German Plans to Seize Food from the Soviet Union

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Darrin
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#76

Post by Darrin » 08 Jan 2003, 17:29

oleg wrote: "the new study" presumes that all soldiers returned to the places where they lived before the war which was obviously not the case, for some had no place to return
Immediately after the war and by 1949 the military commissariats conducted the so-called ?canvass of yards? where they went to people?s yards and homes with lists of questions for relatives of frontline soldiers who did not return from the war, with the aim of identifying the missing.
. Nor did it take into account those who were in the filtration camps, or in GULAG.
The study was started in the early 90s with a group of people and is based on individual card file counts. I guess I value a post cold war post SU study over offical SU army claims from 30 years ago
Krivosheev book came out in 1993.
Go to the end and look at the tital of the person who wrote this article. That has a lot of credibilty in my opinion.
I know who he is but his numbers (TSAMO rather0 do not add up. Finally who is fact that Ericson is dead is in any way related to the question on hand. He got the same number overall independently from Krivosheev. Besides that he books came out in the late 90s how is that 30 years ago?

Kirovsheyev still has missing millions in his own study. For exaple the 1 mil missing who later returned are not accounted for as either discharged or in the army at anytime. Just as one example.

As to disproving a new study using older rus army numbers I´ll wait to see if he provides new ones in his own study. You have to remeber his new study was not aimed at such a wide breath as the old one it concentrated on dead and missing never solved. Working with actual card files of individual soilders the article claims is the 'most exact and complete sources of personnal losses'. It also directly compares with the ger number. Instead of a sample of overall numbers from fronts addded together. Many people seeem to have fallen through the crack. Perhaps many of the new permant losses were incorrectly catagorized by kirovsheyev as only wounded or transfered to NKVD but actually died or went missing.

The ger post war studyies of its armys permant losses both dead and missing never returned are based on the soilders making it home. Overmans goes even further and includes any soiloders who didn´t apply for retirment pay today. He also has some statistical problems with his study. The ger list 3 mil soilders by name know to have died from any and all causes including known POW death totals before and after the war. Added to this is a list of 1 mil names missing never returned or solved. There are ger army post war studies that point to most of this 1 mil going missing in rus custody mainly after the war. A max of 4 mil dead individuals all recorded by name on thier own ger card system. Overmans points to an extra 1 mil missing but his study is flawed and not directly comparable to the ger army numbers either.

In 1949 it seems highly unlikly that the missing rus were in filtration camps. Any rus army person who was in the gulag in 1949 probably deserved to be thier. If they were ignored it would only be a small % of the total missing we are talking about. But the article does say at one point people in prisons were properly accouted for.

PS oleg if you are going to mix quotes in from other sources besides mine make sure you indicate it smoehow. Quote:Darrin Quote:Article

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#77

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 08 Jan 2003, 23:37

For exaple the 1 mil missing who later returned are not accounted for as either discharged or in the army at anytime. Just as one example.
how so? Did you even read Krivosheev?

Working with actual card files of individual soilders the article claims is the 'most exact and complete sources of personnal losses'.
not really.
n 1949 it seems highly unlikly that the missing rus were in filtration camps. Any rus army person who was in the gulag in 1949 probably deserved to be thier. If they were ignored it would only be a small % of the total missing we are talking about. But the article does say at one point people in prisons were properly accouted for.
First of all standard time for GULAG inmate was 10 years, consequently whoever got there in 1941 would be out in 1951 if he is lucky. Secondly as far as recall at least of former MIA two millions went through filtration camps. How is that small percentage.


David Thompson
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#78

Post by David Thompson » 12 Jan 2003, 02:47

Well for what it's worth, here's a contemporary German assessment of the economic situation of the Ukraine as of 2 Dec 1941, from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, vol. 5, pp. 994-97. Roberto quoted a portion of this document earlier in the thread, but after re-reading the discussion, I thought it was worth posting the full text:
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David Thompson
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#79

Post by David Thompson » 12 Jan 2003, 02:48

Here's the last of it:
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Oleg Grigoryev
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#80

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 31 Jan 2003, 21:30

viriato wrote:Oleg you are excused for the misspelling... 8)

You asked:
Viriato, Am I correct in thinking that you assume that all the difference in prewar population of the cities when compared to the moment of German occupation came form the results of organized evacuation?
Not at all! And you are already answering it:
7 million figure is figure of the people who were supposed to be evacuated on specific orders of local and central governments. Obviously the figure for the people who tried to escape the German onslaught was bigger, but they were not part of evacuation program.
My question is, do you know how many were involved on those "random" evacuations? Another 7 million? More? Less?
according to Krivosheev latest book about 15 million from occupied territories total were evacuted (by all means) or conscribed into the army.

Rarog
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#81

Post by Rarog » 17 Jul 2004, 13:05

viriato wrote:Scott Smith wrote:
The Soviet famine in the 1930s was largely confined to Ukraine...


The Ukraine wasn't the only region touched by the famine in the 1930's. Other regions were touched, the lower Volga, the Kuban and north Kazakhestan. What it can be also said is that those regions were populated in the main by non-Russians, Ukrainians in the Kuban, Germans and to a lesser extent, Ukrainians and Estonians in the lower Volga (down from Samara) and Kazakhs in northern Kazakhestan, and these ethnic minorities were overwhelming touched but not the Russians themselves.

http://www.brama.com/ukraine/history/famine/

http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/famine14.htm
Those regions were populated by Russians. Ukrainians were presented in small numbers only in the Kuban, majority of population of Northern Kazakhstan were Russians. Ukrainians and Estonians on lower Volga? LOL

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