Did the Generals know?

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marino46
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Did the Generals know?

Post by marino46 » 21 Jul 2007 14:22

A book titled Tapping Hitler's Generals: Transcripts of Secret Conversations 1942-45 edited by Sonke Neitzel with an introduction by Ian Kershaw, by Greenhill Books is going to be on sale on August 31 at £30.
There is a collection of 167 conversations secretly recorded by the CSDIC in Trent Park and extracts are published today (July 21) in the Daily Mail. Accordingly to the newspaper "...the alibi of the German High Command – that they didn't know what the SS were up to, and anyhow they were, as Heims put it, 'only carrying out orders' – is shown to be demonstrably false."

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Penn44
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Re: Did the Generals knew?

Post by Penn44 » 21 Jul 2007 15:44

marino46 wrote:A book titled Tapping Hitler's Generals: Transcripts of Secret Conversations 1942-45 edited by Sonke Neitzel with an introduction by Ian Kershaw, by Greenhill Books is going to be on sale on August 31 at £30.
There is a collection of 167 conversations secretly recorded by the CSDIC in Trent Park and extracts are published today (July 21) in the Daily Mail. Accordingly to the newspaper "...the alibi of the German High Command – that they didn't know what the SS were up to, and anyhow they were, as Heims put it, 'only carrying out orders' – is shown to be demonstrably false."


Here is a link to the Daily Mail article on the book.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/f ... ge_id=1879

Very interesting reading.

Penn44

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Ahf
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Post by Ahf » 21 Jul 2007 18:11

Interesting photo at the link, too. Anyone want to hazard a guess of the names of the generals?

ChristopherPerrien
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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 21 Jul 2007 21:11

From the article:

Between 1942 and 1945, a section of SIS - known as MI19 - secretly recorded no fewer than 64,427 conversations between captured German generals and other senior officers, all without their knowledge or even suspicion. The 167 most significant of these are about to be published for the first time.


I bet I could hang anything on anybody, and their mother too, if I used 167 out 64,427 conversations. Such relevations only seem amazing , to the uniformed, when put extremely out of the context that such conversations were made, and totally ignoring the statistical "insignificance" of the amount of evidence. Considering the fewness of the damning conversations and the post-war circumstances in which they made , a better "statistical" arguement could be made that most didn't know or more accurately , were not interested enough to know or care.

Nice to see :roll: this worn-out line of self-hating German liberal arts college tripe is still being spewed out and profited on by such people as Sonde Nietzel. If I see it,I'll read the intro by Kershaw and see how far he is in the boat too.

Chris
Last edited by ChristopherPerrien on 21 Jul 2007 21:21, edited 1 time in total.

tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 21 Jul 2007 21:15

Hitler briefs his generals. New secret recordings prove their claims they knew nothing about the Holocaust were false


Oh yawn........................

Yes, everyone knew everything and everyone agreed and everyone took part.....and...and...and...............

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Post by Ship of Fools » 21 Jul 2007 21:30

Just googling this I found an article concerning this from the Observer on David Irving's website, which I will post below.

I also found this page, which claims that there will be a PDF shortly on the same subject. I am not sure if this is a new page or not. If it is an old page it might be a promise never fulfilled or it is a recent page perhaps he is just spurred on by the publicity to put his own take on it up to benefit from the publicity of the issue.

For those interested here is the link
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Overheard/index.html

Here is the 2001 Observer article

London, Sunday, May 20, 2001


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


British Bugged German POW's -- Reveals Knowledge of Holocaust Widespread.

Jail small talk reveals Holocaust guilt

Banter between Nazi PoWs shows how much they knew about the death camps, reports Ed Vulliamy



They joked about Jewish women being sent to the gas chambers, or about taking 'pot shots' at Jews after a dinner party. Others cursed their Führer and described his inner circle as 'a loony bin'. They -- also lamented the fact that there would be no faithful wives or virgins left in Germany when they returned to their ravaged Fatherland.

These are the authentic voices of soldiers of the Third Reich: not as we are used to hearing them -- in memoirs or on trial -- but gossiping and chatting among themselves, in what must be the most remarkable bugging operation ever mounted by British intelligence.

Conversations among Nazi prisoners were secretly rec-orded by the Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre (UK), circulated to various intelligence agencies, including MI19 at the War Office, and then sent to Washington. The transcripts are now among a mass of CIA documents just declassified by the US National Archive, excavated by the American war crimes historian, Peter Maguire, and passed exclusively to The Observer .

When the documents were declassified a fortnight ago under the 1998 Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act, the mainstream American newspapers headed straight for a single headline-grabbing doctor's report [Prof. Sauerbruch] on Hitler's mental health, saying he was 'the craziest criminal the world ever knew'.

'We kind of knew that,' says Maguire, who had different motives for examining the documents, after the publication last month of his book Law and War, about the secret release of convicted Nazi war criminals under pressure from the US government.
He says: 'I was anxious to see if there was further evidence that the US had continued to recruit convicted Nazi war criminals for Cold War espionage during the Fifties. I wasn't even looking for World War II documents, and what I found bit me in the ass.'

Among the tens of thousands of pages, Maguire opened a Pandora's Box of vernacular conversation of a kind that has never been heard or read before.

Apart from their idiosyncrasies, the documents' historical importance lies in the extent to which knowledge of mass extermination was widespread, despite claims at repeated trials by leading figures of ignorance at what was happening in Auschwitz and Dachau. This affirmation cuts to the core of Daniel Goldhagen's classic book, Hitler's Willing Executioners .

On a tape recording from 22 April 1945, Vice-Admiral Utke asks the Commander of the Reich's North Sea fleet, Admiral Engel: 'Do you believe these stories about the camps?'

'Yes of course!' replies Engel. 'I've known myself for a long time it was like that. We were at Posen when that man [Himmler] told us how he killed the Jews. I can well remember how he said: "When I'm asked did you kill children as well? I can only reply I am not such a coward that I leave to my children a job which I can do myself".'
Engel concludes: 'Belsen and Buchenwald were no surprise to me.' Utke says: 'They are to me.' The admiral continues: 'But the average German knows it's like that. Haven't you heard about how the concentration camps were from the outside?... How the people had to run past the Standartenführer... It was the utter limit. Then we're surprised when the people here reproach us for it.'

The admiral recalls a remark by an SS colleague in a camp: 'Greiser told me: "Do you know that the coffee you're drinking cost me 32,000 Jewish women?!"' Utke asks: 'Where did they go?' The transcript continues: 'Engel: Where? To the incinerators probably (Laughs)'.

Some of the chatter recalls specific incidents in a conversational way never heard before. Lieutenant Heydte tells a story about a dinner party given by an SS friend called Böselager, after which the guests then 'drove out in a car and -- it sounds like a fairy tale but it's a fact -- shotguns were lying about and 30 Polish Jews were standing there. Each guest was given a gun; the Jews were driven past and every one was allowed to have a pot shot at a Jew'.

Others, like Lieutenant-General Kittel taped in late 1944, are apparently uneasy about some of things done their name or on their own orders, even though he believes that the Jews are the 'pest of the East' who should have been 'driven into one area'.

'In Upper Silesia,' says Kittel, 'they simply slaughtered people systematically. They were gassed in a big ball.'

But on another tape he describes in detail the mass execution of Jewish women and children in Latvia and elsewhere in the USSR. 'Everybody. Horrible!', he says. A Major-General Von Felbert asks: 'Were they loaded on to trains?' Kittel replies: 'If only they had been loaded into trains! The things I've experienced! In Latvia... along they came again -- men, women and children -- they were counted off and stripped naked; the executioners first laid all the clothes in one pile. Then 20 women had to take up their position -- naked -- on the edge of the trench, they were shot and fell down into it.'

Felbert asks: 'What did they do to the children?' The transcript reads: 'Kittel: (very excited): "They seized three-year-old children by the hair, held them up and shot them with a pistol and threw them in. I saw that for myself".'

On another tape, Kittel says: 'By the way, I'm going to hold my tongue about what I do know about these things.'

The British are in turn coy about their means of extracting this material. One transcript carries the note: 'If the information in this report is required for further distribution, prisoners' names should not be mentioned and the text paraphrased as to give no indication of the methods by which it was obtained.'

Maguire says: 'The British interrogators were much more sophisticated than the Americans. They would win their prisoners' trust with small gestures, good food' -- a point borne out by conversations between the Germans. 'I wonder how many of these officers thought they had kept a stiff upper lip under interrogation, only to have their private conversations taped! As evidence it's problematic because of the method, but as testimony it's remarkable -- moral guilt is not the same as legal guilt.'

The most senior prisoner taped is General von Thoma, one of Rommel's commanders in the Afrika Korps captured in 1942.

Between 18 and 19 May 1945, Thoma converses with the taped prisoner closest to Hitler's inner circle, Lt-Gen Kurt Dittmar. They discuss the Nazi high command: 'It must have been absolute torture for you,' chides Thoma, 'I always used to say: "Good old Dittmar, you can tell what he's feeling by the difficulty he has in getting his words out"... It seems to have become a loony-bin on wheels.'

Dittmar agrees, and goes on to talk about Josef Goebbels: 'Goebbels was... deliberately telling lies. His most intimate circle lied to him...'

But genuine disillusion runs deep among some officers. Lieutenant-General Schaefer laments, in November 1944, that 'one might think no one was really no longer bound to the Führer... I mean, when one goes over all the crimes committed, it makes one's hair stand on end... One can only think that if Germany is destroyed, it is justice and nothing else.'

In one conversation, the Germans wonder what has happened to their womenfolk. 'The ones [of us] who are married,' says one, 'can be quite certain that their wives have had relations with someone else, and those who are single are not likely to find a virgin over the age of 18 when they get home.'


Note that the Posen speech of Himmler gets an oblique reference - although not the actual speech itself.

Is there really a German name Böselager, it looks like a pun. There also seems to be what might be a reference to the shootings in Liepaja, although it might be anywhere in Latvia.

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Post by Andreas » 21 Jul 2007 21:31

ChristopherPerrien wrote:Nice to see :roll: this worn-out line of self-hating German liberal arts college tripe is still being spewed out and profited on by such people as Sonde Nietzel. If I see it,I'll read the intro by Kershaw and see how far he is in the boat too.

Chris


Söhnke Neitzel is professor for recent history at University of Mainz. I suggest you equate yourself with his work before you start baseless opinionating about it, since you are quite obviously not well-informed enough to come up with a reasonable judgment.

All the best

Andreas

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Post by Ship of Fools » 21 Jul 2007 21:33

Just a quick additional. I dont understand this quote

The admiral recalls a remark by an SS colleague in a camp: 'Greiser told me: "Do you know that the coffee you're drinking cost me 32,000 Jewish women?!"' Utke asks: 'Where did they go?' The transcript continues: 'Engel: Where? To the incinerators probably (Laughs)'.


Is that a reference to the Joel Brand Jews for Coffee, Sugar and Trucks offer? It seems meaningless to me.

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Post by Andreas » 21 Jul 2007 21:33

tonyh wrote:
Hitler briefs his generals. New secret recordings prove their claims they knew nothing about the Holocaust were false


Oh yawn........................

Yes, everyone knew everything and everyone agreed and everyone took part.....and...and...and...............


Do you have anything of substance to add tony, or are just wasting bandwith?

Ship of Fools - Boeselager is a German name. They had at least two officers in the Wehrmacht, one of them is still alive, or was last year. You can do a forum search to find out more about them.

All the best

Andreas

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Post by Ship of Fools » 21 Jul 2007 21:39

Andreas, so I see.

Although I doubt that these two Boeselagers were involved in after dinner shooting of Jews (being members for those not as well informed as Andreas of the July 20 plot)

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 21 Jul 2007 21:44

I hadn't read the article you quoted. I agree, that appears highly unlikely.

viewtopic.php?t=50243

All the best

Andreas

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 21 Jul 2007 21:44

Ship of Fools: -- You remarked:
Is that a reference to the Joel Brand Jews for Coffee, Sugar and Trucks offer? It seems meaningless to me.

Our readers come here for information. Please source your references. Our readers are probably familiar, from past threads, about Joel Brand's proposed truck deal to save the lives of Hungarian Jews. However, war crimes are not a subject for joking. If you have no sources for your remark about sugar and coffee, avoid making it.

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Post by Ship of Fools » 21 Jul 2007 21:50

David Thompson, might understanding is that the amorphous offer actually did include coffee, tea and sugar. The trucks tend to stick out as that would be a dividing point between the Soviets and the Allies, coffee having less strategic value

As a source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Brand
Brand teamed up with fellow Zionists in Hungary, in or around 1942, to form the Aid and Rescue Committee, a small group dedicated to helping Jewish refugees in Nazi-occupied Europe escape to the relative safety of Hungary, before the German invasion of that country in March 1944.

Shortly after the invasion, Brand was asked by SS officer Adolf Eichmann to help broker a deal between the SS and the United States or Britain. Eichmann told Brand that he was prepared to release up to one million Hungarian Jews,[2][3] who were otherwise destined for Auschwitz, if the Western Allies would supply Germany with 10,000 trucks, and large quantities of soap, tea, and coffee.


I dont think the recorded conversation about 32 0000 Jews for coffee is in reference to this, but it just doesnt make sense to me at all.

ChristopherPerrien
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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 21 Jul 2007 23:14

Andreas wrote:
ChristopherPerrien wrote:Nice to see :roll: this worn-out line of self-hating German liberal arts college tripe is still being spewed out and profited on by such people as Sonde Nietzel. If I see it,I'll read the intro by Kershaw and see how far he is in the boat too.

Chris


Söhnke Neitzel is professor for recent history at University of Mainz. I suggest you equate yourself with his work before you start baseless opinionating about it, since you are quite obviously not well-informed enough to come up with a reasonable judgment.

All the best

Andreas


Your comment is noted.

Obviously I can't be that informed on his work since his book has not been released. Obviously this book is being pushed ,already, by some "media interests?" as a confirmation for the old line of "collective responsibility", which IIRC is not something this forum is too keen on by rules.

We will see , I'll look for the book when it comes out, if it proves that this is not the main thrust of his book and just some chapter of it that book reviewers are harping on just because of their own biasness, I"ll retract my "gut reaction" comments about the gist of this topic and this "soon to be released book". Perhaps it is just the biasness of the reviews that has irked me. Pr. Neitzel may well be neutral on the subject.

Chris

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Post by David Thompson » 22 Jul 2007 00:43

Thanks, Ship of Fools, for the source.

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