Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France)

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Panzermahn
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France

Post by Panzermahn » 13 Jul 2011 13:33

I don't doubt that the massacre happens but don't you think it is perplexing that everytime the Germans took reprisals against civilians for some real or perceived illegal warfare by franc-tireurs, only the story about the German reprisals and massacre are well-known but it is always the case that it is it not known about the franc-tireurs who shot at the Germans.

For example, in Tulle and Oradour, it was the murder and mutilation of German troops and medical personnel (according to Otto Weidinger) as well as the terroristic kidnap and execution of SS Sturmbahnführer Helmut Kampfe that lead to the reprisals respectively in those locations.

The fact that the association of veterans of resistance in France never publicly stated what happened to those German soldiers they kidnapped and thus never heard again shows that the bad faith they has in concealing the truth on why the Germans committed such massacre against French civilians.

In France, the Germans never took reprisals action against civilians without any any reason unless they perceived some sort of terroristic warfare by franc-tireurs which were inflicted upon the Germans which the former considered illegal according to international law.

In the links provided above, it was said two person hide from Church and took pot-shots against the Germans. Who were these two persons? Are they legal combatants according to the Hague Convention 1899?

I have Max Hastings book on Das Reich and this incident wasn't mentioned at all.

There are always two faces of the same coin. The study of German reprisals in France during WW2 would never be complete without further examination of the cause that provoked these reprisals.

PFLB
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France

Post by PFLB » 13 Jul 2011 14:31

So what is your argument, that participation in hostilities as a francs-tireur is to be equated with the slaughter and destruction of whole communities?

Panzermahn
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France

Post by Panzermahn » 13 Jul 2011 14:47

PFLB wrote:So what is your argument, that participation in hostilities as a francs-tireur is to be equated with the slaughter and destruction of whole communities?
The argument would be that these franc-tireur knew that they were involved in shooting against the Germans as illegal combatants and the most likely they know about the dreaded consequences that would befall towards the innocent French civilians. It shows bad faith on their part knowing the pot-shots they took against the Germans indirectly resulting in the death of French civilians

Just like the premeditated murder of Reinhard Heydrich in 1942. The British planners and Czech assassins of Operation Anthropoid knew that their plan would indirectly result in the death of Czech civilians. But yet they still went for it without any considerations for the lives of Czech civilians since the latter were considered small "pawns' in the grand strategy of the former's "set Europe ablaze" policy

Compare this with the actions of Norwegian resistance who attacked the Norsk Hydro Heavy Water Plant in 1942-44. The Germans knew that the Norwegian resistance was attempting to sabotage the German nuclear effort and not barbarically murder German soldiers and officers which is why mass reprisal shootings did not happen in Norway against Norwegian civilians at the scale of those like in Oradour-sur-Glane, France

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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France

Post by PATRICK CHARRON » 13 Jul 2011 21:33

Hello,

What is true is that for the majority of the operations of reprisals of the Das Reich in France, those followed actions of the Resistance.
About Resistance and especially in Limousin, I agree they are not very talkative on their own exactions, particularly the schooting of German prisoners.
Personally, as I said it in another topic
I make a difference between the reprisals taken to hot after an attack of the Resistance as to Tulle and the massacre of women and children as in Oradour.
In Marsoulas; the action of two young resistants entailed some reprisals against women and children, not by throws of granates or bombardments from afar but by shootings to view. There is the testimony of an Alsatian SS that tells how one NCO killed a baby in cold blood in his cradle.
One of the two resistant 16 years old survived the war. Was he conscious of the risks that he made carry on the villagers?
I must recall that Weidinger, in his denials doesn't care of the statement before the German justice of Otto Kahn and the testimony of Lammerding on their recognition that Oradour is a war crime.

Patrick

Michael Kenny
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Jul 2011 21:36

Panzermahn wrote: For example, in Tulle and Oradour, it was the murder and mutilation of German troops and medical personnel (according to Otto Weidinger) as well as the terroristic kidnap and execution of SS Sturmbahnführer Helmut Kampfe that lead to the reprisals respectively in those locations.
Well if Weidenger says so then it must be true,
What reason would he have to lie?

Panzermahn
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France

Post by Panzermahn » 14 Jul 2011 05:52

I agreed that the Das Reich has gone overboard in exacting reprisals actions against French civilians where women and children were killed. But consider their situation they were in at that time. Das Reich is a well-trained and heavily armed panzer division trained for military combat. The resistance were trying to buy some time for the Allies by delaying the Das Reich division on the way to the Normandy beachhead using tactics such as harassment, kidnapping and murder against individual or small groups of German soldiers and then they easily could blend it back to the society. What could the Germans do against such "invisible" terrorists so as to protect the safety of their officers men whom they need all manpower to face the Allied military forces in Normandy?

I don't think Otto Weidinger denied that the Germans killed civilians in France. Weidinger admitted the German atrocities in Tulle and Oradour and he mentioned that it was Franco-German tragedy. Some people may fight distasteful that Weidinger was seen trying to justify the actions of the Das Reich in France (which could be very well the case in order to protect the reputation of his unit and men) but consider the circumstances that Weidinger was there (many of us are not) and what he could do and say was based upon what he seen or know from his own eyes.
Well if Weidenger says so then it must be true,
What reason would he have to lie?
Weidinger was there and you were not?

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Urmel
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France

Post by Urmel » 14 Jul 2011 11:09

Panzermahn wrote:I don't doubt that the massacre happens but don't you think it is perplexing that everytime the Germans took reprisals against civilians for some real or perceived illegal warfare by franc-tireurs, only the story about the German reprisals and massacre are well-known but it is always the case that it is it not known about the franc-tireurs who shot at the Germans.
You really should study the links that have been provided.

Oh, and cute to equate the Marquisards with terrorists. :roll:
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Michael Kenny
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Jul 2011 15:18

JBond wrote: cute to equate the Marquisards with terrorists.
Maybe some of the French 'terrorists' were from North Africa?
Perhaps Moslems?
If so perhaps would this be the first engagement between a proto-al qaeda and the embyonic NATO (born from the SS European volunteer army).
Those blonde Christian Knights of the SS were certainly well ahead of their time!

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Urmel
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France

Post by Urmel » 14 Jul 2011 15:57

You're either with them or against them. :D
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France

Post by David Thompson » 15 Jul 2011 01:48

Let's get back on topic.

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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France

Post by PATRICK CHARRON » 15 Jul 2011 12:26

Hello,
The other topic I refer
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=58641

The 10/II SS Pz. Gr 3 Regt was engaged with 9,10,11 and 12 companies in a sweep operation under the command of Stubaf Helmut Schreiber ordered by the 58th Reserve Panzer General Walter Krüger. The battalion was under command of Hauptverbindungstab 564 based in Toulouse. The Ostubaf Friedrich Suhr Sipo SD Toulouse was present at the staff meeting in Toulouse and at least one man from SD was by each company.
The operation concerned the following villages,Saint Martory, Cazères, Saintre Croix, Saint Girons.
The maquis targeted by the operation of the 10th company was Betchat led by Jean Blasco aka Captain Max, a FTP group.
It should be noted that Friedrich Suhr as his colleague August MEIER Chief of Sipo SD Limoges are both former Einsatzgruppen's leaders.
Furthermore we see the collaboration in all anti-partisans operations of the Das Reich and Sipo SD.

Regards
Patrick

jean pierre
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France)

Post by jean pierre » 03 May 2019 16:02

Hello,
about Marsoulas, I recommend this book of testimonials :


Image

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France)

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 03 May 2019 19:54

Oradour, Tulle, Marsoulas were not the only one villages to have suffered from the barbarian behavior of the Das Reich SS.

Between the 10th and the 12th june of 1944 at least 3 other villages were slaughtered : Bagnères-de-Bigorre, Pouzac and Trébons...
57 deads in all, 32 for Bagnères... women, children, babies...

Concerning Marsoulas, the SS wanted to go to Betchat, a village full of Résistants. Marsoulas was on the road to Betchat.
In Marsoulas, the Résistants had put 2 armed scouts : one alsacian man in his thirties named Camille Weinberg and Jean-Marie Manens a young boy of 16 yo nicknamed "Espérance". They were posted on the roof and in the bell tower of the church. When they saw a german truck coming, they decided to shoot at it and grenade it. 8 SS fell. It was their duty : they were there to prevent and to warn any attempt to reach Betchat.
But what the 2 men didnt realize was that many more Germans were coming...
In the battle, the alsacian was shot while the young one, wounded, succeeded to hide in the church. When he reached Betchat, 2 days later, he was celebrated as a hero because his actions saved the village and the Résistanst from a massacre. But 28 people were killed in Marsoulas.

No SS was ever charged or trialed for the horrible massacre. Such a shame.

See there, use google translate http://museedelaresistanceenligne.org/m ... -juin-1944

A photo of Marsoulas and its church :
2914-767x541.jpg
The Barbe's twins, Claude and Michel Barbe, savagely killed by the SS. Her mother left them in the village, thinking they were safer there than in Toulouse. They were 5 yo :
4-les-jumeaux-Barbe-663x1024.jpg
The day after, the 11th june, around Betchat, the SS murdered 27 more people in the villages of Mazères, St Martory and Cazères. Other massacre happened in the area : Bagnères, Montgaillard... Roquefort, Boussens, Martres and Salies...
See there http://aspetinf.chez.com/assoc/Marsoulas_ChapitreB1.htm

Continuing their road to Toulouse, the SS stopped at Saint Lys where they murdered 12 more people.
See there http://francoisverdier-liberationsud.fr ... marsoulas/

In Saint Lys they murdered the whole family Lécharpe in its farm :
maquis-3.jpg
Take a look there https://bonrepos-sur-aussonnelle.fr/la- ... saint-lys/
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jean pierre
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France)

Post by jean pierre » 10 May 2019 08:18

thank you David Frankenberg
for this very interesting supplement!

history1
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Re: Das Reich division and the massacre of Marsoulas (France)

Post by history1 » 11 May 2019 13:27

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
03 May 2019 19:54
[...] When they saw a german truck coming, they decided to shoot at it and grenade it. 8 SS fell. It was their duty [...]
It was their duty to be partisans = unlawful fighters and to murder lawful fighters = ss men?
I assume murder was prohibited by law already at that time.
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
03 May 2019 19:54
No SS was ever charged or trialed for the horrible massacre. Such a shame.
No partisan either. It´s laughable to join illegal/unlawful forces and to complain about the outcome later. Neither was it legal to support such illegal fighters.

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