The Mascot

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Hundi
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Re: The Mascot

Post by Hundi » 06 Dec 2009 02:20

michael mills wrote:Hundi,

If you open your eyes, you will see that I posted a link to the source in my message of 6 June.

Thanks michael, well I use glasses, mercy for me!!!

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JELEŃ
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Re: The Mascot

Post by JELEŃ » 22 Dec 2010 15:17

Rob - wssob2 wrote:
Here is a critical analysis of Mark Kurzem's book by a historian of the Museum of the Occupation of Latvia:
It may be a critical analysis, but it is definitely written with a bias. The author is Latvian or of Latvian origin. The book has struck a rather controversial chord (undoubtedly) with the Latvian people. It does definitely show a certain complicity of willingness to work with the Third Reich.

I think the strongest case for why Illya Galberin/Alex Kurzem's story is not a fabrication, other than the physical evidence which he has and has been able to gather is the fact that he had kept it hidden for decades to himself.

Unlike a fraudulent example in Binjamin Wilkomirski, or Misha Defoensca, who both claimed to have been eyewitnesses to to surviving the Holocaust.

michael mills
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Re: The Mascot

Post by michael mills » 23 Dec 2010 03:51

I think the strongest case for why Illya Galberin/Alex Kurzem's story is not a fabrication, other than the physical evidence which he has and has been able to gather is the fact that he had kept it hidden for decades to himself.
But he did not keep it to himself.

He in fact published his story in the Latvian media in Australia in the 1950s, when he was a young man. In that account he included his life as a mascot for a Latvian police unit working in alliance with the German occupiers.

If his attachment to the police unit is the element that Jelen finds most incriminating, and the one that he thinks Kurzem would be most anxious to keep hidden, then he is mistaken; Kurzem then had no qualms about revealing it. Presumably, in the 1950s Latvian refugees in Australia did not consider that their collaboration with Germany against the Soviet Union, now the enemy of Australia, was anything to be ashamed of.

The major difference from his later, more sensational account, is that in the first account Kurzem made no claim to being a Jew. He stated that he he had become separated from his parent in the forest, and was found by the Latvian police unit; he could not remember anything definite about his home town or parents, due to his very young age.

It is obvious that his story about being actually a Jew is a fabrication, added to his original story for the purpose of seensationalism and possibly making some money from a credulous public.

In short it is a documented fact that he was found in the forest by a Latvian police unit in 1942, was made their mascot, and later was adopted into the family of one of the policemen, migrating to Australia with them after the war.

His life before being found in the forest in 1942 remains unknown, but the claim that he was a Jewish child who escaped a massacre in 1941 and spent the winter hiding in the forest (as a little boy of 4-5) is the least likely of all possible alternatives, and indeed beggars belief.

It is also quite likely that his claims of having witnessed massacres and deportations of Jews are also fabrications, added to his story to increase the dramatic effect of a Jewish child aware of his origin and the need to conceal it, being faced woth the sight of his own people being killed.

In any case, the story has entirely disappeared from the radar here in Australia, no doubt because of a tacit recognition of ots probable falsehood.

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JELEŃ
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Re: The Mascot

Post by JELEŃ » 23 Dec 2010 15:47

I'm not going to bother to discuss this with you, since it's a matter of two rams budding heads.

From what I've read in your posts, you are a thinly veiled revisionist and sympathizer of the Axis forces.

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Re: The Mascot

Post by David Thompson » 23 Dec 2010 15:56

JELEŃ -- You are free to participate in the discussion or not, as you choose, but please avoid personal comments about other posters.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

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JELEŃ
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Re: The Mascot

Post by JELEŃ » 23 Dec 2010 15:59

How can you discuss a historical event, when the other person completely refuses and denies the truth of the event and offers a completely different chronology of events.

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Re: The Mascot

Post by David Thompson » 23 Dec 2010 16:03

The policy and general purpose of the forum is to provide for an exchange of views and facts on the topic, and to allow discussion of the different points of view. The viewpoints expressed by contributors to this forum are so divergent that general agreement on almost any aspect of the holocaust is unlikely and disagreement will be the rule.

Under these circumstances, in my opinion the best policy is to provide as many facts on the issue as possible, allow the contributors to state their point of view in a civil manner, and let the readers make up their own minds.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

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JELEŃ
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Re: The Mascot

Post by JELEŃ » 23 Dec 2010 16:09

If M. Mills wants to believe the version of history that he offers, he is free to do so. Just as D. Irving is free to believe the version of events that has transpired in his mind.

However, the willingness to lend a voice to individuals who create facts or use less than credible sources; allows for a mockery of sorts to be created.

In my opinion, you can hardly have a free-flowing discussion when one side offers up a viewpoint which is considered to be 'revisionist' by the majority of scholars, educators, historians and 'normal' individuals alike.

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Re: The Mascot

Post by David Thompson » 23 Dec 2010 16:35

JELEŃ -- You wrote:
In my opinion, you can hardly have a free-flowing discussion when one side offers up a viewpoint which is considered to be 'revisionist' by the majority of scholars, educators, historians and 'normal' individuals alike.
You can't have a free-flowing discussion which only represents one point of view, either. That approach abandons the field to 'revisionists,' without refuting or correcting their factual and logical errors which otherwise may be or become widespread.

We try to offer a balance here. Our readers are intelligent people, and can sort out the wheat from the chaff, hence my quote from the forum and section rules at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1540467. These rules of discussion permit enough light, by way of sourced facts, to illuminate the difference between fact and fantasy, while avoiding unproductive flame exchanges.

Now let's get back on topic.

shamirnewell
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Re: The Mascot

Post by shamirnewell » 30 Sep 2022 10:03

This an old topic but DNA analysis has proven that he is Jewish, from the area he claims, and even located distant family living in Canada.

https://www.forensicmag.com/570262-Gene ... sh-Mascot/

michael mills
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Re: The Mascot

Post by michael mills » 01 Oct 2022 13:36

There is a Wikipedia article about Alex Kurzem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Kurzem

That article details some of the doubts that have been voiced about his claim of having been born into a Jewish family.

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Re: The Mascot

Post by shamirnewell » 01 Oct 2022 15:24

Yes. At least now the doubts as to his Jewish origins have been put to rest.

michael mills
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Re: The Mascot

Post by michael mills » 02 Oct 2022 12:14

I personally would like to see more details about the DNA analysis. All DNA analysis can do is show the degree of relationship between person A and person person B, it cannot show a person's ethnic origin since there is no DNA that is specific to any particular ethnic group, ie it cannot show whether or nor a particular person is Jewish or not.

shamirnewell
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Re: The Mascot

Post by shamirnewell » 02 Oct 2022 12:37

Well Colleen Fitzpatrick was one of his primary doubters is the person who is now saying that he is of Jewish origin, has relatives in Canada whose family was from Koidanov, and are Jewish. You are free to research DNA and Colleen Fitzpatrick. Given the relatively new evidence(2020) though we are forced to separate the wheat from chaff and say that it certainly appears his Jewish origin is proven.

https://www.forensicmag.com/570262-Gene ... sh-Mascot/

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victo ... 68db6776e0

contact Colleen Fitzpatrick:
https://identifinders.com/about/

gebhk
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Re: The Mascot

Post by gebhk » 02 Oct 2022 13:04

Hi Michael

You are of course right that you can't prove someone's ethnicity through DNA, albeit you can estimate how likely it is for someone to come from a certain part of the world or ethnic group or race (specially, given that race is a lot more than just genes) . However, you can determine the relationship with anhother person or persons and, if I read the article supplied by Shamirnewell correctly, the determination here is that Kurzem is (thought to be - as I understand it the results weren't in yet when the article was written?) closely related to individuals who are accepted as being, indeed, Jewish and from Koidanov.

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