Leningrad siege War crimes or not?

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Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 03 Oct 2007 14:10

Maybe you would like to enlighten the readers of the forum about what exactly you meant by 'alleged existence'?

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Ship of Fools
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Post by Ship of Fools » 03 Oct 2007 14:16

Oh, personally I have no doubt the order is not genuine.

It was far too politically convenient for the Soviets to sheet home responsibility for the tragedy of Leningrad while ignoring their own culpability to be genuine.

That, however, is speculation and as such not normally within the scope of this forum.

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Post by Andreas » 03 Oct 2007 14:36

Ship of Fools wrote:Oh, personally I have no doubt the order is not genuine.
Well, unless I misunderstand you, my point then stands. Your idea that the order is not genuine is without basis in reality.

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Post by Ship of Fools » 03 Oct 2007 14:39

Your idea that the order is not genuine is without basis in reality.
I appreciate you sharing your opinion.

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LWD
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Post by LWD » 03 Oct 2007 15:18

Ship of Fools wrote:
Your idea that the order is not genuine is without basis in reality.
I appreciate you sharing your opinion.
There is ample evidence, even with in this thread, for a rational individual to come to the informed opinion that the order was genuine. The contrary opinion has not been supported by fact or logic. Note that just because something is convienint doesn't mean that it isn't genuine. Furthermore the Soviets were trumpeting the heroic nature of the defence of Lenningrad they why would they need this to justify their actions.

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Fern
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Post by Fern » 03 Oct 2007 15:44

David Thompson wrote:An off-topic post from Eckart, which did not discuss the topic but contained comments about another poster, was deleted by the moderator pursuant to the forum and section rules -- DT.

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962
There is also this rule:
No insults are tolerated (that includes serious NATIONAL and religious insults)

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Eckart
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Post by Eckart » 03 Oct 2007 16:07

That is Fern, and it seems in this forum the rules are not the same for everyone.
Helly Angel wrote:We are not racist as you country is, we have not nazis here as Spain and we don´t greets with the arm with a "Viva Franco!"
Respect and attittude.

Saludos.

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Post by David Thompson » 03 Oct 2007 16:57

The passages in the post at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 61#1120361 have been edited to comply with the forum and section rules.

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 04 Oct 2007 09:11

Ship of Fools wrote:
Your idea that the order is not genuine is without basis in reality.
I appreciate you sharing your opinion.
It is not an opinion, it is a factual statement. The evidence for the existence of the document is:

Entry KTB/WFSt I p. 696, document appended p.1070
Leeb diary entry 12 October quoted in "Tagebuchaufzeichnungen und Notizen aus zwei Weltkriegen"
The entry in KTB HGr Nord from 24 October 0700 on the visit of HGr Nord Ia to 18. Armee, containing a long discussion of corrosive effects of the order on troop discipline and difficulties enforcing it. Further evidence is a conversation between Leeb and Hitler on the phone which was overheard by one of his staff officers, in which Hitler reiterated the order, and Leeb pointed out that the German soldier might be expected to do this once (fire on women, children, elderly), but not more, and that it would have serious effects on morale.

All this can be read up on in "Tagebuchaufzeichnungen und Notizen aus zwei Weltkriegen".

The document is listed as C-123 Jodl Order on capitulation of Leningrad, 7 October 1941 VI 929 Exhibit Number USSR-114 in the Nuremberg prosecution files: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/d ... part05.htm

The defense of Jodl also discusses the document, and does not raise any doubts about its authenticity.
(4) The order regarding Leningrad-Document C-123. By letter of 7 October 1941 Jodl notified the Commander-in-Chief of the Army-and it is nothing but a notification-that Hitler had repeated an already previously issued order to the effect that an offer of capitulation was not to be accepted from either Leningrad or Moscow.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/07-19-46.htm

Apparently the Halder diary also contains a reference to this, but unfortunately it is not in my abridged version (English translation in one volume).

Opposed to that evidence we have some wild speculation on your part, which assumes that because it was convenient (in your opinion) to the Soviets, it must be fact. I am happy to leave the readers of this forum to come to their own conclusions based on the evidence presented.

The text based on the Nuremberg file reads as:
The Fuehrer has again decided that a capitulation of Leningrad or, later, of Moscow is not to be accepted even if it is offered by the enemy." [...]

"Therefore, no German soldier is to enter these cities. By our fire we must force all who try to leave the city through our lines to turn back. The exodus of the population through the smaller, unguarded gaps toward the interior of Russia is only to be welcomed. Before the cities are taken, they are to be weakened by artillery fire and air attacks, and their population should be caused to flee.

"We cannot take the responsibility of endangering our soldiers' lives in order to save Russian cities from fire, nor that of feeding the population of these cities at the expense of the German homeland....

"All commanding officers shall be informed of this will of the Fuehrer."
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/02-22-46.htm

The relevant diary entries, both in KTB Heeresgruppe Nord and in Leeb's personal diary, which the Soviets presumably never had access to since Leeb went into US captivity are proof that the order was circulated to the commanding officers whom it concerned, and that it existed.

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Andreas

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Post by David Thompson » 04 Oct 2007 10:55

Pursuant to my post at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 97#1121997 and the suggestion of my fellow moderator Juha Tompuri, the portion of the discussion on the role of the Finnish armed forces has been merged with the "Finland and the siege of Leningrad" thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57382

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Post by David Thompson » 04 Oct 2007 11:14

Ship of Fools wrote (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 43#1122343 ):
The alleged existence of secret orders produced at Nuremberg is irrelevant in regards Soviet decision making
To the extent that this statement suggests that the existence of Hitler's order to level Leningrad is still at the level of an allegation rather than a well-established fact, it is mistaken. In addition to the references given by Andreas, above, see also the "raze Leningrad" chronology beginning at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 121#595121 , given previously in this thread (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 83#1118283 ).

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Post by Eckart » 05 Oct 2007 00:42

Helly Angel wrote:
Fern wrote:
Helly Angel wrote:To Spain the spanish soldiers were the better. In the last documents of Bormann he wrote the opinion of HItler about the spanish people and is not good.
Spanish soldiers are naughty. They look at their rifles as things which don't have to be cleaned. Their sentries doesn't exist. They don't take the sentry post or slept while on them. When Russians attack, the Russian population must wake them up. However Spaniards have never lost an inch of ground. It is hard to imagine people more courageous than Spaniards. They don't take cover. They make fun of death. I know that our men are happy when Spaniards are in a neighbor sector. Nothing as changed in 100 years, they are extraordinarily brave, though in front of hardships, but undisciplined.

Adolf Hitler

The above text has been taken (and translated too because I have the Spanish edition) from Kleinfeld, G.R. & Tambs, L, "Hitler's Spanish Legion: The Blue Division in Russia"

Please sources of these Hitler`words. Not the book where were published. The source where and where Hitler wrote this or the testimony of the people who saw this.
The original source for these Hitler’s words are the very well-known documents compiled and published as Hitler's Table Talks. The Hitler’s speech which we’re talking about was registered in Rastenburg, Führerhauptquartier, January 4, 1942, during a conversation in which Sepp Dietrich was present.*


Helly Angel wrote:The real testimony of Hitler is here:

http://www.radioislam.net/historia/hitl ... editor.htm
Obviously, that is not the “real testimony” of Hitler, it’s just another different testimony of Hitler


The user above quoted is confusing what Hitler thought (or said) about the Spanish soldiers and what Hitler thought (or said) about the real possibilities of Spain to enter and make war successfully. Two questions absolutely different. We may notice the words about the soldiers were said during the same days of the existence of the Blue Division and the words about the Spanish State were said when all was almost lost, so they could be influenced by rancor. Anyway, Hitler’s was right when thought in retrospective about Spain as a weak companion of war, just because the country was at that time (1940) in its own post-war, in an absolute lack of strength. By the way, maybe in 1945 Hitler had already forgotten his insistence and urgency to convince Franco for the war:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/spain/sp13.htm



The Blue Division (officially named Spanish Volunteers Division) had a more than notable balance and Hitler had it in a very good esteem, as lots of facts corroborate it, but since this is not the place to discuss it, in order to refuse some previous commentaries, I’ll only quote the awards received by it’s members during its two years of campaign in the North sector of the Eastern front, in the line Leningrad-Novgorod, between October 1941 and October 1943:

2 Knight Crosses (one with Oak Leaves).
2 Golden Crosses.
2.497 Iron Crosses (138 of First Class).
2.216 War Merit Crosses with Swords (16 of First Class).
The Blue Division was the sole and unique Division which had a specific and exclusive medal, made by Hitler's wish.**



* Las conversaciones privadas de Hitler, (introducción de Hugh Trevor-Roper). Crítica, S.L., Barcelona: 2004. Page 142.

**MORENO-JULIÁ, Xavier. La División Azul. Sangre española en Rusia. Editorial Planeta de Agostini, S.A., Barcelona: 2005. Page 385.


Best regards.

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Fern
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Post by Fern » 05 Oct 2007 09:25

This is not the right place for this discussion, so only a short note. German decorations were allocated to the Blue Division in batches, so Blue Division command could award them to Spanish soldiers, NCO and officers as they wish. Spanish soldiers which got them (most of the EKI went to officers rather than common soldiers) were proud of wearing them, but the REAL decorations were the Spanish ones. Several Laureadas de San Fernando (the highest Spanish award to military courage, similar to the Congressional medal of Honor) and lots of Medallas Militares Individuales (the next one in the ranking) were awarded. For example the II/269 Battalion got 2 Laureadas (both posthumously awarded, 2nd Lieutenat Rubio Moscoso, defender of the "Posición Intermedia" and Captain Masip Biendicho during a battle near Lake Ladoga, he commanded his company during terrible Soviet attacks with great courage despite beign wounded for three times, refusing to withdraw and be relieved until a 4th wound killed him) and 8 Medallas Militares Individuales (Battalion commander Major Román Garrido, 2nd Lt. Escobedo Ruiz, 1st Lt. Baigorri Juarrero, Private Martínez López, Sargent Delgado González, Captain Patiño Montes, 1st Lt. Martín Castro and Captain Vera Fernández).

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Post by Ship of Fools » 07 Oct 2007 15:38

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/07-19-46.htm

Apparently the Halder diary also contains a reference to this, but unfortunately it is not in my abridged version (English translation in one volume).

Opposed to that evidence we have some wild speculation on your part, which assumes that because it was convenient (in your opinion) to the Soviets, it must be fact. I am happy to leave the readers of this forum to come to their own conclusions based on the evidence presented.
Also I was basing it on the fact that the order was
a. nonsensical in terms of war priorities
b. not borne out in terms of actual German or Finnish actions.


From the alleged secret order uncovered by the noble nuremberg investigators.

"It is proposed to approach near to the city and to destroy it with the aid of an artillery barrage from weapons of different calibers and with long air attacks.... "

The idea of destroying a city and a population by artillery fire rather than accept a capitulation would be such an insane misuse of munitions and war resources at a time when the army leadership knew that the Soviet invasion was no walkover but game on. It is doubtful than even Hitler would issue such an insane order rather than accept a capitulation and use the newly developed "Special Handling" procedures of hooking up an exhaust pipe from a diesel powered T34 tank on the population.

On the other hand I can well believe that the army and hitler would realise they could not feed the 4 million plus population in light of stalin's destruction of the captive nationalities' agricultural sector.

If one assumes that wikipedia as it correct
On September 8, the last land connection to the besieged city was severed when the Germans reached Lake Ladoga at Orekhovets. Bombing on September 8 caused 178 fires. In early October, the Germans refused to assault the city and Hitler's directive on October 7, signed by Alfred Jodl was a reminder not to accept capitulation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

I suspect that Hitler and the Finns took the military rationale move of holding Leningrad in a pocket and allowing a trickle of supplies via the Lake Lagoda and the Winter Road but in the absence of tanks and motorised artillery of no capacity to perform offensive operations rather than a militarily expensive assault and a resultant increase of civilian population that due to Communist sabotage they could not hope to feed.

Alternatively possibly Hitler did issue a militarily insane order of using aircraft and artillery to flatten a city from a distance and Wehrmacht ignored or sabotaged this order.

That is a scenario I deem unlikely however. Whatever the case, the German Army DID stand back from active operations of a contained pocket and the German Army and the Finns DID allow a lifeline of supplies to exist.

I suspect that this also would have been the thrust of the original Hitler order. Not something that the Soviet leadership would want to inform the people of Leningrad of.

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Post by David Thompson » 07 Oct 2007 16:02

Ship of Fools -- You wrote:

(1)
The idea of destroying a city and a population by artillery fire rather than accept a capitulation would be such an insane misuse of munitions and war resources at a time when the army leadership knew that the Soviet invasion was no walkover but game on.

Some observations:

(a) There's no shortage of demented Fuehrer orders in the history of WWII in Europe.

(b) There's no shortage of examples of Hitler ignoring the practical advice of his generals.

(c) The plan to level Leningrad predated the "time when the army leadership knew that the Soviet invasion was no walkover but game on." See the discussion of the "raze Leningrad" chronology beginning at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 121#595121

(2)
It is doubtful than even Hitler would issue such an insane order rather than accept a capitulation and use the newly developed "Special Handling" procedures of hooking up an exhaust pipe from a diesel powered T34 tank on the population.
(a) The order is well-documented (see the posts and links above), and your argument has not explained how or why the documentation is all fraudulent ("the alleged secret order uncovered by the noble nuremberg investigators.").

(b) What is the source for your off-topic reference to a supposed "newly developed "Special Handling" procedures of hooking up an exhaust pipe from a diesel powered T34 tank on the population"? (emphasis added; interested readers are invited to review Roberto's post on the supposed use of diesel engines for homicidal gassing in the "Apologia for Genocide" thread at:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 264#228264 )

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