Estonia. The Bloody trace of nazism.1941-1944

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Anne G,
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Post by Anne G, » 26 Apr 2007 07:54

michael mills wrote: The vast majority of ethnic Estonians regarded the German forces that expelled the Soviet occupiers in July 1941 as their liberators from an oppressive Stalinist tyranny. There was nothing that the German forces did to that majority during their three-year occupation that would have changed their mind.
Your other points are good, but the last sentence in this paragraph is not. The Estonians had waited for the restoration of their independence. When the Germans did nothing of the kind but treated Estonia as an occupied country, the Estonians were disappointed.

F.ex. the great writer Jaan Kross was imprisoned already during the German occupation and again when the Soviets came back and sent to Siberia.

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 26 Apr 2007 09:43

I shall remind. Estonia has not rendered any resistance soviet in 1940. But has shown resistance to Germans in 1941. It was Estonian corps Red Army. In the separate guide I shall show heroism Estonian soldier Red Army.

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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 26 Apr 2007 09:49

Still. I do not have desire and time to argue. There are documents. And I trust them. All rest - conjectures and modern interpretations.

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Post by Allen Milcic » 26 Apr 2007 13:40

* A ranting, insulting and off-topic posting by Reigo was removed by this Moderator. A temporary lock is being placed on the thread until such time as the Host of the section has time to re-evaluate whether it continues to serve any purpose whatsoever on the Forum. In the interim, if I may suggest, Reigo, take a deep breath or two and calm yourself - vitriol will get you nowhere. *

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Post by David Thompson » 26 Apr 2007 14:34

This thread is reopened for civil, sourced discussion of the German occupation of Estonia in 1941-1944.

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Carnaro
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Post by Carnaro » 26 Apr 2007 16:26

Unfortunately seems impossible to produce any serious historical reasoning in this thread. It's too political.
I totally agree with JariL when he said:
In general this thread is not about history it is about politics. It is rather pointless to use historical method to a document that has purely political agenda.
This thread born as a failed attempt to design an instrumental figure around Estonian People & leadeship, giving them an asserted ( & based on specious pretexts), pro-nazi (ergo anti-Soviet and as a consequence anti-Russian) attitude. This attempt failed as showed by the Report: Report that - on my opinions - could be considered something like an official (or semi official), position of the Estonian leadeship - as the International Commission was create under the patronage on Estonian President and with a Minister as a Chairman.

Now, failed this instrumental attempt, there's the intention to cover with an "aura" of heroism what it was a totally-illegal action perpetrated by Red Army against Estonian People: the recruitment of Estonian citizens. Again, this attempt is political and functionally to a pro-Soviet - and as a consequence pro-Russian - ergo anti-Estonian, design.

I quote again the Report, pag. 444.

The mobilization carried out by URSS in Estonia in 1941 shall be considered as a massive repression comparable to deportation.

Mobilisation in Estonia were not in accordance with the Hague convention. The mobilisation of the inhabitants of an occupied territory to the army of the occupying country was a crime accordingto the 4th convention of the Hague in 1907. The Court of Nurembberg in 1946 pronounced this to have already been generally accepted common law at the time between the wars. People connected to the persecution and repression of those who evaded mobilisation are war criminal, because their activities were contrary to the laws and customs of warfare generally known from international law.

(Annex to IV Convention "Laws and Customs of War on Land").

The forced recruitment in Estonia by Red Army could be compared with the forced recruitment of the so-called malgré nous in Alsace-Lorraine (and Luxemburg) by the Nazi Army.

For this reason - my poor opinion is that this thread is totally unuseful and - on the contrary - harmful, and I allow myself to suggest its closure to the Moderator.

Max

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 26 Apr 2007 16:57

It is not necessary to translate discussion in a political "corner". Here are mentioned the facts against which you have opposed with nothing.

Closing of a string will mean one - " double standards ".

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Carnaro
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Post by Carnaro » 26 Apr 2007 17:31

It is not necessary to translate discussion in a political "corner".
Eh no. you have begun the discussion under political point of view, quoting a "document" 100% politic. If you wanted to start a real historical discussion you had as minimum to erase from the "document" the totally political introduction and then to start a discussion about facts, crimes, bataillons, actions, taken from the "document". You have not done it: ergo, you have backed the opinion of the unknown "author/s". It was not this your intention? Well, you have wrong the formulation.
Here are mentioned the facts .
Facts? What facts? The facts are in the Report. The Report don't hide anything.
The only one "fact" you mention is the "document". But it's too corrupted by politic, to be acceptable
against which you have opposed with nothing
Nothing? You consider nothing an International Report from an Historical Commission?
You consider nothing the Hague Convention?

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Post by David Thompson » 26 Apr 2007 19:17

I'll leave the thread open in an effort to get as much sourced information as possible on the subject for our readers. They can make up their own minds about what is propaganda and what is fact.

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Post by michael mills » 26 Apr 2007 23:44

Your other points are good, but the last sentence in this paragraph is not. The Estonians had waited for the restoration of their independence. When the Germans did nothing of the kind but treated Estonia as an occupied country, the Estonians were disappointed.
Ethnic Estonians may well have been disappointed that the expulsion of the Soviet occupiers by the German invasion in July 1941 did not result in the restoration of national independence.

Nevertheless, for the majority of ethnic Estonians, German rule was the lesser of two evils, and certainly preferable to the Stalinist tyranny that oppressed them for one year from July 1940 to July 1941, and again from mid-1944 at least until Stalin's death in 1953.

German National Socialist ideology regarded the Estonians, like the Finns, as a "Nordic" people of high racial value, and for that reason accorded them a high status in the racial hierarchy that it was proposed to establish in a German-dominated Europe. Ethnic Estonians were not persecuted by the German occupiers as a people; only the minority who actively supported a return of Soviet rule were repressed.

For the tiny Jewish population of Estonia, the situation was reversed. No matter how oppressive Stalinist rule was, for them it was the lesser of two evils, and infinitely preferable to German rule under which they were certain to victimised.

Given that background, it is easy to see why Estonians of today do not regard their compatriots who fought on the German side as collaborationist criminals, but rather as fighters against Soviet oppression. The position of Estonians who joined the German forces for the purpose of fighting against the Soviet Union is thus analogous to that of the members of British and United States forces who fought against Germany as allies of Stalin; in both cases they were fighting a common enemy, rather than for the ideology espoused by either of the two dictators.

It is also important to realise that Germany did not invade an independent Estonia and overthrow a legal government. The legal government of Estonia had been overthrown by the Soviet Union in 1940, and the country was under foreign occupation. The German invasion of Estonia in 1941 might therefore be compared to the Allied invasion of France in 1944.

This thread in my view does have a legitimate purpose, which is to assess the scope of German criminal acts in Estonia. However, the thread's title is misleading, since it suggests that the German occupiers treated the ethnic Estonian population very harshly, which is far from the case.

So far, all that has been shown is that some hundreds of ethnic Estonians were imprisoned and/or executed by German forces or by Estonian auxiliaries. To the extent that those persons had collaborated with the Soviet occupation, and had participated in the repression of their fellow countrymen, they were not entirely innocent victims. The actions against tham may be compared to the bloody purging of French collaborators with the German occupiers carried out by the Resistance in the summer and autumn of 1944.

To be sure, there is also the fate of the one thousand or so Jews who did not flee or were not evacuated from Estonia before the arrival of the German forces. But the scope of anti-Jewish atrocities there was minimal compared with what happened elsewhere in occupied Soviet territory.

In summary, the trace of German rule in Estonia was not particularly bloody at all, particularly not as regards the overwhelming majority of the population of that country.

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Post by Sergey » 29 Apr 2007 14:55

michael mills wrote:To be sure, there is also the fate of the one thousand or so Jews who did not flee or were not evacuated from Estonia before the arrival of the German forces. But the scope of anti-Jewish atrocities there was minimal compared with what happened elsewhere in occupied Soviet territory.

In summary, the trace of German rule in Estonia was not particularly bloody at all, particularly not as regards the overwhelming majority of the population of that country.
Except all Gypsies were exterminated.

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/holocaust_and_ ... -wendt.pdf

How can we speak about minimal atrocities? In fact all remained Jews were killed. So Estonia is among territories with highest percent of exterminated Jews.

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Post by michael mills » 30 Apr 2007 01:26

The numbers killed by the German occupiers were relatively small, and the groups targeted were marginal to the Estonian nation.

By contrast, the Soviet occupiers. both before and after the German occupation of 1941-44, attacked the very core of the Estonian nation, killing or deporting its leading elements.

That is the reason why today ethnic Estonians see the long Soviet occupation of their country as much worse than the short period of German rule, and why they wish to remove all reminders of that occupation.

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Post by Anne G, » 01 May 2007 20:48

michael mills wrote: It is also important to realise that Germany did not invade an independent Estonia and overthrow a legal government. The legal government of Estonia had been overthrown by the Soviet Union in 1940, and the country was under foreign occupation. The German invasion of Estonia in 1941 might therefore be compared to the Allied invasion of France in 1944.
I don't agree. France was really liberated, it got its own government. Estonia didn't

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Post by Orlov » 03 May 2007 20:55

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:Still. I do not have desire and time to argue. There are documents. And I trust them. All rest - conjectures and modern interpretations.
Hello
I observe hot discussion and I would like answer to Alex (especially) after my lecture interesting article "Russia look for appropriate history" by dr Piotr Gontarczyk, I am afraid he is Poles (like me) and his contention regarding present Russian historical tendencies. He wrote about latest monographies and collection of documents. One of them "ESTONIA. THE BLOODY TRACE OF NAZISM: 1941-1944 SELECTION OF ARCHIVAL DOCUMENTS ON CRIMES OF ESTONIAN COLLABORATORS DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR" is a typical work of ex-Soviet secret police. Earlier KGB work upon some materials about fascist in Polish Home Army". Now FSB find in their own archive fantastic docu... about terrible Estonians (meanwhile these Baltic Ingrates forgot bravery Red Army and they destroy one monument in Tallin).
We know about Estonian collaboration and 20. SS-Gren-Div (1st Estonian) but we would like recognize authors cited collection od docu... I would like remind all docu.. presented tn these collection come from Central Archive FSB.

All intersting in present problem of objectivity (regarding Russian prof. prof. Albina Noskova, Stanislav Morozov, Genadij Matvieyev or other historian R. Portugalskiy, O. Vyshliov) I direct to evoked article (in Polish):
http://www.rzeczpospolita.pl/dodatki/op ... e_a_2.html

Bestreg
Orlov

PS: Small coutries look at history unlike Great Power. Russia must change his vision of liberation half of Europe or estimation Stalin-Hitler Pact in 1939. Long way b4 us and them. I forgot about authentic Russian historian - prof. prof. A. Yakovlev or A. Sakharov.

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Post by David Thompson » 03 May 2007 22:18

Orlov -- You wrote:
SELECTION OF ARCHIVAL DOCUMENTS ON CRIMES OF ESTONIAN COLLABORATORS DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR" is a typical work of ex-Soviet secret police.

and
Now FSB find in their own archive fantastic docu... about terrible Estonians (meanwhile these Baltic Ingrates forgot bravery Red Army and they destroy one monument in Tallin).
and
I would like remind all docu.. presented tn these collection come from Central Archive FSB.
If there is something wrong with the accounts given in this book, please tell the readers what it is, citing to other works which give an accurate version. Without that, your message is just another general "don't trust it" post which makes an undocumented claim and gives our readers no guidance whatsoever to finding the truth.

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