Leningrad siege War crimes or not?

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snpol
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Re: Leningrad siege War crimes or not?

Post by snpol » 05 Jan 2023 17:53

wm wrote:
05 Jan 2023 12:30
To declare the Leningrad siege a war crime, a written or unwritten rule is needed that says so.
As I understand Russian court established that starvation of civilian population was a part of the strategy, that it was intentional. First of all, German government should be blamed. However, the Finnish government also was responsible, apparently in much lesser degree. I suppose that the Finnish government was well aware about the main idea of the siege (the starvation of civilian population).

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wm
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Re: Leningrad siege War crimes or not?

Post by wm » 05 Jan 2023 18:21

I don't know of any rule that forbade starvation during sieges pre-1949.
As recently as World War II, it was still understood that a belligerent could lay siege to a place and drive fleeing civilians back to areas controlled by the enemy in order to put pressure on available food and other resources.
Indeed, in the so-called High Command Case, a US post-war military commission acquitted Field Marshall Wilhelm von Leeb for his role in the brutal siege of Leningrad (September 1941–January 27, 1944) on this rationale. The opinion states:

A belligerent commander may lawfully lay siege to a place controlled by the enemy and endeavor by a process of isolation to cause its surrender. The propriety of attempting to reduce it by starvation is not questioned. Hence the cutting off every source of sustenance from without is deemed legitimate.

The judges concluded, “We might wish the law were otherwise, but we must administer it as we find it.”

Seppo Koivisto
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Re: Leningrad siege War crimes or not?

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 06 Jan 2023 14:54

snpol wrote:
05 Jan 2023 17:53
As I understand Russian court established that starvation of civilian population was a part of the strategy, that it was intentional. First of all, German government should be blamed. However, the Finnish government also was responsible, apparently in much lesser degree. I suppose that the Finnish government was well aware about the main idea of the siege (the starvation of civilian population).
We all know it was a kangaroo court to defend Russian war crimes in Ukraine. Of course saying so would be illegal in Russia.

The civilian population of Leningrad was the responsibility of the Soviet Union only. If the mortality of the Jewish population was higher than other groups, then it could be a genocide.

snpol
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Re: Leningrad siege War crimes or not?

Post by snpol » 09 Jan 2023 18:22

Seppo Koivisto wrote:
06 Jan 2023 14:54
snpol wrote:
05 Jan 2023 17:53
As I understand Russian court established that starvation of civilian population was a part of the strategy, that it was intentional. First of all, German government should be blamed. However, the Finnish government also was responsible, apparently in much lesser degree. I suppose that the Finnish government was well aware about the main idea of the siege (the starvation of civilian population).
We all know it was a kangaroo court to defend Russian war crimes in Ukraine. Of course saying so would be illegal in Russia.
Dear mr.Koivisto, you again try to provoke me to discuss current events. I have much to say in this context but I could be banned and further discussion would be impossible.
I would like to make some abstract remarks.
- number of allegations about war crimes as a rule is much higher than their real number. It's a common situation.
- false reports about war crimes including intentional ones sometimes with horrible details are not rare.
- there is a universal principle - innocent until proven guilty.
- national courts frequently don't prosecute war crimes committed by own nationals or punishment is symbolic.
Seppo Koivisto wrote:
06 Jan 2023 14:54
The civilian population of Leningrad was the responsibility of the Soviet Union only. If the mortality of the Jewish population was higher than other groups, then it could be a genocide.
This or that way, Finnish government was well aware that the objective of the siege was starvation of civilian population. As I see you don't deny it.
Jews who died from starvation in Leningrad should be regarded as victims of the Holocaust. If you agree with it then you agree that the Finnish government took part in the Holocaust.

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LWD
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Re: Leningrad siege War crimes or not?

Post by LWD » 30 Sep 2023 04:48

snpol wrote:
09 Jan 2023 18:22
...
This or that way, Finnish government was well aware that the objective of the siege was starvation of civilian population.
One of the objectives of just about any siege is the reduction of supplies including food to the point where resistance cannot be sustained. There probably was not a single country in the world that was not aware of the siege of Leningrad at the time. Being aware of it does not make one responsible for it. In no way can the Finnish government be considered to have committed a war crime. To even help would have required the permission of the Soviets. They could even have legitimately cut off Leningrad further from Moscow and it wouldn't have been a war crime.
As I see you don't deny it.
It has little relevance to the topic so even if it was deniable why bother.[/quote]
Jews who died from starvation in Leningrad should be regarded as victims of the Holocaust. [/quote]
No. Most definitely not. If their was a higher death rate among Jews than the rest of the citizens of Leningrad then the possibility of a war crime exist but it would be the Soviets that were responsible.
If you agree with it then you agree that the Finnish government took part in the Holocaust.
No. Even if I did agree that the Finns were knowledgeable about it (which I do) and that it was part of the Holocaust (which I do not) that does not by any means imply that the Finns took part in the Holocaust. I believe some have tied some of the Finns who severed under the Wehrmacht to the Holocaust but that's outside of this topic.

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