Denial

Panzer_Lehr · Post by **Panzer_Lehr** » 01 Oct 2007 15:33

To start, I am not advicating the denial of the Holucaust or saying it was gd thing. It was awful and it did happen there is no question about tht just to what scale it appeared on.
What i would like to put to you is how this is illegal but the Japs denying there war crimes is. There mass torture of these men. Many of the soliders say it didnt happen it clearly did but they insist it didn't.
One case which strikes me happened at sea, Im a keen naval historian of the kriegsmarine but on a recent real i real a book on the war in the pacific and it described a atrocity by a sub commander. who when they sunk a british ship he captured three men i think it was and got a sailor to chop each of there heads off in front of each other one at a time and left the officer last. now to me that is wrong, so i look a bit more into it and found other repoerts of these incidents recorded by Jap sailors. Now this it happend. The captain of the sub who ordered returned to shore a week later and was seen a hero, he however thought different and killed himself outta shame of what he did. his Family deny he did this deed although he recoreded in his diary of the journey.
i think this is just as bad a the holocaust, and should be banned by law.
What do you guys think about this.

KB

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » 01 Oct 2007 16:02

KB, my opinion is simple - I don't agree with Holocaust Denial being a crime - because I believe in the TOTAL freedom of information, and the right to use/interpret that information as an adjunct to free speech.

I'll give you an example; when I was a kid and at school, we were taught that the Holoaust took 4.5 million Jews. I still have school history texts on my shelves that state this as historical FACT. Over the years this has spiralled UP to 6.5. How can a categorical "fact" twenty years ago stop being a "fact"?

Or - a non-Holocaust example. On a thread in the "WWII in the Nediterranean" section, a poster is currently asking for information on the island of Vis. One poster added information from a book published many decades ago...but SINCE then MUCH more about the subject of that particular book has become known - making it in certain areas redundant if not actually wrong. "Commando Force 133"??? One of my favourite films is "Ill Met By Moonlight" and in its introduction talks about the efforts of Foorce 133 in Crete also. It wasn't until the work of M.R.D. Foot and others in the 1980s that the efforts and contributions of SOE became properly know by name....and Force 133 was just an administrative cover-name...

Or - Winston Churchill's "History of the Second World War"; regarded by many as a definitive history of events when viewed from ONE particular perspective - but THEN we found out about ULTRA...

Denial as a crime would rob us of the ability to investigate and reassess upwards as well as downwards. It's saying "you can learn and investigate all you bloody like, no matter of you're an amateur or a world-repected historian - BUT if something appears that allows us globally to re-assess numbers DOWN even by one head - keep your mouth SHUT because you're committing a crime" I'm afraid I believe in the paramount authority of the TRUTH...and would be the first to admit its sometimes VERY unpalatable. I believe that we still know only a fraction of what comprises the "truth" of ALL events 1939-45...because SO many sources - people's memories, personal diaries, governmental sources etc. are just plain gone. Who can say what was on all those papers burnt at how many headquarters/ministries/offices etc. as an enemy of whatever creed or colour apoproached? The people who would make Holocaust Denial a crime are putting a limit to knowledge, and I don't believe they - or anyone - should be allowed to do that.

One final example; look at ALL the work that has been done on the Holocaust. Sixty years of research...and without access to the Holocaust Archive in Germany that's only now being prepared for access. How will THAT change our perspectives? My point is - we should be allowed to change our perspectives.

Panzer_Lehr · Post by **Panzer_Lehr** » 01 Oct 2007 16:15

Hey,
Thanks for your view i agree with you. I think it shouldnt be a crime but now we both have said this we have commited a crime in denying the denial law lol sad world we live in.
What i wanna know is as silly as all this law crap is, why can one set of atrocities be denial and another not be thats what gets me and actually infuriates me.
But on your point you are very true. I believe if someone can prove it they can have there say, Simple as that.

KB

Penn44 · Post by **Penn44** » 01 Oct 2007 16:35

Panzer-Lehr:

Recommend you consider dropping your use of "Jap" as it is considered offensive by some.

Penn44

.

Ship of Fools · Post by **Ship of Fools** » 01 Oct 2007 16:42

One case which strikes me happened at sea, Im a keen naval historian of the kriegsmarine but on a recent real i real a book on the war in the pacific and it described a atrocity by a sub commander. who when they sunk a british ship he captured three men i think it was and got a sailor to chop each of there heads off in front of each other one at a time and left the officer last. now to me that is wrong, so i look a bit more into it and found other repoerts of these incidents recorded by Jap sailors. Now this it happend. The captain of the sub who ordered returned to shore a week later and was seen a hero, he however thought different and killed himself outta shame of what he did. his Family deny he did this deed although he recoreded in his diary of the journey

Well given I am a holocaust denier myself I am certainly not going to advocate making it illegal.

In this case you should perhaps consider a little leeway for family members who may find it difficult to believe people they see in a home enviroment can be capable of brutality in the war enviroment.

Incidently its normal practice here to reference claims with either a web link or a book and page number and (in this case) the British ship involved would be handy.

Panzer_Lehr · Post by **Panzer_Lehr** » 01 Oct 2007 17:53

Penn44 wrote:Panzer-Lehr:

Recommend you consider dropping your use of "Jap" as it is considered offensive by some.

Penn44

.

maybe but its no different to calling me a brit, its just a shortining of the word. Japenese, Jap.
If i was to say Brit was offensive.
This scenario i write is hypothetical: I could be a brit but not wish to be called one becuase i have no desire to be associated with Scotland or Wales, therefore im English. You see, different people different perceptions. If someone don't like it so be it, but it is not and offence or offencive to use the word.

in regards to the book i will find the Author when i return home from Uni. The book is Called 'The War in The Pacific' it was by a former US Officer in the Army his name escapes me atm. Page number no idea was along time ago i read the book two years or so but i remember that bit as it was a shock for me to read. I will have alook when i get home though for you.

KB

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 01 Oct 2007 17:56

A post from Penn44, which was off-topic, directed at other posters and added nothing informative or important to the subject, was deleted by this moderator -- DT.

Panzer_Lehr -- (1) You wrote (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 49#1121149 ):
(a)

One case which strikes me happened at sea, Im a keen naval historian of the kriegsmarine but on a recent real i real a book on the war in the pacific and it described a atrocity by a sub commander. who when they sunk a british ship he captured three men i think it was and got a sailor to chop each of there heads off in front of each other one at a time and left the officer last. now to me that is wrong, so i look a bit more into it and found other repoerts of these incidents recorded by Jap sailors. Now this it happend. The captain of the sub who ordered returned to shore a week later and was seen a hero, he however thought different and killed himself outta shame of what he did. his Family deny he did this deed although he recoreded in his diary of the journey.
i think this is just as bad a the holocaust, and should be banned by law.

(b) Then you wrote: (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 77#1121177 ):

Thanks for your view i agree with you. I think it shouldnt be a crime but now we both have said this we have commited a crime in denying the denial law lol sad world we live in.

These positions are inconsistent.

(2) When you wrote:

I think it shouldnt be a crime but now we both have said this we have commited a crime in denying the denial law lol sad world we live in.

you did not reference any law in particular as a basis for your conclusion that "we have commited a crime in denying the denial law." This leaves our readers wondering what you're talking about, and whether you have any idea what you're talking about. The "lol" (laugh out loud) reference fits your comment, as does your ending remark "sad world we live in."

If you have a problem with some one or another anti-denial law, please read it first and then cite to it in your post. This will provide a basis for an intelligent discussion of the subject.

(3) Your post poses a number of other problems: The forum and section rules are posted for all to see at:

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

(a) We don't permit slang expressions for ethnic, religious or racial groups like the term "Japs," which you managed to work in twice in a single post.

National and religious insults are forbidden by this first rule of the forum, as are racist remarks and slang expressions for ethnic, religious or racial groups. Remarks containing insulting generalizations about nationalities, ethnic groups, societies or religious groups and practices are not permitted here. This includes remarks about collective responsibility.

Nonconforming posts are subject to deletion without warning. Serious breaches of these rules are punishable by banning the poster.

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

(b) We require poster's claims come with sourced references, as "Ship of Fools" has pointed out to you. Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after a warning.

Undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum.

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(c) The call of the question of this thread (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 49#1121149 ) is:

What do you guys think about this.

The research sections of this forum, such as the H&WC section, are run for the benefit of our readers who come here looking for sourced information. Consequently, we're not interested in pure opinion threads here:

Since the purpose of this section of the forum is to exchange information and hold informed discussions about historical problems, posts which express unsolicited opinions without supporting facts and sources do not promote the purposes of the forum. Consequently, such posts are subject to deletion after a warning to the poster.

The same reasoning applies to opinion threads.

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(d) We also have a policy against redundant threads, because multiple threads on a single topic make it difficult for our readers to find the information or fact-based discussion they're looking for -- they have to go on a scavenger hunt through the 130+ H&WC section page index with 36 threads per page to get their questions answered:

If a reader finds that there are pre-existing threads on the subject, we ask that the readers post there rather than start a new one.

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