German for "Uprooting"

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Thorfinn
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Post by Thorfinn » 15 Apr 2002 19:50

I was just reading a site, and I noticed a specific usage of the word "Ausrottung". What do you think it means in the context of the following excerpt?
www.susas.de wrote:...und war begleitet von der Ausrottung nahezu ganzer Völker (v. a. der Herero und Nama in Deutsch-Südwestafrika).
I know that the Hottentots did not come close to being nearly entirely "exterminated" in Deutsch-Südwestafrika. I also know that the Hottentots were nearly entirely "uprooted" in Deutsch-Südwestafrika. There was an order by the government (Lothar von Trotha) that stated all Hottentots (as well as Hereros) were to leave the German territory if they would not turn themselves in, and they were not to come back within German borders. Many that disobeyed this order were killed, but a majority of the Hottentots were not killed or "exterminated". It is contested that it was a different situation with the Hereros (it is possible that a majority of them were killed), but this excerpt states both Hereros, and Hottentots.

http://www.susas.de/1wk.htm

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 15 Apr 2002 20:15

Nice quote.

Now try to think a little, Mr. Aryan Nations.

If not all Herero/Hottentots were killed, as you maintain, what is this more likely to mean if the site you quoted speaks of the "Ausrottung nahezu ganzer Völker", the "near-extermination of whole peoples":

1. It means that the information on the site is correct - the peoples in question were nearly, but not wholly exterminated;

2. It means that the site you quoted is being somewhat hyperbolic in using the term "extermination";

3. It means that the term "Ausrottung", i.e. "extermination", does not imply wholesale killing.

I trust that Mr. Thorfinn will make his choice with true Aryan logic.

I'm impressed by your knowledge of antropology, by the way. How do you know that the "Nama" were the Hottentots?

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Post by Dan » 15 Apr 2002 20:40

The Nama are the largest tribe left of the Khoisan peoples, who comprise the Hottentots and Bushmen. I had several of them working for me, as they are plentifull in the Northern Cape Provence in South Africa, and very numerous today in Namibia (former German South West Africa).

Yes, they are Hottentots. Most today speak Afrikaans, which is the language used by everyone in that area as a common toung. It is also a "click language".

And if the word Ausrotten was used to describe German policy towards them, then, quite simply, Ausrotten DID NOT MEAN EXTERMINATE. Nobody on this earth can make it mean exterminate, because that was never the intention of the Germans. The Nama-German war at the turn of the century was quite brutal, and many Nama participants were hung, but there were no large scale massacres of women and children.


If anyone wants to know about this particular war, I know as much as anyone likely to be on the net. One of my friend was the leading historian of that war, and several of my Nama friend had grandfathers who fought in it. One even had a Lee Enfield .303 which I handled. It had 4 xxxx's on the barrel.

It is imperative that we are given a full citation of the quote where this word appears.

NB
The word "Hottentot" means something like "nigger" and isn't used with these people today. You can even be arrested for using it.

Dan

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 15 Apr 2002 20:48

Dan,

Thanks for this interesting lesson in African antropology.

This means that of the three alternatives I proposed to Thorfinn, # 2 is the most likely - the website he quoted was somewhat hyperbolic when referring to what was done to the Nama as "near-extermination".

Cheers,

Roberto

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Hans
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Re: Smelting Gold...

Post by Hans » 15 Apr 2002 21:05

Scott,

It is indeed a legend that the BIRKENAU Sonderkommando was liquidated after a short period of working. And it was no one else than Sonderkommando member Filip Müller who has debunked this legend, Scott!
Mannheim
24 January 1980

Filip Müller
68 Mannheim 1
Ulmenweg 25
West Germany

Dear Mr. Bennett,

I have received your letter thru Routledge & Kegan of London. Your justified questions demonstrate that you are very familiar with the concentration camp literature which unfortunately does not always present correct testimonies. Many legends have been written about this tragic truth and a few falsehoods have crept into the writing of Dr. Nyiszli.

Now, my answers to your questions.

My time in the Sonderkommando (special unit) was divided into two phases: a) in Auschwitz I from May 1942, and b) in Auschwitz II-Birkenau from late Spring 1943 until 18 January 1945.

During the course of my stay at Auschwitz I there were never any selections (Selektionen). From May 1942 until December 1942, a group of about 200 men was simultaneously active in the Birkenau Sonderkommando. They were gassed in December 1942 in Auschwitz I. Afterwards, a new Sonderkommando was organized by the SS in about January 1943 in which 300 inmates had to work in Birkenau. From February 1944 until November 1944, four selections in all were carried out there. At the final selection, 30 inmates were chosen for Crematorium V. (Among them, the group of Dr. Nyiszli, myself and others.) At the same time, another 70 men were assigned to the so-called "Abbruchkommando" (demolition unit) which worked on dismantling the crematoria. The rest were sent on to Grossrosen. However, these men were killed at an unknown location. (On that subject, see pp161-162 of my book.) The claim that periodic selections were supposed to have been made of the Sonderkommando does not correspond to the facts. For example, during the course of the entire year 1943 no selections were carried out. The strength (size) of the Sonderkommandos was dependent on the number of transports which arrived, and was not bound to any time period. The further fate of the Sonderkommandos can be read on pp164, 166 and 167.

About 100 men from the Sonderkommandos survived the liberation. A few are living today in Israel (including, for example, the brothers Avrohom and Schlomo Dragon, Milten Bugi, Lemke and others). My friend Alter Feinzylberg, alias Jankowski, lives in Paris. He was in the crematorium in Auschwitz I after November 1942. And so forth. The many statements which allege that not a single inmate who was in a Sonderkommando remained alive are also only pure fiction.

The following factors were decisive as far as my own fate is concerned:

l. A strong will to live, with the goal of being an eyewitness to the crimes and not to capitulate in border-line situations.

2. To pass on information and documents to escaping inmates about the crimes and thus alert world attention. Altho this happened, the Allies unfortunately failed to draw the conclusions. See chapter V. (Alfred Wetzler, Walter Rosenberg-Vrba).

3. Thru the conspirative activities in preparation for a total revolt, flight to the partisans, and then to blowup the railway lines to Auschwitz and thereby bring the inferno to an end.

4. Fate.

This spiritual attitude which gave my life meaning there sometimes played the most important role at certain times. It strengthened my will and gave my life meaning. All these important moments are described in detail in the book.

I got to know Dr. Nyszli (sic) very well in early summer 1944. He had to work in the Sonderkommando with his colleagues, Prof. Gorog and others, as a pathologist for Dr. Mengele. He was an outstanding and optimistic man. In contrast, Prof. Gorog was a sensible person. He died in Mauthausen in 1945. 1 never saw Dr. Nyiszli again after the war. He is supposed to have died in 1949-1950.

I am sure that my statements will give you an adequate overview on this subject. I remain, with friendly greetings,

s/F. Müller

P.S. Since I don't know English, I am writing in German. Hopefully you will find someone who can translate this for you.

(Source: The Journal of Historical Review, vol. 1, no. 3, pp. 267-275.)


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Scott Smith
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HISTORIANS, sold for a Crust of BREAD...

Post by Scott Smith » 15 Apr 2002 21:23

Roberto,

A good historian will examine all the possibilties, including whether "special treatment" and "gas cellar" might refer to bomb proofing, delousing, sewage treatment, gold smelting, or other projects done at or about the Krema installations. In addition, it wouldn't necessarily have to actually be inside the building to be on the same power circuit.

As far as the special skills of the Sonderkommando, it doesn't look to me like it takes too much in the way of skill to "moose" bodies around from point A to point B.

Of course, it would take quite a special individual, a special kind of WORM, if you will, to help execute and dispose of one's own people for the enemy, in exchange for a crust of bread and a few days more of a miserable life.

Sorry, the Sonderkommando/Survivor testimonies don't cut much ice with me. I'm just too skeptical to Believe anything at face value.
:)

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 15 Apr 2002 21:42

A good historian will examine all the possibilties, including whether "special treatment" and "gas cellar" might refer to bomb proofing, delousing, sewage treatment, gold smelting, or other projects done at or about the Krema installations.
Good historians have examined all these possibilities – and excluded all except that of homicidal killing.
In addition, it wouldn't necessarily have to actually be inside the building to be on the same power circuit.
Fine, then show us a smelting device linked to the same power circuit (evidence that there was any smelting of gold teeth at Auschwitz-Birkenau, first of all) plus a good reason to call the smelting of gold teeth “special treatment”.
As far as the special skills of the Sonderkommando, it doesn't look to me like it takes too much in the way of skill to "moose" bodies around from point A to point B.
Was that as far as your thinking skills got you, Reverend? What about operating the crematoria ovens in such a way as to burn several bodies at a time and thus save fuel, cutting hair, pulling out gold teeth, calming down the victims – those folks didn’t have to be great technicians, but versatile and experienced they had to be.
Using the body fat of corpulent victims as a fuel was something that would require first hand knowledge. Tauber was a shoemaker and would not have been in a position to know this without actually observing it. The issue is how credible was this testimony. The German engineer Rudolf Jakobskotter, who Mattogno had cited as an authority on cremation ovens, wrote that body fat produces heat for burning in an oven. Mattogno did not directly address the issue of using body fat in the ovens as a source of fuel. He had initially dismissed testimony about using body fat in cremation pits to accelerate the burning process. However, he subsequently withdrew his initial objection by writing that "I have discovered that such a procedure can be made to work if done in a determined fashion..." Tauber had also discussed how body fat was used in the cremation pits to accelerate burning.
Source of quote:

John C. Zimmermann, Body Disposal at Auschwitz: The End of Holocaust Denial
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... -disposal/
Of course, it would take quite a special individual, a special kind of WORM, if you will, to help execute and dispose of one's own people for the enemy, in exchange for a crust of bread and a few days more of a miserable life.
Guess who it is that I consider a WORM, Reverend. Try to look at it this way: Someone has to stay alive to tell the story. If the Sonderkommando fellows had been killed, “Revisionist” buggers would have a few inconvenient witnesses less to worry about.
Sorry, the Sonderkommando/Survivor testimonies don't cut much ice with me. I'm just too skeptical to Believe anything at face value.
No, Reverend, you’re not too skeptical to believe, you are too much a Believer to look at any evidence that doesn’t fit in with your Beliefs and too uncritical to even consider that your “Revisionist” gurus may just be a pack of morons, liars or both. The exact opposite of what you pretend to be, in other words.

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Re: HISTORIANS, sold for a Crust of BREAD...

Post by Hans » 15 Apr 2002 21:56

Scott Smith wrote: As far as the special skills of the Sonderkommando, it doesn't look to me like it takes too much in the way of skill to "moose" bodies around from point A to point B.
Filip Müller and Henryk Tauber were trained as stokers in the crematorium in the Stammlager. They were specialists on economical corpse cremation, a valuable workforce for the SS and hardly to substitute, Scott. The other thing is that Müller and Tauber were willing to do this job (since they were forced to do so and killed otherwise, I should bether say, they accepted their tragic fate and didn't resist), the SS had no problems with them. When the SS forced several hundreds jews from Greece (?) to work in the Sonderkommando in early 1944, they refused to do it. They were gassed immeadiately.
Don't you think that it was much easier for the SS to hold a good working team of Sonderkommandos over a long period, than to liquidate them every third month risking a Sonderkommando revolt (that actually happened with the October 1944 selection) and loosing valuable work force, apart from the problems that could occur with the new Sonderkommando.
I wonder why I am somehow sure that you would point out exactly these arguments when the "traditionalist" view of Auschwitz would say that the Sonderkommando was liquidated after a short time. Holocaust denial?

Hans

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Post by walterkaschner » 15 Apr 2002 23:57

Dan,

It is my recollection that only about 15,000 of the estimated 80,000 Hereros survived the War, and that only about 1/2 of the Namas (a much smaller population than the Hereros) survived. I can not for the life of me recall my source for this right now and I'm off to the Symphony, but will search it out tomorrow. If your friend's book is in English I would be interested in reading it, but Afrikaans is, I regret, beyond my slender capabilities.

Best Regards, Walter

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Post by Dan » 16 Apr 2002 00:43

Kaschner, I doubt if there's too much out there in English. These were a series of wars in the true Southern African tradition, with changing sides and complex temporary arraingments.

The Hereros I don't know too much about, the mayor of the neighboring village was a friend of mine and he clamed he was a Herero from a tribe who's men folk were killed off by the Namas and who's women and children were incorperated into their tribe, later becoming known as the Damaras. Most historians and local experts believed this, as the Damara toung is almost the same at the Nama toung, but he Namas are Yellow and have slanted eyes and the Damara are Black like the Herero and have round eyes like most of the Blacks. I had several workers from both tribes ("nations" was the word they used) and this was how everyone could tell them apart.

A Damara woman raised my kids, and the District I was in is called "Namaqualand" in recognition of the primacy of these people. The guy in charge of my animals was a Nama, and taught me much about tracking. Even today, I'm childishly proud of this (where I'm now at) worthless skill!

I would frankly distrust anyone who could quote a specific figure for those killed.

The Germans weren't nice, and many of the times the Namas weren't either. Then you had a few Bushmen scattered in between, and you would get, say an Afrikaner policeman with Nama scouts hunting a Bushman family group who robbed a Tswana farmer.

Very complicated and very interesting. I even found a 8mm mauser shell primed in Berlin next to my farm. Who knows who fired it and at whom?

BTW the "Colourd" people you hear about from South Africa and Namibia are basically racial Nama and their relatives. There is some White blood and some small Black blood, but their are many millions of them, so that's another place the Nama went, just like your Mexican neighbors speak an European language, have much of our culture, but you can see they have much Indian blood, as well as Amerindian cultural traits. The Aztecs didn't get killed so much as adsorbed (partially).

Marcus is probably gritting his teeth now, but feel free to try to bring this back into "topic" some how.

I can't resist further saying that the manager of the local Bottle Store (naturally a friend of mine) was also Damara, and he spoke German. His name is Sigfried. I was once supervising a crew of about 25 Colourds and one said "my grandpa was German". Then several others said the same thing, so war's opposite was also commonplace.

When ever a German soldier died, there was alway an officer around who would mark the spot, then later come back with authorites to put up a monument. There were three kinds that I know of. The first was (and I'm sure my Afrikaans is messing up my German spelling so I'll write the English word) "Fallen" and this meant died in battle. The second was "Drowned" and this because of chasing eachother back and forth across the Orange River. The third, and by far the most common was "Died" and this mostly because of VD. There was a HUGE compound for German soldiers that served as a sanitorium for isolating and treating these troops.

One further note: I actually experienced a case where there was a huge mass grave, and today I haven't got a clue as to which battle this was caused by. The Namas told me the difference in a White man's skull and a Khoisan's skull was the lines that divide the skull into sections. The difference is pronounced, as I personally saw, and there were Whites and Hottentots buried right underneath our feet. Whenever we developed a new area, we re-interned the bones, and during Aparteid kept them separate :roll: .

Very best, and I hope you enjoyed your night out.

Dan

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BACK ON TRACK, LOL

Post by Scott Smith » 16 Apr 2002 03:32

Hans wrote:Holocaust denial?
Denier? That’s someone else’s false-dichotomy. I don’t have a need to believe or disbelieve. I am a skeptic, however.

It seems possible that Höß with his insecticide could have crudely gassed some Russian POWs who were unfit for hard labor, but I’m not seeing much in the way of plausible engineering for a massive Jewish extermination program.

However, I’ll leave that to more serious historians. All I say is that people were NOT gassed by diesel exhaust. Ten years from now the idea will probably seem as cuckoo in the mainstream as death-by-steam does now.

Okay, Hans, so on the one hand the Sonderkommando were all being bumped-off because they knew too much, so that explains why witnesses who have actually seen a gaschamber are as scarce as hen’s teeth. (The corollary is of course that those who say there were NO gaschambers at the camp are prosecuted as hateful subversives, or worse, and they are not witnesses of course.)

But then, a few star-witnesses like Müller and Tauber were Sonderkommando who worked for two-years in the Kremas as expert coke-stokers, except that the Nazis forgot to kill them off when they had the chance, despite no further need for their noble services at the end of 1944.

And, in a mighty historical vein, those intrepid Sonderkommando did their grim work gassing and burning fellow Jews so that they could Bear Witness for-us-all about NS-Verbrechen!

I can almost hear Hitler’s cybernetic 200 hp Mercedes barreling down the virtual-Autobahn right now!

I don’t know about you, but despite a great reluctance to place myself in someone else’s ethical shoes, I am absolutely certain that they could gas me all they wanted to but I wouldn’t be doing it to my fellows for a crust of bread, "credible witness" that I am or not.

Of course, if all they were doing was body-disposal and were not part of a murder program, well that is work that absolutely needs to be done, given the realities of a dishonorable wartime captivity. There’s plenty that is not too savory, but let’s not distort the truth, either, shall we…

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Post by michael mills » 16 Apr 2002 07:50

Interesting. What exactly did Bismarck say? It would seem that he spoke of "Ausrottung" of the problem related to there being Poles in the Posen Province rather than of the Ausrottung of the Posen Poles.
Am I right?
The information about Bismarck's use of the word "Ausrottung" comes from the book "Germans, Poles and Jews: The Nationality Conflict in the Prussian East, 1772-1914", by William Hagen.

As I recall, Bismarck used the word in a private letter to his sister, rather than in a public statment.

I will try to refer to the book again when I have the occasion, and see if it gives the exact context.

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Post by Roberto » 16 Apr 2002 10:34

Denier? That’s someone else’s false-dichotomy. I don’t have a need to believe or disbelieve. I am a skeptic, however.
A somewhat less than honest statement. Those of us who have come to know the Reverend more closely are aware that he so badly wants to believe in certain things that he switches his brain off.
It seems possible that Höß with his insecticide could have crudely gassed some Russian POWs who were unfit for hard labor, but I’m not seeing much in the way of plausible engineering for a massive Jewish extermination program.
If he’s interested in the “engineering” of the whole thing, why hasn’t the Reverend read the works of Pressac and van Pelt on this subject? He might have learned a lot more from them about the comparatively unimportant details that interest him than from Butz’ screed and other sectarian bibles.
However, I’ll leave that to more serious historians.
Good idea. Pressac and van Pelt have already taken care of it, as the Reverend would know if he didn’t piously and uncritically adhere to the “Journal of Historical Review” and like-minded pamphlets.
All I say is that people were NOT gassed by diesel exhaust. Ten years from now the idea will probably seem as cuckoo in the mainstream as death-by-steam does now.
I’ve got news for you, Reverend: nobody other than you and like-minded morons ever cared much about whether the Treblinka gassing engine was a diesel engine or a gasoline engine, for obvious reasons. Witnesses may have described it as a diesel engine or those who interrogated them may have understood the witnesses’ depositions in this sense, but even if the witnesses or their interrogators were mistaken in this respect, that would only mean that the engine used was actually a gasoline engine burning diesel fuel or gasoline. Which means that all you have to say is much a do about nothing.
Okay, Hans, so on the one hand the Sonderkommando were all being bumped-off because they knew too much, so that explains why witnesses who have actually seen a gaschamber are as scarce as hen’s teeth. (The corollary is of course that those who say there were NO gaschambers at the camp are prosecuted as hateful subversives, or worse, and they are not witnesses of course.)

But then, a few star-witnesses like Müller and Tauber were Sonderkommando who worked for two-years in the Kremas as expert coke-stokers, except that the Nazis forgot to kill them off when they had the chance, despite no further need for their noble services at the end of 1944.

And, in a mighty historical vein, those intrepid Sonderkommando did their grim work gassing and burning fellow Jews so that they could Bear Witness for-us-all about NS-Verbrechen!
Exactly, Reverend. You are beginning to get the picture – except that your martyrs “prosecuted as hateful subversives” are in actual fact nothing other than ideologically motivated liars who, like star witness Thies Christophersen, never got close to seeing what they claim wasn’t there. You also forgot to mention that the depositions of the Sonderkommando survivors are corroborated by the depositions of a total of 69 eyewitnesses from the ranks of the perpetrators, by physical evidence and by the documents of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Bauleitung.
I don’t know about you, but despite a great reluctance to place myself in someone else’s ethical shoes, I am absolutely certain that they could gas me all they wanted to but I wouldn’t be doing it to my fellows for a crust of bread, "credible witness" that I am or not.
Every man is different, and how does Smith know how he would react in a similar situation? Has he ever experienced any? And then, is anybody saying that the Sonderkommando survivors were paradigms of virtue? They were key witnesses, that’s all.
Of course, if all they were doing was body-disposal and were not part of a murder program, well that is work that absolutely needs to be done, given the realities of a dishonorable wartime captivity. There’s plenty that is not too savory, but let’s not distort the truth, either, shall we…
Exactly. Let’s be blind, deaf and dumb like the Reverend and believe that certain things we wouldn’t like to have happened never happened, whatever the evidence to the contrary, simply because we wouldn’t like them to have happened. That’s what Faith is all about.
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10

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Hans
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Re: BACK ON TRACK, LOL

Post by Hans » 16 Apr 2002 19:51

Scott Smith wrote:
Hans wrote:Holocaust denial?
Denier? That’s someone else’s false-dichotomy. I don’t have a need to believe or disbelieve. I am a skeptic, however.
Sceptic? Then may we see some evidence that justifies your "sceptical" view on Auschwitz gas chambers?
Of course somebody who dismisses the testimony of the Jewish Sonderkommando without having read it is far away from being a sceptic. He doesn't know what he is talking about and is a shameless denier of the historical reality.
But then, a few star-witnesses like Müller and Tauber were Sonderkommando who worked for two-years in the Kremas as expert coke-stokers, except that the Nazis forgot to kill them off when they had the chance, despite no further need for their noble services at the end of 1944.
The last crematorium was blown up on the day of the evacuation. Until this day it was used for cremating corpses. Try again, Scott.

[irrelevant blabla deleted]

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Post by Thorfinn » 16 Apr 2002 22:17

meinungen wrote:Dan,

Thanks for this interesting lesson in African antropology.

This means that of the three alternatives I proposed to Thorfinn, # 2 is the most likely - the website he quoted was somewhat hyperbolic when referring to what was done to the Nama as "near-extermination".

Cheers,

Roberto
There are two points.

1. If the words on the quoted site meant to say "extermination", they are not exaggerating; they are lying.

2. The words on the site meant to say "uprooted", because the mentioned people were, in fact, "uprooted".

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