The racial features of Holocaust victims

[Voice of Truth]

An interesting anecdote, which succintly proves my point.

[David Thompson]

Voice of Truth -- You wrote:

You seem to ignore the fact that Hitler could 'Aryanise' any Jew he wished, if he was convinced that the person was not hostile and an asset to the Reich.

What are you talking about? How did Hitler 'Aryanise' Jews in the New Germany?

[Penn44]

Voice of Truth -- You wrote:

You seem to ignore the fact that Hitler could 'Aryanise' any Jew he wished, if he was convinced that the person was not hostile and an asset to the Reich.

What are you talking about? How did Hitler 'Aryanise' Jews in the New Germany?

I've made a request he provide proof and sources for his claims, but after more than a day, the Voice is silent.

Penn44

.

[ThomasG]

What are you talking about? How did Hitler 'Aryanise' Jews in the New Germany?

Bryan Martin Rigg:

Contrary to conventional views, Rigg reveals that a startlingly large number of German military men were classified by the Nazis as Jews or "partial-Jews" (Mischlinge), in the wake of racial laws first enacted in the mid-1930s. Rigg demonstrates that the actual number was much higher than previously thought--perhaps as many as 150,000 men, including decorated veterans and high-ranking officers, even generals and admirals.

As Rigg fully documents for the first time, a great many of these men did not even consider themselves Jewish and had embraced the military as a way of life and as devoted patriots eager to serve a revived German nation. In turn, they had been embraced by the Wehrmacht, which prior to Hitler had given little thought to the "race" of these men but which was now forced to look deeply into the ancestry of its soldiers.

The process of investigation and removal, however, was marred by a highly inconsistent application of Nazi law. Numerous "exemptions" were made in order to allow a soldier to stay within the ranks or to spare a soldier's parent, spouse, or other relative from incarceration or far worse. (Hitler's own signature can be found on many of these "exemption" orders.) But as the war dragged on, Nazi politics came to trump military logic, even in the face of the Wehrmacht's growing manpower needs, closing legal loopholes and making it virtually impossible for these soldiers to escape the fate of millions of other victims of the Third Reich.

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html



""Half-Jew" Commander Paul Ascher, Admiral Lütjens's first staff officer on the battleship Bismarck; Ascher received Hitler's Deutschblütigkeitserklärung. (Military awards: EKI, EKII, and War Service Cross Second Class.)"

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righitpix.html

[Penn44]

What are you talking about? How did Hitler 'Aryanise' Jews in the New Germany?

Bryan Martin Rigg:

Contrary to conventional views, Rigg reveals that a startlingly large number of German military men were classified by the Nazis as Jews or "partial-Jews" (Mischlinge), in the wake of racial laws first enacted in the mid-1930s. Rigg demonstrates that the actual number was much higher than previously thought--perhaps as many as 150,000 men, including decorated veterans and high-ranking officers, even generals and admirals.

As Rigg fully documents for the first time, a great many of these men did not even consider themselves Jewish and had embraced the military as a way of life and as devoted patriots eager to serve a revived German nation. In turn, they had been embraced by the Wehrmacht, which prior to Hitler had given little thought to the "race" of these men but which was now forced to look deeply into the ancestry of its soldiers.

The process of investigation and removal, however, was marred by a highly inconsistent application of Nazi law. Numerous "exemptions" were made in order to allow a soldier to stay within the ranks or to spare a soldier's parent, spouse, or other relative from incarceration or far worse. (Hitler's own signature can be found on many of these "exemption" orders.) But as the war dragged on, Nazi politics came to trump military logic, even in the face of the Wehrmacht's growing manpower needs, closing legal loopholes and making it virtually impossible for these soldiers to escape the fate of millions of other victims of the Third Reich.

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

Don't waste our time by clip-pasting excerpts from the publisher's writeup on the book. Can you give an example where the Germans "aryanized" a full Jew or a Mischlinge 1st degree married to a Jew?

Penn44

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[ThomasG]

Don't waste our time by clip-pasting excerpts from the publisher's writeup on the book. Can you give an example where the Germans "aryanized" a full Jew or a Mischlinge 1st degree married to a Jew?

Penn44

No. However, Paul Ascher, Werner Goldberg, Johannes Zukertort, Walter H. Hollaender, Helmut Wilberg and Erhard Milch were Mischlinge of the 1st degree (one Jewish parent) who were aryanized.

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righitpix.html

I think that this was possible because they did not belong to the Orientalid and Armenid races. Hitler hated people who looked "Jewish".

[David Thompson]

ThomasG -- I appreciate the references to decent Germans. I've got a lot of similar examples, too. But we're not talking about cases of individual Germans too humane to fall for the lethal Nazi version of anti-semitism. "Voice of Truth" is talking about Hitler and his powers to "Aryanise" Jews. My question is, what is he talking about, and who did Hitler "Aryanise"?

When a person becomes an advocate, he has the burden of providing evidence for his point of view. If he has no evidence, or doesn't provide it when asked, it is reasonable for the reader to conclude that his opinion or viewpoint is uninformed and may fairly be discounted or rejected.

Also, undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless posts and threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum. For more on this subject, see the announcement at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 676#990676

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

[Peter H]

Wilhelm Rohr,the famed German stormtroop commander from WW1,was half-Jewish.He died in 1930.However his brother Ferdinand approached Hitler about his own two sons(Wilhelm's nephews) and their desire to be "Aryanised".Hitler agreed to this in 1939 based on the outstanding WW1 combat record of their late uncle.

At best the two nephews were half-Jewish,if not quarter-Jewish.

[Penn44]

Don't waste our time by clip-pasting excerpts from the publisher's writeup on the book. Can you give an example where the Germans "aryanized" a full Jew or a Mischlinge 1st degree married to a Jew?

Penn44

No. However, Paul Ascher, Werner Goldberg, Johannes Zukertort, Walter H. Hollaender, Helmut Wilberg and Erhard Milch were Mischlinge of the 1st degree (one Jewish parent) who were aryanized.

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righitpix.html

I think that this was possible because they did not belong to the Orientalid and Armenid races. Hitler hated people who looked "Jewish".

I appreciate that you're thinking, but again, what you are offering is an opinion. Again, as you have admitted, you have no example to offer of Hitler "aryanizing" full Jews. Where any of the Mischlinge 1st degree you offered married to Jews, identified themselves as Jews, or members of Jewish organizations? Mischlinge 1st degrees who identified themselves as Jews, who were married to Jews or were members of Jewish organizations were considered Jews under Nazi law. Those Mischlinge 1st degrees who identified themselves as Aryans, were married to Aryans, and were not members of Jewish organizations were considered Aryans. They suffered under various restrictions/discriminations, but they were not considered as full "Jews." What you are thinking about is Hitler "aryanizing" these Mischlinge 1st degrees who met these requirements and removing the Mischlinge 1st degree label and all the restrictions/disciminations against them.

According to Saul Friedländer, Hitler turned down most of what relatively few requests for "aryanization" (removal of Mischling 1st degree label and the accompanying restrictions/discrimations) he received. To get your case before Hitler, one needed someone high within the Nazi hierarchy to help your case along and endorse it to Hitler.

Penn44

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[ThomasG]

ThomasG -- I appreciate the references to decent Germans. I've got a lot of similar examples, too. But we're not talking about cases of individual Germans too humane to fall for the lethal Nazi version of anti-semitism.

?
Field Marshal Erhard Milch and other people mentioned were of partially (50%) Jewish ancestry.

"Voice of Truth" is talking about Hitler and his powers to "Aryanise" Jews. My question is, what is he talking about, and who did Hitler "Aryanise"?

Rigg addresses that question. Hitler aryanized individuals of Jewish background who were able and willing to render valuable services to the Reich. It is clear that none of these people were "culturally Jewish".

[Penn44]

Rigg addresses that question. Hitler aryanized individuals of Jewish background who were able and willing to render valuable services to the Reich. It is clear that none of these people were "culturally Jewish".

What we are talking about here is a relative handful of Mischlinge who met certain criteria and who were backed by high placed Nazis whom Hitler also favored with "aryanization." These cases were extremely few and far between. "Aryanization" by Hitler was the very rare exception, and not the rule.

Present us with numbers of Mischlinge so favored with aryanization.

Penn44

[ThomasG]

Again, as you have admitted, you have no example to offer of Hitler "aryanizing" full Jews. Where any of the Mischlinge 1st degree you offered married to Jews, identified themselves as Jews, or members of Jewish organizations?

No. It would be absurd to suggest that Hitler would aryanize such people.

Mischlinge 1st degrees who identified themselves as Jews, who were married to Jews or were members of Jewish organizations were considered Jews under Nazi law. Those Mischlinge 1st degrees who identified themselves as Aryans, were married to Aryans, and were not members of Jewish organizations were considered Aryans. They suffered under various restrictions/discriminations, but they were not considered as full "Jews." What you are thinking about is Hitler "aryanizing" these Mischlinge 1st degrees who met these requirements and removing the Mischlinge 1st degree label and all the restrictions/disciminations against them.

Well, according to the Wannsee protocols this was not the case. The only exemptions were a marriage to an Aryan person if the marriage had resulted in children and aryanization by Hitler.

The self-identification/religion of the half-Jewish person was not relevant to my knowledge.
http://www.remember.org/wannsee.html

According to Saul Friedländer, Hitler turned down most of what relatively few requests for "aryanization" (removal of Mischling 1st degree label and the accompanying restrictions/discrimations) he received. To get your case before Hitler, one needed someone high within the Nazi hierarchy to help your case along and endorse it to Hitler.

Did Werner Goldberg have such friends?

[ThomasG]

Present us with numbers of Mischlinge so favored with aryanization.

I don't know the numbers but they are presumably in Rigg's book.

Does somebody have it?

In Amazon.com some person who read the book and wrote a review claims that:

"The number of Mischlinge spared from persecution by Hitler undoubtedly numbers in the thousands (p. 3)"
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-So ... 0700611789

[Penn44]

Present us with numbers of Mischlinge so favored with aryanization.

I don't know the numbers but they are presumably in Rigg's book.

Does somebody have it?

In Amazon.com some person who read the book and wrote a review claims that:

"The number of Mischlinge spared from persecution by Hitler undoubtedly numbers in the thousands (p. 3)"
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-So ... 0700611789

I suspected you hadn't read the book you were referencing. Be more up front and admit such things.

There is a difference between "aryanization" and waivers for participation in certain professions, activities, or organizations barred to Mischlinge.

Penn44

.

[Penn44]

The self-identification/religion of the half-Jewish person was not relevant to my knowledge.
http://www.remember.org/wannsee.html

You need to study up on German race laws of the period, and you would know that self-indentification was one of the criteria. It is real hard to discuss this topic unless you have some understanding about it.

According to Saul Friedländer, Hitler turned down most of what relatively few requests for "aryanization" (removal of Mischling 1st degree label and the accompanying restrictions/discrimations) he received. To get your case before Hitler, one needed someone high within the Nazi hierarchy to help your case along and endorse it to Hitler.

Did Werner Goldberg have such friends?

NOTHING in the source you gave states Goldberg was "aryanized."

Penn44

.