Massacre in Ciepielów

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Peter K
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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by Peter K » 14 Aug 2009 13:23

From the German album on Ebay.de:

The photo at the bottom is new and interesting. The photo above it is already known (murderred by armoured car).

Image

Photos of German Feldlazarett in Daniszow (4 kilometres from Lipsko) - around 80 - 84 Polish and 33 - 41 German wounded soldiers + also around 2 - 3 sick German soldiers were transported there after the battle.

Image

Another photo from Daniszow:

Image

Description below this photo says: "Ein polnisches Kind, unschuldiges Opfer des Krieges, wird auf dem Hauptverbandsplatz der Sanitätsabteilung der 29. „Falke“-Division bei Daniszow gebracht. Solche Bilder unterschlägt die neue Anti-Wehrmacht-Ausstellung."

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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by Ypenburg » 14 Aug 2009 17:32

You appear to forget that those events were widely described by many witnesses - even if most of them are dead now.


Wrong. You appear to forget I'm not questioning the massacre. I'm questioning the so called "evidence" used to proof these foto's are related to the massacre.

If posted a lot of questions in regard to those claims, and so far I've seen any evidence that those picture's are related to the massacre. And I asked you how 1 picture could be related to 2 spots on the map f.e. You're only replay is you come with a lot of witness-statements, but again I'm not challenging the massacre.

My claim is there is a lot of "tunnelvision" at work to make the foto's fit into the massacre-story.
So since you claim most wittnesses were interviewed in 2008 and 2009 maybe you can provide us with witness-statements who, confronted with the foto's, recognised them etc.

In order to give a small example of what can happen with picture's:
The picture on the bottom of your posting on 12 Aug 2009 12:01, has f.e. been used twice:
1) in the book "Polenfeldzug" (1982) claiming it to be evidence for the Ciepielòw-massacre, and
2) "Chronik des Zweiten Weltkrieges" (Augsburg, 1997) claiming it to be evidence of the killing of Polisch civillians (claimed by the Germans to be partisans of the Bialystok-area) from Szailicze, Wolkowysk, 1943(!).

That's why I wrote that those picture's could have been anywhere in a forest in Polen.....

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Richard Hargreaves
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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by Richard Hargreaves » 14 Aug 2009 17:54

Domen121 wrote:Original German text of the so called "München account" ("Unser erstes Gefecht in Polen") is available here:

http://forum.historia.org.pl/index.php? ... 9687&st=15


There's a condensed account based on the diary which Domen very kindly posted (wish I'd had that for my book :) ) in Böhler, Jochen, Auftakt zum Vernichtungskrieg – Die Wehrmacht in Polen 1939, Fischer, Frankfurt am Main, 2006, p.172.

In an anonymous letter to the Polish Consulate in Munich in August 1950, featuring an extract from a German soldier’s personal diary, there was a description of an execution by 11 Kompanie, 15 Regiment, 29 (mot) Infanterie Division, carried out on September 8th in Ciepielow. The execution followed a furious battle in forest, during which a hauptmann fell as a result of a bullet to his head. “An hour later everyone gathers in the street. The company counts 14 dead, including Hauptmann von Lewinski. The regimental commander, Oberst Wessel [Kassel] is furious, a monocle in his eye: ‘Pure cheek to want to stop us – and they’ve shot my Lewinski.’ He says that we are dealing with partisans, although each one of the 300 Poles captured is wearing a uniform. They have to take off their tunics. So now they look more like partisans. Five minutes later I hear a dozen German machine-pistols bark. I hurry in that direction and see the 300 Polish prisoners lying in the ditch, shot. I risk taking two photographs.”

which in turn became this in my Blitzkrieg Unleashed, pp.238-9:

There were at least sixty documented incidents of German soldiers executing captured Polish soldiers, individual or en masse. The most blatant, most brutal act occurred in broad daylight on the afternoon of Saturday, 9 September, on the edge of Ciepielow, twenty miles southeast of Radom. For an hour the Poles of 74th Infantry Regiment offered bitter resistance in the woods around the town, before some 300 soldiers surrendered to 15th Motorised Infantry Regiment. An hour after the battle, regimental commander Oberstleutnant Walter Wessel, strutted down a road where fourteen of his men had died. A monocle fixed firmly in his eye, he surveyed the dead, including a popular Hauptmann, Lewinski. Wessel was furious. ‘Pure cheek to want to stop us,’ he raged, declaring the 300 captured Poles were not soldiers but partisans – even though each man wore a uniform. Wessel ordered the prisoners to remove their jackets, then they were marched off down the road single-file. ‘Five minutes later I hear a dozen German machine-pistols bark,’ one Landser wrote in his diary. ‘I hurry in that direction and see the 300 Polish prisoners lying in the ditch, shot.’

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karlo
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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by karlo » 16 Aug 2009 03:39

Richard Hargreaves wrote:
Domen121 wrote:Original German text of the so called "München account" ("Unser erstes Gefecht in Polen") is available here:

http://forum.historia.org.pl/index.php? ... 9687&st=15


There's a condensed account based on the diary which Domen very kindly posted (wish I'd had that for my book :) ) in Böhler, Jochen, Auftakt zum Vernichtungskrieg – Die Wehrmacht in Polen 1939, Fischer, Frankfurt am Main, 2006, p.172.

In an anonymous letter to the Polish Consulate in Munich in August 1950, featuring an extract from a German soldier’s personal diary, there was a description of an execution by 11 Kompanie, 15 Regiment, 29 (mot) Infanterie Division, carried out on September 8th in Ciepielow. The execution followed a furious battle in forest, during which a hauptmann fell as a result of a bullet to his head. “An hour later everyone gathers in the street. The company counts 14 dead, including Hauptmann von Lewinski. The regimental commander, Oberst Wessel [Kassel] is furious, a monocle in his eye: ‘Pure cheek to want to stop us – and they’ve shot my Lewinski.’ He says that we are dealing with partisans, although each one of the 300 Poles captured is wearing a uniform. They have to take off their tunics. So now they look more like partisans. Five minutes later I hear a dozen German machine-pistols bark. I hurry in that direction and see the 300 Polish prisoners lying in the ditch, shot. I risk taking two photographs.”

which in turn became this in my Blitzkrieg Unleashed, pp.238-9:

There were at least sixty documented incidents of German soldiers executing captured Polish soldiers, individual or en masse. The most blatant, most brutal act occurred in broad daylight on the afternoon of Saturday, 9 September, on the edge of Ciepielow, twenty miles southeast of Radom. For an hour the Poles of 74th Infantry Regiment offered bitter resistance in the woods around the town, before some 300 soldiers surrendered to 15th Motorised Infantry Regiment. An hour after the battle, regimental commander Oberstleutnant Walter Wessel, strutted down a road where fourteen of his men had died. A monocle fixed firmly in his eye, he surveyed the dead, including a popular Hauptmann, Lewinski. Wessel was furious. ‘Pure cheek to want to stop us,’ he raged, declaring the 300 captured Poles were not soldiers but partisans – even though each man wore a uniform. Wessel ordered the prisoners to remove their jackets, then they were marched off down the road single-file. ‘Five minutes later I hear a dozen German machine-pistols bark,’ one Landser wrote in his diary. ‘I hurry in that direction and see the 300 Polish prisoners lying in the ditch, shot.’


So wessel is furious...and out of the 300 captured ..in retaliation..he marches 14 down the road without their tunics plus 3 officers ..for the loss of his lewinski...who retain their tunics and they are lined up in the ditch and shot...either by mg34s mounted on an armoured truck or by a load of lads with mp's...some dont die instantly but are left in their death throes....hence the two that look like they have moved are being watched by 2 germans standing above them...a few pics are snapped and the locals bury them nearby...karlo

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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by David Thompson » 16 Aug 2009 05:19

karlo -- You wrote: (1)
So wessel is furious...and out of the 300 captured ..in retaliation..he marches 14 down the road without their tunics plus 3 officers ..for the loss of his lewinski...

You might want to re-read the posts so far. Considering the accounts as a group, more than 14 Polish POWs were killed in this incident. While the account which immediately precedes your post says:

An hour later everyone gathers in the street. The company counts 14 dead, including Hauptmann von Lewinski.

this refers to the German casualties, not the number of Polish POWs killed in revenge.

(2)
who retain their tunics and they are lined up in the ditch and shot...

I don't think you've got this right either. In the photographs we've seen here, only a few of the executed POWs are wearing tunics. Most of them appear to be dressed in the shirts the troops wore under their tunics.

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karlo
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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by karlo » 16 Aug 2009 13:04

David Thompson wrote:karlo -- You wrote: (1)
So wessel is furious...and out of the 300 captured ..in retaliation..he marches 14 down the road without their tunics plus 3 officers ..for the loss of his lewinski...

You might want to re-read the posts so far. Considering the accounts as a group, more than 14 Polish POWs were killed in this incident. While the account which immediately precedes your post says:

An hour later everyone gathers in the street. The company counts 14 dead, including Hauptmann von Lewinski.

this refers to the German casualties, not the number of Polish POWs killed in revenge.

(2)
who retain their tunics and they are lined up in the ditch and shot...

I don't think you've got this right either. In the photographs we've seen here, only a few of the executed POWs are wearing tunics. Most of them appear to be dressed in the shirts the troops wore under their tunics.


yes i know the 14 refers to the german killed and i know that most of the POWs had their tunics off lying in the ditch...what im saying is that possibly in retaliation for the death of the 14 germans killed that after the battle that 14 POW soldiers not wearing tunics where taken along with 3 POW officers who are still wearing their tunics inclding the doctor mentioned in the womans account making up the 17 that were shot in the ditch judging by the photos...she says 17 were shot and buried by locals close to the ditch

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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by Peter K » 07 Aug 2010 20:29

Interesting article:

"Between Ilza and Ciepielow. 09.09.1939 * in a diary of a soldier of the Wehrmacht":

http://www.strony.com/1%20Miedzy%20Ilza ... oku%20.htm

The article is in Polish but there are numerous scans of the diary (and some other German documents).

Author of that diary is anonymus. He served in Aufklarungs-Abteilung (mot.) 29. What he describes - according to the author of the article (who researched Polish sources in order to find out what Polish unit fought there and how Polish sources describe this combat) - are combats of reinforced AA(mot.)29 against a Polish "group of remnants" under command of Major Józef Koper. After fierce fightings the German Abteilung was forced to retreat towards Kazanow by Polish soldiers. Mjr. Koper's group consisted of remnants of II. battalion of 8th Inf.Rgt., small elements of II. battalion of 7th Inf.Rgt. and a group of soldiers from the divisional cavalry squadron of 3. Inf.Div.

* One day after combats of Inf.Rgt.(mot.)15 and the massacre of Polish POWs from the Btl. of Mjr. Pelc.

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Marcus
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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by Marcus » 30 Apr 2013 17:42

Reposted from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1788996
wm wrote:
Marcus Wendel wrote:Are there for example any memorial to the Poles of the 74th Infantry Regiment that were killed by soldiers from Infanterie-Regiment 15 in 1939?
There is, but a recent work by Janusz Ryt says it has never happened, and the number of executed Polish soldiers there was a dozen or so - in unrelated to the supposed war crime incidents.
And he speculates that the single proof of that crime was prepared by the communist secret services in order to smear the yet-to-be created Bundeswehr.

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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by Lokanski » 01 May 2013 08:11

Marcus Wendel wrote:Reposted from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1788996
wm wrote:
Marcus Wendel wrote:Are there for example any memorial to the Poles of the 74th Infantry Regiment that were killed by soldiers from Infanterie-Regiment 15 in 1939?
There is, but a recent work by Janusz Ryt says it has never happened, and the number of executed Polish soldiers there was a dozen or so - in unrelated to the supposed war crime incidents.
And he speculates that the single proof of that crime was prepared by the communist secret services in order to smear the yet-to-be created Bundeswehr.
Just a friendly reminder that Janusz Ryt is an architect and the book in question was self-published.

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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by Marcus » 01 May 2013 09:16

Thanks Lokanski. Has there been any reactions to his work?

/Marcus

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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by wm » 01 May 2013 12:04

He is a businessman with passion for history and with wads of cash to burn for research. His Battle of Pszczyna 1939 seems to be regarded as professional, interesting and even fascinating by many and the source for that important battle in Wikipedia and elsewhere. That massacre was part of that battle.

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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by wm » 01 May 2013 12:43

An hour after the battle, regimental commander Oberstleutnant Walter Wessel, strutted down a road where fourteen of his men had died. A monocle fixed firmly in his eye, he surveyed the dead, including a popular Hauptmann, Lewinski. Wessel was furious. ‘Pure cheek to want to stop us,’ he raged, declaring the 300 captured Poles were not soldiers but partisans – even though each man wore a uniform. Wessel ordered the prisoners to remove their jackets, then they were marched off down the road single-file. ‘Five minutes later I hear a dozen German machine-pistols bark,’ one Landser wrote in his diary. ‘I hurry in that direction and see the 300 Polish prisoners lying in the ditch, shot.’
In this text a single sentence is omitted, claiming that the Polish soldiers had their suspenders cut off. This is one of the inconsistencies spotted by Ryt - Polish soldiers didn't wear suspenders at that time...
Another the "schweredeutsche Maschinnenpistolen" expression, corrected by pencil later.

And in his book he shows that:
- known German recollections of that battle don't mention the massacre,
- and the Polish soldiers' taken prisoners there,
- local people's who were near for some reason or another didn't see it,
- the local police investigation in 1954 didn't find any proof of the massacre.

Below the original document sent anonymously to the Polish consulate in Munich:
Unsere.jpg
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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by Peter K » 08 Jul 2013 23:15

Mentioned Janusz Ryt (nickname Tomasz N), ciekawy, Atrix, me and several other users participated in discussion about this massacre on Forum Historia (discussion currently 143 pages long). I didn't participate in it actively until the very end, only up to some point. Later mostly Atrix continued this discussion, as he lives in the area of Lipsko-Ciepielów and regional history of that area is a very impoortant part of his historical interests. Also Janusz Ryt was very active in that discussion, because he is interested in regional history of Upper Silesia, and as we know Polish soldiers who fought near Ciepielów, were soldiers of 74th Upper Silesian Infantry Regiment as well as some soldiers from other units of 7th Inf.Div., which during the first days of war fought in the northernmost part of Silesian Voivodeship, a gap between Army "Cracow" and Army "Lodz" (it defended the 40 km long part of frontline between Krzepice / Kschepitz and Lubliniec / Lublinitz, with main position near Częstochowa / Tschenstochau).

Link to discussion on Forum Historia:

http://forum.historia.org.pl/topic/4102 ... u-w-1939r/

Janusz Ryt was indeed skeptical about the scale of the massacre. Apart from his book "Pszczyna 1939", already mentioned here, he published also a short booklet "Mord pod Ciepielowem w relacjach i dokumentach" in 2009 (I have a copy of this booklet). But this booklet is not really giving final answers to the question of what happened near Lipsko and Ciepielow in 1939. It was intended as a contribution to our discussion about those events on Forum Historia. And that's why Janusz sent one copy of this booklet to everyone who participated in that discussion.

Atrix - another most active participant of that discussion - published his own article about those events. It can be found in the link below, but it is in Polish, so would require a translation to be posted here:

http://lipsko.pl.tl/Mord-pod-Ciepielowem.htm

On one history forum, Atrix also listed a short summary of his conclusions after a few years of research:

1 - number of buried Polish soldiers in the forest near Ciepielow - 242
2 - number of buried German soldiers - 24
3 - in combats against Polish collective battalion participated two battalions of German 15 IR(mot.), and not just one - III. - battalion of this regiment, as is often wrongly stated.
4 - in the first clash near a forest barrier, one line squadron from Polish Warsaw Armoured-Motorized Brigade, commanded by Rtm. L. Podrez, took place.
5 - entire forest in which Polish battalion was defending, was heavily shelled by German Art.Rgt.29.
6 - ca. 150 Poles surrendered after combats; on 8 September in the evening they marched to the town of Lipsko.
7 - there is no doubt that there occured instances of Germans finishing off wounded Polish soldiers after that battle
8 - in the vincinity of village Cukrówka near Lipsko, German soldiers opened fired towards a column of Polish POWs. Fire was opened from a machine gun placed on a truck (Lkw), and not by an armoured car, as is often wrongly stated.
9 - as the result of this fire opened on a column of POWs near Cukrówka, 14 Polish soldiers were killed
10 - among those killed near Cukrówka were Major J. Cesarz (74 pp) and Lieutenant W. Samborski (25 pp)
11 - there were 3 photos attached to anonymous document sent to the Polish consulate in Munich, not 5 photos

And let's add to this list, two more conclusions, expressed by him in the article linked above:

12 - apart from war crimes against POWs (however, not on such a large scale as is commonly stated) and finishing off wounded soldiers (i.e. killing them on the spot, instead of capturing them), there was also another war crime in this area - commited by III. battalion of Inf.Rgt.79(mot.) - this time a war crime against local civilian population. Victims of this war crime included some ethnic Poles, as well as 70 - 80 ethnic Jews from Lipsko.

13 - there was also one more war crime in village Cukrówka on 9 September - Germans executed a young Polish couple (husband and wife) and their little child - it is confirmed by accounts of numerous eye-witnesses.

Moreover, author of this article (I am not 100% certain that this is Atrix, but for 99% the answer is yes):

http://lipsko.pl.tl/Mord-pod-Ciepielowem.htm

Suggests, that:

14 - the German-language document which was sent to Polish consulate in Munich (known as the "Munich Letter") - could be a falsificate, written deliberately, on purpose - and this purpose, was to avoid responsibility of people who really were responsible for war crimes in the area Lipsko - Ciepielow, who instead shifted all of the responsibility onto one person - Oberst Walter Wessel, who was KIA in combats in Italy in 1943, and thus could not stand trial, unlike those who survived the war - and probably were authors of the "Munich Letter".
Lokanski wrote:
Marcus Wendel wrote:Reposted from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1788996
wm wrote:
Marcus Wendel wrote:Are there for example any memorial to the Poles of the 74th Infantry Regiment that were killed by soldiers from Infanterie-Regiment 15 in 1939?
There is, but a recent work by Janusz Ryt says it has never happened, and the number of executed Polish soldiers there was a dozen or so - in unrelated to the supposed war crime incidents.
And he speculates that the single proof of that crime was prepared by the communist secret services in order to smear the yet-to-be created Bundeswehr.
Just a friendly reminder that Janusz Ryt is an architect and the book in question was self-published.
WM - the link to this "recent work" of Janusz Ryt which you provided, is precisely the booklet I was talking about in my post above (i have a paperback version of this booklet, since Janusz sent it to everyone who participated in our discussion on Forum Historia).

However, this booklet is not so "recent", because it was written in 2009 - when our discussion about Ciepielow war crime on Forum Historia was about 60 - 70 pages long, and at present time it is 143 pages long.

As I wrote - this booklet - although Janusz Ryt formulates there his theories (and as I already wrote, he has been skeptical about the number of victims of this crime) - is by no means giving final answers to the question of "what happened near Ciepielow in 1939?" - and this is admitted by the author (Janusz Ryt) himself.

Anyway - it is certain, that the number of victims of Ciepielow crime among POWs was much lower than often given 300 (actually - the total amount of soldiers dead from all causes - KIA, finished off wounded, shot on the spot and murdered while in captivity, was only 242). However, while researching this war crime against POWs, some new war crimes - this time against civilians, including Jews from Lipsko - were re-discovered. The war crime against POWs is also not denied completely - even by the most skeptical of us all Janusz Ryt - only the number of victims must be reestablished, and this reestablishment is inevitably going to reduce it - because 300 was not even the number of total deaths from all causes, including artillery shelling and combats, which lasted for many hours.
wm wrote:That massacre was part of that battle [battle of Pszczyna].
No, no wm! - here you are confusing the Ciepielow massacre with the Ćwiklice massacre. ;) The Ćwiklice massacre was part of the battle of Pszczyna - and it was not a war crime, but a very uneven fight between Polish infantry with insuffienct amount of anti-tank weapons surprised by German tanks in open ground near Ćwiklice.
This is one of the inconsistencies spotted by Ryt - Polish soldiers didn't wear suspenders at that time...
But they did wear them! At least some types of uniforms had them (Polish infantry used a few types of uniforms). We can see suspenders on original 1939 photos showing Polish soldiers - including those from Ciepielow (photos are original for sure, there are only doubts whether the "Munich Letter" is original - and only 3 of 5 known photos were attached to this letter, the other 2 come from different sources and also show the area of Ciepielow - Lipsko, with Polish prisoners of war wearing suspenders).

As I wrote - Janusz Ryt published this booklet in 2009, when discussion had 60 pages, later it expanded to 140.
And in his book he shows that:
1) - known German recollections of that battle don't mention the massacre,
2) - and the Polish soldiers' taken prisoners there,
3) - local people's who were near for some reason or another didn't see it,
1) - correct, but armies as a rule reluctantly talk about war crimes such as shooting surrendering or wounded enemies on the spot or killing POWs
1) - and German recollections confirm that many Polish soldiers died - they only give a different reason for this (they claim that all Poles were combat deaths)
1) - German recollections also don't mention that they burnt alive 60 Jews in a synagogue in Lipsko and other war crimes against civilians in the area (yet the synagogue was destroyed)
2) - this is wrong, German recollections mention Polish soldiers taken prisoners there
3) - this is wrong, but you need to check the thread on Forum Historia to see this
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Massacre in Ciepielów

Post by Peter K » 08 Jul 2013 23:50

Marcus Wendel wrote: Has there been any reactions to his work?
He published his work in very low volume, mostly as a contribution to discussion on Forum Historia.

So - apart from reactions on that forum - rather not.

And also on this forum (AHF) there were reactions - in my posts on page 2 of this thread, for example:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1362039

But now his work is available online in Silesian Virtual Library, so maybe there will be more reactions:

http://www.sbc.org.pl/dlibra/doccontent ... NIER%20DLF

On pages 48 - 55 are scans of pages from the diary of divisional doctor of 29 ID(mot). We had some problems to read this rather ugly hand-writing in German language - for native German speakers it should be easier.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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