German for "Uprooting"

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 19 Apr 2002 23:22

I think it is you who has the ideological blinders on if you DON'T think that the Holocaust and the attitudes of the Diaspora (particularly the American Jews) to the Holy Land infinitely complicates the Mid-East "peace process," what there is left of it, that is.
We are talking about the Third Reich and its crimes here, not about the attitudes of them bloody Jews and the Mid-East “peace process”. What I think about these issues we can discuss somewhere else. Here they are off-topic, and Smith’s constant links to them say much about his own mind but nothing else.
Anyway, I don't think you really know what Isolationism is but it is not xenophobia or racism, although I admit to no more or less ethnocentrism than anyone else.
I didn’t say Isolationism is xenophobia or racism. It is definitely an indication of bigot nationalism, however, just as obsession with supposedly malevolent Jewish attitudes and admiration and apology of a racist regime are an indication of racism/anti-Semitism.
The term "Isolationist" was coined by the Liberal-Interventionists, our enemies. In reality, it is non-interventionism in imperialist wars and moral crusades--but coupled with a strong readiness for defense in case of attack.
Bigot nationalism, as I presumed. Let the bloody world take itself apart as long as it doesn’t knock on our door. However powerful and influential, we are responsible for nothing but our own fat bellies.
That's why all of the "Isolationists" or America-Firsters supported the war after Pearl Harbor. However, they did not do enough to expose Roosevelt's guilty machinations in favor of war before it was too late.
Too late for whom? FDR’s “guilty machinations” actually came too late for many victims of Nazi and Japanese brutality, but better late then never.
The best way to promote peace is with honest neutrality;
Sure, peace for our own fat bellies while Adolf turns Eastern Europe into a slave labor camp and a graveyard and the Japanese militarists do the same in China. Assuming, of course, that those gentlemen will not come knocking on our door once they have swallowed up everything else.
the USA made a corrupt bargain in propping-up Churchill,
If it was to the detriment of good old Adolf, they did the right thing.
and the world is still paying the price.
What price is that? A world dominated by totalitarian dictatorships right or left would have been an incomparably higher price than whatever resulted from the Allied victory.
A messianistic global superpower is the worst possible outcome short of a nuclear war.
If you compare the number of people murdered by that “messianistic global superpower” throughout this century with the number of people murdered by less powerful Nazi Germany between 1941 and 1944, the utter absurdity of this statement becomes obvious.

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Post by Dan » 20 Apr 2002 01:27

Kaschner, Witbooi's picture is on today's Namibian currency. The English used to thumb their noses at the Germans by letting the Nama cross back and forth, but the Nama eventually abused this by large scale cattle rustling, which helped seal the fate of the rebellion because the English cracked down on the border crossing.

Thanks for the interesting view on the meaning of ausrotten.

Regards
Dan

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Scott Smith
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GLOBALONEY

Post by Scott Smith » 20 Apr 2002 07:54

Just two points, and then, in order to keep this one on-track for everybody else, Roberto had better start a new thread, if he wants to discuss it further.
Roberto wrote:We are talking about the Third Reich and its crimes here, not about the attitudes of them bloody Jews and the Mid-East “peace process”. What I think about these issues we can discuss somewhere else. Here they are off-topic, and Smith’s constant links to them say much about his own mind but nothing else.
You are mistaken if you think that modern history begins in 1945 and is not the product of the past. History is very relevant to the present; that is one of the most important reasons to study History. You seem to have an obsession with NS-Verbrechen--so what's YOUR excuse?
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:Anyway, I don't think you really know what Isolationism is but it is not xenophobia or racism, although I admit to no more or less ethnocentrism than anyone else.
I didn’t say Isolationism is xenophobia or racism. It is definitely an indication of bigot nationalism.
I am not a bigoted nationalist, my good friend.

If you had understood where I am coming from after all these years then you would know that I am against a naked messianic Democracy-Capitalism that bombs people into submission, holds show trials to justify Unconditional Surrender, and tries to save the world from itself with a jingoistic Christ-complex.

A proper American exceptionalism, in my view, means neutrality and social and economic justice, not Leftist interventionism or Rightist imperialism.

I do not, however, understand where YOU are coming from with your NS-Verbrechen vision-quest. That, to me, seems not too relevant. Hitler isn't about the crash the party, after all.
:)

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Roberto
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Re: GLOBALONEY

Post by Roberto » 20 Apr 2002 20:23

Scott Smith wrote:Just two points, and then, in order to keep this one on-track for everybody else, Roberto had better start a new thread, if he wants to discuss it further.
Roberto wrote:We are talking about the Third Reich and its crimes here, not about the attitudes of them bloody Jews and the Mid-East “peace process”. What I think about these issues we can discuss somewhere else. Here they are off-topic, and Smith’s constant links to them say much about his own mind but nothing else.
You are mistaken if you think that modern history begins in 1945 and is not the product of the past.
I don't see whence it is supposed to become apparent that modern history begins in 1945, but perhaps the Reverend can enlighten me.
History is very relevant to the present; that is one of the most important reasons to study History.
Exactly, my friend. And also one of the main reason to keep it from being falsified by propagandists such as the "Revisionists".
You seem to have an obsession with NS-Verbrechen--so what's YOUR excuse?
The Reverend seems to confuse a German's interest in a sinister chapter of German history with an "obsession with NS-Verbrechen", which I wouldn't been talking much about if it were not for the attempts of certain people to deny them or play them down. The term "obsession" fits the Reverend's infatuation with Jewish/Israeli malevolency much better, in my opinion.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:Anyway, I don't think you really know what Isolationism is but it is not xenophobia or racism, although I admit to no more or less ethnocentrism than anyone else.
I didn’t say Isolationism is xenophobia or racism. It is definitely an indication of bigot nationalism.
I am not a bigoted nationalist, my good friend.
Well, in that case you have done precious little to convince me thereof. But it's never too late to start.
If you had understood where I am coming from after all these years then you would know that I am against a naked messianic Democracy-Capitalism that bombs people into submission, holds show trials to justify Unconditional Surrender, and tries to save the world from itself with a jingoistic Christ-complex.
Why, that's exactly what I've understood. The problem, in case you haven't noticed, is that I think the kind of "Democracy-Capitalism" you ramble against only exists in your own mind, as do the "show trials" that were actually everything other than show trials, however desperately you try to discredit them because their findings don't fit into what you would like to believe.
A proper American exceptionalism, in my view, means neutrality and social and economic justice, not Leftist interventionism or Rightist imperialism.
Nothing against social and economic justice, in regard to which the US have very much to learn from even the less prosperous European countries like Portugal. As to neutrality, that may be the proper approach for a country like Switzerland, but not for a world power like the US. And as to "Leftist interventionism or Rightist imperialism", it sure is funny to hear them condemned by an adulator of good old Adolf who also sympathizes with Uncle Joe's smashing "a few heads" (20 million or so, as a matter of fact) in order to make his "omelett".
I do not, however, understand where YOU are coming from with your NS-Verbrechen vision-quest.
Easy, buddy. The world of critical thinking and elementary common sense unobstructed by ideology. A world you leave every time you start discussing certain topics, without apparently noticing it.
That, to me, seems not too relevant. Hitler isn't about the crash the party, after all.
No, he isn't. But as you correctly said at the beginning, history is very relevant to the present, which is one of the most important reasons to study history.

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Post by michael mills » 21 Apr 2002 06:16

Mr Muehlenkamp wrote:
Highly suspicious, as a matter of fact. My late father was born in 1932, my mother in 1935. I'll leave it to you to calculate the age they had in 1945.
Perhaps you could inform us of the circumstances under which your parents migrated to a place like Colombia, where I understand "la violencia" had been raging ever since the 1940s. It is understandable why Germans would migrate to relatively developed countries like Argentina and Brazil which already had large German communities as part of a considerable population sector of European origin. Colombia does seem a rather unusual choice.

You have informed us elsewhere on this forum that the German expatriate community in Colombia was a highly nationalistic one, in which Hitler was revered as a great German leader. You seem to have been influenced by that environment in your youth, since you have told us that you flirted with National Socialism at that time ("playfully romanced" was the term you used). Since then you seem to have gone to the opposite extreme in your attitudes.

I consider it legitimate to raise the question of how your background and early experiences in the German expatriate community of Colombia may have engendered your current attitudes to Germany's National Socialist past, which I think it fair to say appear to be very emotionally charged. If you answered that question fully, I think there would be less cause for innuendo.

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Re: GLOBALONEY

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Apr 2002 07:20

Roberto wrote:As to neutrality, that may be the proper approach for a country like Switzerland, but not for a world power like the US.
On the contrary, it is MORE important because you can do infinitely more damage with hydrogen bombs than with the cuckoo clock.
Roberto wrote:I don't see whence it is supposed to become apparent that modern history begins in 1945, but perhaps the Reverend can enlighten me.
I said just the opposite, that modern History does NOT begin in 1945, despite that being an important watershed year of modernity.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:History is very relevant to the present; that is one of the most important reasons to study History.
Exactly, my friend. And also one of the main reason to keep it from being falsified by propagandists such as the "Revisionists".
As soon as we start talking about History in terms of monolithic-certitude we have crossed the borders from History to Theology, Roberto. History consists of points-of-view and how accurately these are represented epistemologically.
:)

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 22 Apr 2002 15:01

michael mills wrote:Mr Muehlenkamp wrote:
Highly suspicious, as a matter of fact. My late father was born in 1932, my mother in 1935. I'll leave it to you to calculate the age they had in 1945.
Perhaps you could inform us of the circumstances under which your parents migrated to a place like Colombia, where I understand "la violencia" had been raging ever since the 1940s. It is understandable why Germans would migrate to relatively developed countries like Argentina and Brazil which already had large German communities as part of a considerable population sector of European origin. Colombia does seem a rather unusual choice.

You have informed us elsewhere on this forum that the German expatriate community in Colombia was a highly nationalistic one, in which Hitler was revered as a great German leader. You seem to have been influenced by that environment in your youth, since you have told us that you flirted with National Socialism at that time ("playfully romanced" was the term you used). Since then you seem to have gone to the opposite extreme in your attitudes.

I consider it legitimate to raise the question of how your background and early experiences in the German expatriate community of Colombia may have engendered your current attitudes to Germany's National Socialist past, which I think it fair to say appear to be very emotionally charged. If you answered that question fully, I think there would be less cause for innuendo.
1. I allow myself to do doubt that Mills knows much about the civil war between liberal and conservative factions known as La Violencia, which ravaged the spectacularly beautiful Colombian countryside between 1948 and 1957 (some date its beginning back to 1945 and place its end in 1962 or even later). Both factions, at any rate, took care to avoid the involvement of foreigners, for whom Colombia was a nice place to live in the late 1950s and 1960s.

2. Mills must be dreaming if he thinks I’ll talk about my family with the likes of him.

3. I don’t think rejecting Germany’s National Socialist past is an “emotionally charged” attitude. It is an attitude of elementary common sense. Unlike Mills, I managed to do by the age of 18 what he hasn’t managed to do until the age of 54: I grew up and became reasonable.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 22 Apr 2002 15:04

Roberto wrote:
As to neutrality, that may be the proper approach for a country like Switzerland, but not for a world power like the US.

On the contrary, it is MORE important because you can do infinitely more damage with hydrogen bombs than with the cuckoo clock.
To the extent there’s a real chance of actual use, that is. But that’s not why Smith calls for neutrality, is it? What he would obviously like to see is the US, despite their power to intervene and to save the lives of people, standing by while butchers like Milosevic, the Somalian warlords or the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan turn the lives of their subjects into hell on earth. Stand by is what they all too often do, unfortunately, but that does not mean the principle is wrong.
Roberto wrote:
I don't see whence it is supposed to become apparent that modern history begins in 1945, but perhaps the Reverend can enlighten me.

I said just the opposite, that modern History does NOT begin in 1945, despite that being an important watershed year of modernity.
Sorry, I had left something out. The statement was to be:

I don't see whence it is supposed to become apparent that I think modern history begins in 1945, but perhaps the Reverend can enlighten me.

Care to comment now, Reverend?
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
History is very relevant to the present; that is one of the most important reasons to study History.

Exactly, my friend. And also one of the main reason to keep it from being falsified by propagandists such as the "Revisionists".

As soon as we start talking about History in terms of monolithic-certitude we have crossed the borders from History to Theology, Roberto.
Exactly, Reverend. Write that behind your ears and tell it to your fellow “Revisionists”, because trying to turn history into their own theology is exactly what you True Believers are doing.
History consists of points-of-view and how accurately these are represented epistemologically.
History consists of points of view that make sense and are supported by evidence. Which means that those of Reverend Smith and his fellow “Revisionists” don’t count.

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Post by ZARATHUSTRA » 27 Apr 2002 14:44

Karl wrote:
Thorfinn is completely right here, unfortunately for those who live in Disneyland.


Hehehe. Again, funny.
Meanings of words change over time, and especially when there is a push by those in power to change them.


This has already been dealt with.
"Your enemy shall ye seek; your war shall ye wage, and for the sake of your thoughts! And if your thoughts succumb, your uprightness shall still shout triumph thereby!"
This must be the confession.

Regards.
Karl, I pass through you people and keep mine eyes open: you do not forgive me for not envying your virtues.

You bite at me, because I say unto you that for small people, small virtues are necessary - and because it is hard for me to understand that small people are necessary!

Here am I still like a cock in a strange farm-yard, at which even the hens peck: but on that account I am not unfriendly to the hens.

I am courteous towards them, as towards all small annoyances; to be prickly towards what is small, seemeth to me wisdom for hedgehogs.

Thus spake Zarathustra.
"Your enemy shall ye seek; your war shall ye wage, and for the sake of your thoughts! And if your thoughts succumb, your uprightness shall still shout triumph thereby!"

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CRUSADES AND FACADES...

Post by Scott Smith » 27 Apr 2002 15:44

medorjurgen wrote:
Roberto wrote:
As to neutrality, that may be the proper approach for a country like Switzerland, but not for a world power like the US.

On the contrary, it is MORE important because you can do infinitely more damage with hydrogen bombs than with the cuckoo clock.
To the extent there’s a real chance of actual use, that is. But that’s not why Smith calls for neutrality, is it? What he would obviously like to see is the US, despite their power to intervene and to save the lives of people, standing by while butchers like Milosevic, the Somalian warlords or the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan turn the lives of their subjects into hell on earth. Stand by is what they all too often do, unfortunately, but that does not mean the principle is wrong.
The principle of crusading to fight Evil is wrong, whether in the Middle Ages or 1917, and to say this does not make one Evil himself--except in the minds of those who see the hand of the Devil behind everything they do not understand. For people wielding hydrogen bombs or smart bombs these are dangerous superstitions to have. Don't you think so, Believer?
:)

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CRUSADES AND FACADES...

Post by ZARATHUSTRA » 28 Apr 2002 17:51

But sure enough there are those to whom virtue meaneth writhing under the lash: and ye have hearkened too much unto their crying!

And others are there who call virtue the slothfulness of their vices; and when once their hatred and jealousy relax the limbs, their "justice" becometh lively and rubbeth its sleepy eyes.

And others are there who are drawn downwards: their devils draw them. But the more they sink, the more ardently gloweth their eye, and the longing for their God.

Ah! their crying also hath reached your ears, ye virtuous ones: "What I am not, that, that is God to me, and virtue!"

And others are there who go along heavily and creakingly, like carts taking stones downhill: they talk much of dignity and virtue - their drag they call virtue!

And others are there who are like eight-day clocks when wound up; they tick, and want people to call ticking - virtue.

Verily, in those have I mine amusement: wherever I find such clocks I shall wind them up with my mockery, and they shall even whirr thereby!

And others are proud of their modicum of righteousness, and for the sake of it do violence to all things: so that the world is drowned in their unrighteousness.

Ah! how ineptly cometh the word "virtue" out of their mouth! And when they say: "I am just," it always soundeth like: "I am just - revenged!"

With their virtues they want to scratch out the eyes of their enemies; and they elevate themselves only that they may lower others.

And again there are those who sit in their swamp, and speak thus from among the bulrushes: "Virtue - that is to sit quietly in the swamp.

We bite no one, and go out of the way of him who would bite; and in all matters we have the opinion that is given us."

And again there are those who love attitudes, and think that virtue is a sort of attitude.

Their knees continually adore, and their hands are eulogies of virtue, but their heart knoweth naught thereof.

And again there are those who regard it as virtue to say: "Virtue is necessary"; but after all they believe only that policemen are necessary.

And many a one who cannot see men's loftiness, calleth it virtue to see their baseness far too well: thus calleth he his evil eye virtue. -

And some want to be edified and raised up, and call it virtue: and others want to be cast down, - and likewise call it virtue.

And thus do almost all think that they participate in virtue; and at least every one claimeth to be an authority on "good" and "evil."

But Zarathustra came not to say unto all those liars and fools: "What do ye know of virtue! What could ye know of virtue!" -

But that ye, my friends, might become weary of the old words which ye have learned from the fools and liars:

That ye might become weary of the words "reward," "retribution," "punishment," "righteous vengeance." -

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"Where solitude endeth, there beginneth the market-place; and where the market-place beginneth, there beginneth also the noise of the great actors, and the buzzing of the poison-flies."

Thus spake Zarathustra.
"Your enemy shall ye seek; your war shall ye wage, and for the sake of your thoughts! And if your thoughts succumb, your uprightness shall still shout triumph thereby!"

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 29 Apr 2002 12:53

The principle of crusading to fight Evil is wrong, whether in the Middle Ages or 1917,
… or 1933, for that matter.
and to say this does not make one Evil himself--except in the minds of those who see the hand of the Devil
…, or the Jewish World Conspiracy, behind everything they do not understand or don't want to understand.
For people wielding hydrogen bombs or smart bombs these are dangerous superstitions to have.
Fortunately they don’t adhere to the superstitions that some of their erstwhile opponents used to adhere to and that are still cherished by the present-day apologists and supporters of those people.

Don't you think so, Believer?

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Post by ZARATHUSTRA » 30 Apr 2002 02:28

medorjurgen wrote:
The principle of crusading to fight Evil is wrong, whether in the Middle Ages or 1917,
… or 1933, for that matter.
and to say this does not make one Evil himself--except in the minds of those who see the hand of the Devil
…, or the Jewish World Conspiracy, behind everything they do not understand or don't want to understand.
For people wielding hydrogen bombs or smart bombs these are dangerous superstitions to have.
Fortunately they don’t adhere to the superstitions that some of their erstwhile opponents used to adhere to and that are still cherished by the present-day apologists and supporters of those people.

Don't you think so, Believer?

Image
LO, THIS is the tarantula's den! Would'st thou see the tarantula itself? Here hangeth its web: touch this, so that it may tremble.

There cometh the tarantula willingly: Welcome, tarantula! Black on thy back is thy triangle and symbol; and I know also what is in thy soul.

Revenge is in thy soul: wherever thou bitest, there ariseth black scab; with revenge, thy poison maketh the soul giddy!

Thus do I speak unto you in parable, ye who make the soul giddy, ye preachers of equality! Tarantulas are ye unto me, and secretly revengeful ones!

But I will soon bring your hiding-places to the light: therefore do I laugh in your face my laughter of the height.

Therefore do I tear at your web, that your rage may lure you out of your den of lies, and that your revenge may leap forth from behind your word "justice."

Because, for man to be redeemed from revenge - that is for me the bridge to the highest hope, and a rainbow after long storms.

Otherwise, however, would the tarantulas have it. "Let it be very justice for the world to become full of the storms of our vengeance" - thus do they talk to one another.

"Vengeance will we use, and insult, against all who are not like us" - thus do the tarantula-hearts pledge themselves.

"And 'Will to Equality' - that itself shall henceforth be the name of virtue; and against all that hath power will we raise an outcry!"

Ye preachers of equality, the tyrant-frenzy of impotence crieth thus in you for "equality": your most secret tyrant-longings disguise themselves thus in virtue-words!

Fretted conceit and suppressed envy - perhaps your fathers' conceit and envy: in you break they forth as flame and frenzy of vengeance.

What the father hath hid cometh out in the son; and oft have I found in the son the father's revealed secret.

Inspired ones they resemble: but it is not the heart that inspireth them - but vengeance. And when they become subtle and cold, it is not spirit, but envy, that maketh them so.

Their jealousy leadeth them also into thinkers' paths; and this is the sign of their jealousy - they always go too far: so that their fatigue hath at last to go to sleep on the snow.

In all their lamentations soundeth vengeance, in all their eulogies is maleficence; and being judge seemeth to them bliss.

But thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!

They are people of bad race and lineage; out of their countenances peer the hangman and the sleuth-hound.

Distrust all those who talk much of their justice! Verily, in their souls not only honey is lacking.

And when they call themselves "the good and just," forget not, that for them to be Pharisees, nothing is lacking but - power!

My friends, I will not be mixed up and confounded with others.

There are those who preach my doctrine of life, and are at the same time preachers of equality, and tarantulas.

That they speak in favour of life, though they sit in their den, these poison-spiders, and withdrawn from life - is because they would thereby do injury.

To those would they thereby do injury who have power at present: for with those the preaching of death is still most at home.

Were it otherwise, then would the tarantulas teach otherwise: and they themselves were formerly the best world-maligners and heretic-burners.

With these preachers of equality will I not be mixed up and confounded. For thus speaketh justice unto me: "Men are not equal."

And neither shall they become so! What would be my love to the Superman, if I spake otherwise?

On a thousand bridges and piers shall they throng to the future, and always shall there be more war and inequality among them: thus doth my great love make me speak!

Inventors of figures and phantoms shall they be in their hostilities; and with those figures and phantoms shall they yet fight with each other the supreme fight!

Good and evil, and rich and poor, and high and low, and all names of values: weapons shall they be, and sounding signs, that life must again and again surpass itself!

Aloft will it build itself with columns and stairs - life itself into remote distances would it gaze, and out towards blissful beauties - therefore doth it require elevation!

And because it requireth elevation, therefore doth it require steps, and variance of steps and climbers! To rise striveth life, and in rising to surpass itself.

And just behold, my friends! Here where the tarantula's den is, riseth aloft an ancient temple's ruins - just behold it with enlightened eyes!

Verily, he who here towered aloft his thoughts in stone, knew as well as the wisest ones about the secret of life!

That there is struggle and inequality even in beauty, and war for power and supremacy: that doth he here teach us in the plainest parable.

How divinely do vault and arch here contrast in the struggle: how with light and shade they strive against each other, the divinely striving ones. -

Thus, steadfast and beautiful, let us also be enemies, my friends! Divinely will we strive against one another! -

Alas! There hath the tarantula bit me myself, mine old enemy! Divinely steadfast and beautiful, it hath bit me on the finger!

"Punishment must there be, and justice" - so thinketh it: "not gratuitously shall he here sing songs in honour of enmity!"

Yea, it hath revenged itself! And alas! now will it make my soul also dizzy with revenge!

That I may not turn dizzy, however, bind me fast, my friends, to this pillar! Rather will I be a pillar-saint than a whirl of vengeance!

Verily, no cyclone or whirlwind is Zarathustra: and if he be a dancer, he is not at all a tarantula-dancer! -

Thus spake Zarathustra.
"Your enemy shall ye seek; your war shall ye wage, and for the sake of your thoughts! And if your thoughts succumb, your uprightness shall still shout triumph thereby!"

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Post by Dan » 30 Apr 2002 02:42

"LO, THIS is the tarantula's den! Would'st thou see the tarantula itself? Here hangeth its web: touch this, so that it may tremble."

Tarantulas don't make webs. Why can't you get a new hero?

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THE TARANTULA'S WEB...

Post by Scott Smith » 30 Apr 2002 03:35

Dan wrote:"LO, THIS is the tarantula's den! Would'st thou see the tarantula itself? Here hangeth its web: touch this, so that it may tremble."

Tarantulas don't make webs. Why can't you get a new hero?
Ah, but Nietzsche speaks to we-the-damned on so many levels.
:mrgreen:

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