German for "Uprooting"

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
walterkaschner
In memoriam
Posts: 1588
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 01:17
Location: Houston, Texas

Post by walterkaschner » 17 Apr 2002 02:19

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your good wishes. It was a great evening of music, featuring the Mozart Piano Concerto #26 and the Prokofiev Symphony #5. Both outstanding! I do hope your children keep up with their interest in music; I'm sure they will find that the rewards increase mightily with age.

As to my recollections regarding the German-Herero-Nama War in German SouthWest Africa, I've finally located the source from my woefully disorganized library. It is Thomas Pakenham (the same who authored a pretty good IMHO popular history of the Boer war), "The Scramble for Africa" Random House, 1991, Chapter 33. His principal (but not only) source in turn is Helmut Bley, "South-West Africa Under German Rule: 1894-1914" 1971 (translated by one H. Ridley). Pakenham is writing for the general reader, but seems to be trying to be accurate and objective.

After describing the harsh treatment accorded by the Germans to the Herero and Nama after their surrender, Pakenham states that:

"When the census was taken in 1911, only half the Nama estimated a decade befoe (9,800 out of 20,000) and less than a quarter of the original number of Herero (15,000 out of 80,000) were found to have survived the war."

The figures as to the Herero are identical to those cited in my 1959 edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, which cites several English language sources. It is, however, silent as to the Nama.

I respect and to some degree envy your direct and intimate knowledge of this part of the world, so remote to us US natives and yet so complicated and interesting, and certainly accept the fact that census figures should be taken as no more than wild estimates. However, given the propensity of the German bureaucrat for trying to amass correct facts and figures I have to assume they have some semblance of accuracy.

With an eye to the possibility of Marcus' displeasure at this being off topic, I can only plead that it is relevant to Thorfinn's notion that his quote from an internet site dealing with the the South-West Africa Herero War bears some weight on the meaning of the German word "ausrotten". I will comment on that at another time.

Best regards, Kaschner

Dan
Member
Posts: 8429
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
Location: California

Post by Dan » 17 Apr 2002 03:23

As to my recollections regarding the German-Herero-Nama War in German SouthWest Africa, I've finally located the source from my woefully disorganized library. It is Thomas Pakenham
I also found his work on the Boer war very ballanced for an Englishman.
"When the census was taken in 1911, only half the Nama estimated a decade befoe (9,800 out of 20,000) and less than a quarter of the original number of Herero (15,000 out of 80,000) were found to have survived the war."
With the Herero, as I said, I don't know much, but as far as estimating the number of Nama, the volk had a line drawn by Germany and England in the middle of their range, and when ever threatened by either side, they simply crossed the boarder. There are towns where I went regularly to recrute and transport labor that had several thousand Namas. I can't believe the number 20,000 could be anything but a wild guess, and the 9,800 were surely those who weren't killed and stayed in DSW. How many crossed the boarder? It was, and is, simply a matter of grabbing a log and floting across. I've done it myself numerous times.

The Germans didn't need much of an excuss to hang a Nama, but I've never heard from the old people or local historians that there were regular attrocities committed against women and children. There was much chivalry show on both sides towards women. Germans that were killed were buried and their medals placed on their graves.

I got a chance to read the diary of the man the English left behind in DSW to look after their interests after they fled at the beginning of WW1. He was a German missionary, and when the Whites had fled the Namas and others went on a drinking and destroying spree which didn't stop until the Germans entered the British enclave (Walvis Baai) and started hanging people.

The Afrikaners respect the Germans mightily, but consider them overly ruthless and lacking sometimes in the softer aspects of humanity. But having said that, I'm not trying to justify anyone's actions during that time, but if Ausrotten is used to mean ruthlessly crushing independence while behaving "correctly" towards non-combatants, this would be correct in the case of the Nama war.

I'm not saying that is, of course, I'd want first to get more information on it's use, if it was indeed used in this context.

Thanks as always for taking the time to respond to me.

Very best
Dan

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

Re: BACK ON TRACK, LOL

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Apr 2002 04:32

Hans wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Hans wrote:Holocaust denial?
Denier? That’s someone else’s false-dichotomy. I don’t have a need to believe or disbelieve. I am a skeptic, however.
Sceptic? Then may we see some evidence that justifies your "sceptical" view on Auschwitz gas chambers?
I find the engineering questionable, as I have stated, including the process-engineering.

Process-engineering is how you are able to go through the drive-thru at McDonalds at lunchtime without it being a total clusterfuck. Pardon my inelegant language but that's what we called such operations in the Army, and I'm not sure of any comparable civilian term that has more taste.

I admit, Hans, that I am not an expert on Auschwitz but I am learning more every day. I may change all of my opinions tomorrow. I have already helped debunk Treblinka--or more modestly, at least asked some very relevant questions, and right now I am chipping away at the Gas-Van story, or should I say the Gas-Van LIE.
:wink:
Of course somebody who dismisses the testimony of the Jewish Sonderkommando without having read it is far away from being a sceptic. He doesn't know what he is talking about and is a shameless denier of the historical reality.
I don't dismiss the testimony but I qualify it thus, and I do find it questionable. In particular, I don't understand people who would do such things and pontificate about it--unless they were not involved in any homicidal program at all but merely body-disposal. Of course, after the war the tales become tall, with some help from interested parties beginning with the glorious and victorious Allies. I'm sure that wartime detention was a hell-on-earth in any case. And body-disposal must have been the crap-detail of all time.
Hans wrote:
Scott wrote:But then, a few star-witnesses like Müller and Tauber were Sonderkommando who worked for two-years in the Kremas as expert coke-stokers, except that the Nazis forgot to kill them off when they had the chance, despite no further need for their noble services at the end of 1944.
The last crematorium was blown up on the day of the evacuation. Until this day it was used for cremating corpses. Try again, Scott.
Which was in January of 1945, last gassing in the autumn of 1944. Yeah, it's tough to shovel coke conservatively, especially when you can't evacuate what you don't use anyway. No time for spontaneous-human-combustion bonfires either I guess. What do our two lads have to say about the destruction of the Kremas?

And what was so tough for a Nazi about popping a couple of guys who supposedly knew too much in the head with one's 9mm service pistol? We aren't talking about a bunch of sissies here.
:roll:

Image

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002 10:06

Thorfinn wrote:
meinungen wrote:Dan,

Thanks for this interesting lesson in African antropology.

This means that of the three alternatives I proposed to Thorfinn, # 2 is the most likely - the website he quoted was somewhat hyperbolic when referring to what was done to the Nama as "near-extermination".

Cheers,

Roberto
There are two points.
1. If the words on the quoted site meant to say "extermination", they are not exaggerating; they are lying.
OK, then they are "lying".
2. The words on the site meant to say "uprooted", because the mentioned people were, in fact, "uprooted".
That's what my friend would badly like to believe. Familiar as I am with the German language, I consider the exaggeration (or shall we say "lie"?) the far likelier possibility - at least in what concerns the Hottentots.

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002 10:39

I find the engineering questionable, as I have stated, including the process-engineering.
Hollow bunk. Not only is Smith unable to demonstrate what it is about the “engineering” that could not have worked, he is also woefully unable to explain what the relevance of the “engineering” not having been top nudge is supposed to have been – it obviously worked, unless the Reverend can otherwise account for the fate of the people who disappeared behind the gates of the extermination camps and who all documentary, physical and eyewitness evidence shows to have been murdered there.
Process-engineering is how you are able to go through the drive-thru at McDonalds at lunchtime without it being a total clusterfuck. Pardon my inelegant language but that's what we called such operations in the Army, and I'm not sure of any comparable civilian term that has more taste.
More of Smith’s pointless platitudes.
I admit, Hans, that I am not an expert on Auschwitz but I am learning more every day.
I strongly doubt that the Reverend will ever learn anything about the subject matter in question, given the ideological blindfold that he approaches it with.
I may change all of my opinions tomorrow.
Hardly so. True Faith is hard to kill.
I have already helped debunk Treblinka—
How so, Reverend? I don’t remember you having provided a single plausible alternative explanation as to the fate of the people who disappeared from the face of the earth behind the gates of that place, let alone answer any of the questions addressed in my post # 1358 (1/25/02 10:36:23 pm) on the thread

Eyewitness Testimony
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... =1&stop=20

of the old forum.
or more modestly, at least asked some very relevant questions


Making a fuss about whether or not the gassing engine was a diesel engine is not exactly what I would call “relevant questions”. A pointless discussion about the sex of the angels is what I consider it to be.
, and right now I am chipping away at the Gas-Van story,
With the same irrelevancies and accordingly without any success, as we have seen.
or should I say the Gas-Van LIE.
Whatever Faith tells you to, Reverend. As you cannot even begin to explain away the evidence, you’re only making a glorious fool out of yourself.
Quote:
Of course somebody who dismisses the testimony of the Jewish Sonderkommando without having read it is far away from being a sceptic. He doesn't know what he is talking about and is a shameless denier of the historical reality.


I don't dismiss the testimony but I qualify it thus, and I do find it questionable.
On what basis, Reverend – other than it's not fitting into your ideological bubble?
In particular, I don't understand people who would do such things and pontificate about it--unless they were not involved in any homicidal program at all but merely body-disposal.
Easy, buddy. Because they wanted to bear witness to what was done to people. And as their depositions coincided with each other and with those of the perpetrators and with the documentary and eyewitness evidence, they can’t have been all that wrong, can they?
Of course, after the war the tales become tall, with some help from interested parties beginning with the glorious and victorious Allies.
Hollow blah-blah-blah, considering the corroborating evidence from the perpetrators’ side and the documentary and physical evidence – which was mainly assessed not by “the glorious and victorious Allies” but by historians and the independent courts of the German Federal Republic.
I'm sure that wartime detention was a hell-on-earth in any case. And body-disposal must have been the crap-detail of all time.
Especially the disposal of the bodies of women and children murdered in great big bleeding batches, right?
Which was in January of 1945, last gassing in the autumn of 1944. Yeah, it's tough to shovel coke conservatively, especially when you can't evacuate what you don't use anyway. No time for spontaneous-human-combustion bonfires either I guess. What do our two lads have to say about the destruction of the Kremas?
Is there a message underneath the above nonsense, or is the Reverend just letting off steam?
And what was so tough for a Nazi about popping a couple of guys who supposedly knew too much in the head with one's 9mm service pistol? We aren't talking about a bunch of sissies here.
Nothing “tough” about it, Reverend. They just forgot to do it in the confusion of the final days, or failed to do it due to a combination of fortuituous circumstances that are probably addressed in the depositions of the surviving Sonderkommando members. Which depositions, whether the Reverend likes it or not, are much too detailed, coherent and consistent with each other, with the depositions of perpetrators and with documentary and physical evidence to be dismissed as make-believe - unless of course you are a Keeper of the Faith.
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.”
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

WHEN ANGELS GET CARNAL...

Post by Scott Smith » 18 Apr 2002 01:31

Roberto wrote:Making a fuss about whether or not the gassing engine was a diesel engine is not exactly what I would call “relevant questions”. A pointless discussion about the sex of the angels is what I consider it to be.
Not if the angels are giving birth to whoppers.
:mrgreen:
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:...and right now I am chipping away at the Gas-Van story...
With the same irrelevancies and accordingly without any success, as we have seen.
No success? Well I have successfully identified the vehicles claimed to have been murder-vans:

A 5-ton Saurer delivery van--DIESEL--of the type claimed by the Soviets as a "murder-van"...

Image

And a Magirus-Deutz--DIESEL--claimed by Yad Vashem and Fleming to be a photo of an actual Gas-Van...

Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the Final Solution. University of California Press, Berkeley: 1984.

Image

Magirus-Deutz logo: Image

And here is a Büssing-NAG 4500A box-truck used by a V-2 rocket battery, also a DIESEL.

Image

In addition, the Henschel 33G1 Einheits or standard DIESEL was, with a box configuration, known as the Kfz 92a decontamination truck, which could bathe 150 men per hour. The Kfz 93 was a similar delousing van for clothing. I haven't scanned the photos yet. The familiar 6 x 6 Einheits-Diesels had good mobility and were favored by the troops. Magirus, Henschel and others made thousands of Einheits-Diesels to the end of the war.

Image
Last edited by Scott Smith on 18 Apr 2002 22:42, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 18 Apr 2002 09:34

Roberto wrote:
Making a fuss about whether or not the gassing engine was a diesel engine is not exactly what I would call “relevant questions”. A pointless discussion about the sex of the angels is what I consider it to be.

Not if the angels are giving birth to whoppers.
Where’s the “whopper” Reverend? I guess it takes Faith to see it ...
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
...and right now I am chipping away at the Gas-Van story...

With the same irrelevancies and accordingly without any success, as we have seen.

No success? Well I have successfully identified the vehicles claimed to have been murder-vans:

A 5-ton Saurer delivery van--DIESEL--of the type claimed by the Soviets as a "murder-van"...
Which gives us the following realistic possibilities:

i) the van on the photograph was misidentified as a gassing van;

ii) the van on the photograph was a gassing van and, although of Saurer manufacture, had been custom-built with a gasoline instead of a diesel engine to be better suited for use in the cold Russian weather;

iii) Smith is lying about the van on the picture having been identified as a gassing van;

iv) Smith’s contention that a gassing van with a diesel engine was not a suitable killing instrument is a big fat hoax.
And a Magirus-Deutz--DIESEL--claimed by Yad Vashem and Fleming to be a photo of an actual Gas-Van...


Which gives us the following realistic possibilities:

i) the van on the photograph was misidentified as a gassing van (quite probable, since I don’t remember having seen any eyewitness accounts or documentary evidence speaking of Magirus-Deutz trucks as gassing vans);

ii) the van on the photograph was a gassing van and, although of MD manufacture, had been custom-built with a gasoline instead of a diesel engine to be better suited for use in the cold Russian weather;

iii) Smith’s contention that a gassing van with a diesel engine was not a suitable killing instrument is a big fat hoax.
In addition, the Henschel 33G1 Einheits or standard DIESEL was, with a box configuration, known as the Kfz 92a decontamination truck, which could bathe 150 men per hour. The Kfz 93 was a similar delousing van for clothing. I haven't scanned the photos yet. The familiar 6 x 6 Einheits Diesels had good mobility and were favored by the troops. Magirus, Henschel and others made thousands of Einheits Diesels to the end of the war.
Interesting technical information, but quite beside the topic given that the documented gas vans where either Saurer or “Diamond” vans or, according to Walter Burmeister’s deposition at the Chelmno trial in Bonn in 1962/63, medium-size Renault trucks with gasoline engines. Tough luck, Reverend.

User avatar
Hans
Member
Posts: 651
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: BACK ON TRACK, LOL

Post by Hans » 18 Apr 2002 10:29

Scott Smith wrote:
Hans wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Hans wrote:Holocaust denial?
Denier? That’s someone else’s false-dichotomy. I don’t have a need to believe or disbelieve. I am a skeptic, however.
Sceptic? Then may we see some evidence that justifies your "sceptical" view on Auschwitz gas chambers?
I find the engineering questionable, as I have stated, including the process-engineering.
More evidence and less creed please. What do you find questionable about "engineering" that justifies your "sceptical " view on Auschwitz gas chambers?
Of course somebody who dismisses the testimony of the Jewish Sonderkommando without having read it is far away from being a sceptic. He doesn't know what he is talking about and is a shameless denier of the historical reality.
I don't dismiss the testimony but I qualify it thus, and I do find it questionable. In particular, I don't understand people who would do such things and pontificate about it--unless they were not involved in any homicidal program at all but merely body-disposal.
A typical approach of holocaust deniers. You dismiss facts because of speculations, which is of course completely absurd and ridiculous as you know when it concerns something else than SS gas chambers: I don't think that the WTC was hit by air planes and dismiss every piece of evidence proving this because I don't understand who would do such things. This justifies that I make jokes about these alleged victims and their fate and post pictures about them with funny comments. I'm just a "sceptic".
Notice something?

And then this really repulsive argument. The fact the some Sonderkommandos have survived, makes mass gassing in Birkenau crematoria "questionable". So in order to sound credible, no one must have survived. However, if no one has survived, then we would have no accurate testimonial evidence of the Birkenau gas chambers and therefore mass gassing would be questionable too. In other words, it doesn't matter if any Sonderkommandos have survived or if none have survived, it doesn't matter what the evidence is, your conclusion is always the same: no mass gassing in Birkenau. To reach this conclusion, the evidence is completely irrelevant, the number of survivers from the Sonderkommando doesn't matter nor does they testimony. Survivers mean no crediblity and so no evidence. No survivers mean no evidence too of course. This is the intellecual misery of holocaust denial.

Hans

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

Double WHOPPERS with ease...

Post by Scott Smith » 18 Apr 2002 10:52

medorjurgen wrote:
Scott wrote:
Roberto wrote:Making a fuss about whether or not the gassing engine was a diesel engine is not exactly what I would call “relevant questions”. A pointless discussion about the sex of the angels is what I consider it to be.
Not if the angels are giving birth to whoppers.
Where’s the “whopper” Reverend? I guess it takes Faith to see it ...
No, you can't see it because you are a True Believer. In your world the angels have wings to fly to Heaven.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:No success? Well I have successfully identified the vehicles claimed to have been murder-vans:

A 5-ton Saurer delivery van--DIESEL--of the type claimed by the Soviets as a "murder-van"...
Which gives us the following realistic possibilities:

i) the van on the photograph was misidentified as a gassing van;

ii) the van on the photograph was a gassing van and, although of Saurer manufacture, had been custom-built with a gasoline instead of a diesel engine to be better suited for use in the cold Russian weather;

iii) Smith is lying about the van on the picture having been identified as a gassing van;

iv) Smith’s contention that a gassing van with a diesel engine was not a suitable killing instrument is a big fat hoax.
There's the L-Word again! Sounds like somebody needs a hug... :)

Read my post again. I didn't say that my photo of a Saurer moving van, owned by Martin Flatz moving company, and linked from their web-site, was a Gas-Van. I said it was the type claimed by the Soviets--in the Krasnodar/Kharkov Show-Trial. (Maybe you should read that post again too.) And I have not yet found a single example of an Österreich-Saurer with a petrol engine. Saurer engines are diesels.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:And a Magirus-Deutz--DIESEL--claimed by Yad Vashem and Fleming to be a photo of an actual Gas-Van...
Which gives us the following realistic possibilities:

i) the van on the photograph was misidentified as a gassing van (quite probable, since I don’t remember having seen any eyewitness accounts or documentary evidence speaking of Magirus-Deutz trucks as gassing vans);
Better take that up with Fleming and Yad Vashem. The photo is linked to Electric Zen, a Holosite. Here is yet-another Holosite link:

Image
Roberto wrote:ii) the van on the photograph was a gassing van and, although of MD manufacture, had been custom-built with a gasoline instead of a diesel engine to be better suited for use in the cold Russian weather;
Nonsense. Magirus is known for diesels. And I have hundreds of photographs of diesels in use on the Eastern Front, including a photo showing quick-replacement batteries and oil-burners that warm the coolant and batteries. A cold diesel can be started with a warmed-one by sharing engine coolant using a connection-hose-fitting (also used with tanks). The Wehrmacht determined that the same procedures had to be followed with gasoline enignes in extreme cold anyway, and they much favored the diesel transport. Some Magirus diesel trucks were even modified for use on German rails and nonstandard Russian rails as cheap locomotives.
Roberto wrote:iii) Smith’s contention that a gassing van with a diesel engine was not a suitable killing instrument is a big fat hoax.
If you pray hard enough and be a good boy Santa will come too.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:In addition, the Henschel 33G1 Einheits or standard DIESEL was, with a box configuration, known as the Kfz 92a decontamination truck, which could bathe 150 men per hour. The Kfz 93 was a similar delousing van for clothing. I haven't scanned the photos yet. The familiar 6 x 6 Einheits Diesels had good mobility and were favored by the troops. Magirus, Henschel and others made thousands of Einheits Diesels to the end of the war.
Interesting technical information, but quite beside the topic given that the documented gas vans where either Saurer or “Diamond” vans...
Diamond-Diesel (see radiator grill which says "DIESEL" inside of a diamond) is also-known-as Borgward in Germany. They also made Einheits-Diesels for the Wehrmacht. I need to scan some better pictures.

Image

Image

Image
Roberto wrote:...or according to Walter Burmeister’s deposition at the Chelmno trial in Bonn in 1962/63, medium-size Renault trucks with gasoline engines. Tough luck, Reverend
Please supply more detail about Renault claim. Even if it was a gasoline engine, that doesn't make the story true.

In any case, I have found two lies so far: one Soviet and one from the Holo-industry.
:mrgreen:

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 18 Apr 2002 12:31

medorjurgen wrote:
Scott wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Making a fuss about whether or not the gassing engine was a diesel engine is not exactly what I would call “relevant questions”. A pointless discussion about the sex of the angels is what I consider it to be.

Where’s the “whopper” Reverend? I guess it takes Faith to see it ...
Not if the angels are giving birth to whoppers.

No, you can't see it because you are a True Believer. In your world the angels have wings to fly to Heaven.
Very lame, Rev. Is that your best shot? In the Reverend’s world, an alleged inaccuracy in the description of a murder weapon means that murder never occurred, no matter how conclusive the evidence that it did. And this guy calls me a True Believer. :lol:
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
No success? Well I have successfully identified the vehicles claimed to have been murder-vans:

A 5-ton Saurer delivery van--DIESEL--of the type claimed by the Soviets as a "murder-van"...

Which gives us the following realistic possibilities:

i) the van on the photograph was misidentified as a gassing van;

ii) the van on the photograph was a gassing van and, although of Saurer manufacture, had been custom-built with a gasoline instead of a diesel engine to be better suited for use in the cold Russian weather;

iii) Smith is lying about the van on the picture having been identified as a gassing van;

iv) Smith’s contention that a gassing van with a diesel engine was not a suitable killing instrument is a big fat hoax.

There's the L-Word again! Sounds like somebody needs a hug...
Someone has given ample proof that he deserves it, I would say. Guess who.
Read my post again. I didn't say that my photo of a Saurer moving van, owned by Martin Flatz moving company, and linked from their web-site, was a Gas-Van. I said it was the type claimed by the Soviets--in the Krasnodar/Kharkov Show-Trial. (Maybe you should read that post again too.)
Thanks, I’ve already taken it apart. Yet the Reverend keeps trying by repeating the same sermon all over again …
And I have not yet found a single example of an Österreich-Saurer with a petrol engine.
He who badly wants to find nothing is not likely to find anything.
Saurer engines are diesels.
The standard issue seems to have been, but it would have made sense to issue a custom – built version with gasoline engines for use in cold Russian weather, as explained by Ovidius. If they were really diesels, the reasonable conclusion would be that alternative iv) applies.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
And a Magirus-Deutz--DIESEL--claimed by Yad Vashem and Fleming to be a photo of an actual Gas-Van...

Which gives us the following realistic possibilities:

i) the van on the photograph was misidentified as a gassing van (quite probable, since I don’t remember having seen any eyewitness accounts or documentary evidence speaking of Magirus-Deutz trucks as gassing vans);

Better take that up with Fleming and Yad Vashem. The photo is linked to Electric Zen, a Holosite.
None of them is my bible. I would like to see a contemporary document or an interrogation protocol where gassing vans are described as Magirus-Deutz trucks. Can the Reverend show us any?
Nonsense. Magirus is known for diesels.
“Known for diesels” doesn’t exclude the possibility of a custom-built gasoline issue. But first of all we need evidence describing gas vans as Magirus trucks. Can the Reverend show us any?
Roberto wrote:
iii) Smith’s contention that a gassing van with a diesel engine was not a suitable killing instrument is a big fat hoax.

If you pray hard enough and be a good boy Santa will come too.
I don’t pray. I’m still waiting for the Reverend to demonstrate that the exhaust of a diesel engine couldn’t be made reliably lethal by increasing the fuel supply and/or restricting the air intake. No show so far, for all the Reverend’s big-mouthed babbling.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
In addition, the Henschel 33G1 Einheits or standard DIESEL was, with a box configuration, known as the Kfz 92a decontamination truck, which could bathe 150 men per hour. The Kfz 93 was a similar delousing van for clothing. I haven't scanned the photos yet. The familiar 6 x 6 Einheits Diesels had good mobility and were favored by the troops. Magirus, Henschel and others made thousands of Einheits Diesels to the end of the war.

Interesting technical information, but quite beside the topic given that the documented gas vans where either Saurer or “Diamond” vans...

Diamond-Diesel (see radiator grill which says "DIESEL" inside of a diamond) is also-known-as Borgward in Germany. They also made Einheits-Diesels for the Wehrmacht. I need to scan some better pictures.
A radiator grill on a purported picture of a Diamond truck means that all Diamond trucks were diesels – convenient True Believer reasoning, but not exactly convincing. As to the Diamond “Einheits-Diesels for the Wehrmacht”, I would like to see some more in that direction than the Reverend’s statement. If there were Diamond diesels for the Wehrmacht, this again would not exclude the possibility of custom-built vehicles with gasoline engines for the Einsatzgruppen. Or the at least equally likely possibility that something is badly wrong with the Reverend’s diesel contentions …
Roberto wrote:
...or according to Walter Burmeister’s deposition at the Chelmno trial in Bonn in 1962/63, medium-size Renault trucks with gasoline engines. Tough luck, Reverend


Please supply more detail about Renault claim.
Testimonial of Zalman Levinbuck, survivor of the Baranovice ghetto (Baranovice Memorial Book, Tel Aviv, pages 562 and following; quoted in Kogon/Langbein/Rückerl et al, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, page 91):
Unter den Lastwagen gibt es riesige mit hermetisch verschließbaren Türen … Diese luftdicht geschlossenen Wagen werden ‘dushegubky’ genannt, was auf russisch ‘Seelentöter’ heißt. Sie bringen bereits tote Menschen heran, die man nicht mehr erschießen muß. Die Menschen werden unterwegs vergiftet durch Gase und Abgasdämpfe, die durch das Verbrennen von Benzin im Motor entstanden sind. Denn diese Abgase werden durch ein spezielles Rohr ins Wageninnere geleitet, anstatt, wie normalerweise, frei an die Luft zu entweichen; und so werden die Menschen durch das Kohlenmonoxyd getötet.
My translation:
Among the trucks there were giant one with doors that closed hermetically.... These hermetically closed vans are called ‘dushegubky’, which in Russian means ‘soul killer’. They already bring along dead people who don’t have to be shot anymore. The people are poisoned during the drive by gases and exhaust fumes that are created by the combustion of gasoline in the motor. This because the exhaust is led through a special valve into the inside of the van instead of freely vanishing into the air as it normally would, and thus the people are killed by the carbon monoxide.
From the deposition of Chelmo gas van driver Walter Burmeister at the trial before the Bonn County Court against the members of Sonderkommando Lange (StA Bonn AZ: 8 Js 52/60 (AZ. ZSL 203 AR-Z 69/59, Volume I, pages 138-141, quoted in Kogon Langbein/Rückerl et al, as above, page 114):
[…]Die Wagen waren mittelschwere Renault-Lastwagen mit Ottomotor. Sie ließen sich schlecht fahren, weil sie nicht einen so großen Wendekreis hatten. Der zeitweise hinzugekommene dritte Wagen war wohl ein schwerer. Die Wagen hatten Kastenaufbau mit einer großen Zweiflügeltür an der Rückseite, ähnlich wie Möbelwagen.[…]
My translation:
[...]The vans were medium size Renault trucks with Otto engines. They were hard to drive because they didn’t have so big a turning circle. The temporarily added third van must have been a heavy one. The vans had a box-like buildup with a big two-wing door at the back side, similar to furniture vans.[...]
From a report written by in Soviet captivity by SS-Hauptscharführer Walter Piller, former member of the Chelmno staff (ZSL Volume 411, Part VII, pages 16 and following, quoted in Kogon/Langbein/Rückerl et al, page 141):
[...]Während der Fahrt wurde durch den Kraftfahrer Laabs ein Ventil geöffnet, durch welches Gas einströmte, welches die Insassen in 2-3 Minuten tötete. Hierbei handelte es sich um Gase, die durch den Benzinmotor erzeugt wurden.[...]
.

My translation:
[...]During the drive the driver Laabs opened a valve, through which gas streamed in, which killed those inside within 2-3 minutes. These were gases that had been created by the gasoline motor.[...]
.

Gasoline engines, only gasoline engines. Where are Smith’s famous diesel engines?
Even if it was a gasoline engine, that doesn't make the story true.
Sure. If he can’t make a fuss about the type of engine, the Reverend turns to Plan B and alleges that Burmeister may have lied. Never mind that his deposition coincides with those of numerous other witness and is corroborated by documentary evidence – it doesn’t fit into the Reverend’s bubble and is not suitable for “technical” herrings, so it must be a lie. A very instructive insight into the Reverend’s mind.
In any case, I have found two lies so far: one Soviet and one from the Holo-industry.
Inaccuracies regarding irrelevant minor details, which is the best that the Reverend can hope to demonstrate, are not what I would call “lies”. That term is more appropriately applied to the propaganda nonsense that the Reverend and like-minded True Believers try to sell.
Last edited by Roberto on 18 Apr 2002 19:16, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

INACCURATE DETAILS...

Post by Scott Smith » 18 Apr 2002 12:34

No murder-weapon/No murder.

Gotta grab a few hours of sleep now. See ya' later, Believer.
:)

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 18 Apr 2002 12:52

Scott Smith wrote:No murder-weapon/No murder.
A royal display of Smithsonian silliness.

Eventual uncertainties about certain details of a murder weapon don’t mean that there wasn’t one, do they?

Especially if there’s a lot of conclusive documentary and eyewitness evidence to large-scale mass killings that the True Believer can’t explain away.

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

SONDERKOMMANDO Reunion

Post by Scott Smith » 18 Apr 2002 23:16

Hans wrote:To reach this conclusion, the evidence is completely irrelevant, the number of survivers from the Sonderkommando doesn't matter nor does they testimony.
You make a valid point. As I said before, I don't dismiss the testimony entirely, but I am inclined to qualify it or be skeptical of it--the same as I would an evangelical Serpent Handler in the Appalachians "Bearing Witness on the Rapture."

And, as I said, I'm not an expert on Auschwitz. I haven't even read Mr. Pressac and Doctor of "Moral Certainties" himself, Jan van Pelt, neither of whom are engineers by the way. The former is a pharmacist and the later a professor of architectural history. Neither are engineers any more than I have a contractor's license in the state of Massachusetts. Maybe some day I will have the knowledge on this topic to debate the Birkenau engineering competently.

Until then, I am skeptical--but, unlike some of my sparring partners, I make no claims other than bewildered disbelief. I'm sorry if this seems irascible. I do consider it possible that due to overcrowding Höß might have liquidated inmates who could not work, as per Himmler's instructions--but a wholesale Jewish extermination program is going to be a little harder sell. I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy either.

I'm simply not going to be convinced just because Jews suffered and can't forget to stop telling us about it--those who basically have their own cruel Lebensraum imperative going on in the Holy Land, enabled by the Diaspora and perpetually needing to be justified somehow.

We both know that the Jews DID suffer a cruel fate during the war, so what's the big deal? I never said that all of these Nazis were honorable men.

Best Regards,
Scott

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 19 Apr 2002 10:06

Hans wrote:
To reach this conclusion, the evidence is completely irrelevant, the number of survivers from the Sonderkommando doesn't matter nor does they testimony.


You make a valid point.
Something I still have to see from Reverend Smith.
As I said before, I don't dismiss the testimony entirely, but I am inclined to qualify it or be skeptical of it—
Of course. To the extent that there are reasonable considerations behind your “skepticism” and not – as is the case – just wishful thinking, you even have a chance to be taken seriously.
the same as I would an evangelical Serpent Handler in the Appalachians "Bearing Witness on the Rapture."
No, buddy. The same as you would any other witness to a crime.
And, as I said, I'm not an expert on Auschwitz.
You know nothing at all about it, I would say. And with your blindfolded True Believer approach, you are not likely to ever know anything.
I haven't even read Mr. Pressac and Doctor of "Moral Certainties" himself, Jan van Pelt
Of course not. The Reverend just reads Leuchter, Rudolf, Mattogno and like-minded propaganda charlatans. Hence his woeful ignorance.
, neither of whom are engineers by the way.
Both of whom have nevertheless thoroughly taken the fathomless nonsense of Leuchter et al apart.
The former is a pharmacist and the later a professor of architectural history. Neither are engineers any more than I have a contractor's license in the state of Massachusetts. Maybe some day I will have the knowledge on this topic to debate the Birkenau engineering competently.
To the extent that it matters at all, it is there already – but the Reverend, as he cheerfully admits himself, refuses to look at it and prefers to let himself be lulled in by the lies of his fellow “Revisionists”.
Until then, I am skeptical
“Skeptical” is the last thing our faithful Reverend is.
--but, unlike some of my sparring partners, I make no claims other than bewildered disbelief.
Smith’s opponents make no “claims” – they just follow the evidence where it leads. Which is what Smith stubbornly refuses to do since he knows that the results would not fit into his ideological bubble – hence the “disbelief” that is in fact bewildered due to the utter lack of any reason behind it.
I'm sorry if this seems irascible. I do consider it possible that due to overcrowding Höß might have liquidated inmates who could not work, as per Himmler's instructions--but a wholesale Jewish extermination program is going to be a little harder sell.
Why, buddy, can you all of a sudden account for the fate of about a million people who disappeared from the face of the earth behind the gates of Auschwitz-Birkenau? Have you found a plausible answer to these often-asked questions:

1. 69,025 Jews are known to have been taken to Auschwitz-Birkenau from France. 27,220 of them were registered at the camp. What happened to the rest?

2. 25,260 Jews are known to have been taken to Auschwitz-Birkenau from Belgium. 8,735 of them were registered at the camp. What happened to the rest?

3. 56,575 Jews are known to have been taken to Auschwitz-Birkenau from the Netherlands. 18,270 of them were registered at the camp. What happened to the rest?

4. 55,655 Jews are known to have been taken to Auschwitz-Birkenau from Greece. 12,760 of them were registered at the camp. What happened to the rest?

5. On 27 March 1942, Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels wrote in his diary:
Aus dem Generalgouvernement werden jetzt, bei Lublin beginnend, die Juden nach dem Osten abgeschoben. Es wird hier ein ziemlich barbarisches und nicht näher zu beschreibendes Verfahren angewandt, und von den Juden selbst bleibt nicht mehr viel übrig. Im großen und ganzen kann man wohl feststellen, daß 60 Prozent davon liquidiert werden müssen, während nur 40 Prozent bei der Arbeit eingesetzt werden können.
the English translation of which is:
Begining with Lublin, the Jews are now being deported to the east. Here a fairly barbaric process is being employed - one not to be described more precisely, and of the Jews themselves, not much is left over. On the whole, one can confirm that 60% of them have to be liquidated, while only 40% are able to be put to work.
What was Goebbels talking about?

6. In his speech at Posen on 6 October 1943, Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler said the following, among other things:
Es trat an uns die Frage heran: Wie ist es mit den Frauen und Kindern? Ich habe mich entschlossen, auch hier eine ganz klare Lösung zu finden. Ich hielt mich nämlich nicht für berechtigt, die Männer auszurotten- sprich also, umzubringen oder umbringen zu lassen - und die Rächer in Gestalt der Kinder für unsere Söhne und Enkel groß werden zu lassen. Es mußte der schwere Entschluß gefaßt werden, dieses Volk von der Erde verschwinden zu lassen.
the English translation of which is:
We came to the question: what to with the women and children? I decided to find a clear solution here as well. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men - that is, to kill them or have them killed - and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their childreen to grow up. The difficult decision had to be taken to make this people disappear from the earth.
What was Himmler talking about?

7. On page 3 of the Political Testament drawn up shortly before his death, Adolf Hitler wrote the following:
Ich habe aber auch keinen Zweifel darüber gelassen, daß, wenn die Völker Europas wieder nur als Aktienpakete dieser internationalen Geld- und Finanzverschwörer angesehen werden, dann auch jenes Volk mit zur Verantwortung gezogen werden wird, das der eigentliche Schuldige an dieses mörderischen Ringen ist: Das Judentum! Ich habe weiter keinen darüber im Unklaren gelassen, daß dieses Mal nicht nur Millionen Kinder von Europäern der arischen Völker verhungern werden, nicht nur Millionen erwachsener Männer den Tod erleiden und nicht nur Hunderttausende an Frauen und Kindern in den Städten verbrannt und zu Tode bombardiert werden dürfen, ohne daß der eigentliche Schuldige, wenn auch durch humanere Mittel, seine Schuld zu büssen hat.


The English translation of which is:
I have also left no doubt that, if the nations of Europe are again to be regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by those international money and finance conspirators, then that race, Jewry, which is the real guilty party in this murderous struggle, will be saddled with the responsibility. I also made it clear that this time, not only would millions of children of European Aryan races starve, not only would millions of grown men meet their death, and not only would millions of women and children be burned or bombed to death in the cities, but that the real culprit would atone for his guilt, even if by more humane means.


What "atonement" and what "more humane means" was the Führer referring to?

The figures in questions 1 to 4 are from page 238 of the study Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, edited by Kogon, Langbein, Rückerl et al, Frankfurt am Main, 1986.

The quotes for questions 5 to 7 and other pertinent quotes from high-ranking Nazis can be found under the following link:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/

Let’s hear, Reverend.
I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy either.
You don’t have to believe in anything, old pal. You just have to open your eyes, observe and think a little bit.
I'm simply not going to be convinced just because Jews suffered and can't forget to stop telling us about it—
Instructive as it is how the Reverend sees things, he should know by now that what we know about the Nazi genocide does not come from them bloody Jews constantly telling us about it. It is the result of five and a half decades of criminal investigation, mainly by West German criminal justice authorities, and the research of competent and objective historians many of whom are not Jews.
those who basically have their own cruel Lebensraum imperative going on in the Holy Land, enabled by the Diaspora and perpetually needing to be justified somehow.
The greatest weakness of “Revisionist” True Believers is that they can’t help being themselves. Thanks for another showpiece of your pathetic obsession with the Chosen People, Reverend. I will add it to my list of illustrative Smithsonian quotes.
We both know that the Jews DID suffer a cruel fate during the war, so what's the big deal?
The deal is that we wouldn’t even be talking much about it on this forum if it were not for True Believers like the Reverend trying to deny or play down what their beloved Nazis did to Jews and other “undesirables”.
I never said that all of these Nazis were honorable men.
The emphasis being on “all”, ain’t that so, Reverend?

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

NAZIS

Post by Scott Smith » 19 Apr 2002 10:19

Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:I never said that all of these Nazis were honorable men.
The emphasis being on “all”, ain’t that so, Reverend?
Well, I don't think you can say they were ALL dishonorable men. No, I don't think you can say that at all.
:wink:

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”