documents. I wait from forummember for German documents. It will add a string.

Also it is not necessary to result here stories about the Soviet occupation. The Soviet occupation 1944-1991 has no attitude to events of 1941-1944. I do not understand, how murder of the person in 1942 can concerns to the Soviet occupation, for example in 1962? It is important to know - there was a fact of a crime or not.

Search of the truth - a challenge. Especially search of the historical truth. But sometimes it brings result. To result we also should arrive.

The insult - not the best variant of search of the truth.

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