I agree, and the same of course applies to all who died during the war, regardless of wether they were soldiers or civilians.cybercat wrote:I should imagine that it mattered to them and to the members of their families that survived!billy beard wrote:why does it matter exactly how many jews were murdered?
That’s why they seem to be scared of opposition.Charles Bunch wrote:It may pass for powerful argument at the air-photo board, but in the real world, normal people will call you on it.
A sorry bunch they are.Guadalupe Salcedo <[email protected]> wrote:
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Here's an article that KP may enjoy reading - if he can understand it:Kampfgruppe Peiper wrote:IT MATTERS BECAUSE THE JEWS ARE ALL WE HEAR ABOUT WITH THE HOLLOCAUST. ARMENIANS WERE MASSACRED. BRAVE AND NOBLE GERMANS WERE MASSACRED FOR YEARS AFTER THE WAR BY THE BOLSHEVICKS. BUT ALL WE HERE ABOUT IS THE JEW.
I'm at a loss to see how Dr. Goebbels (as per his musings) was in a position to dictate to Hitler or even Himmler. Nevertheless, Goebbels wanted to make his Gau Jew-Free and was in a position to deport them, given the need for wartime forced-labor in the East. Now, nobody pretends that such a grave injustice is benign, but a blueprint for the mass-murder of them all is still lacking, AFAIC.Roberto wrote:I suppose that is why Roberto keeps reminding Smith of what exactly a Nazi bigwig like Goebbels considered the relationship between the killing of the Jews and the war to be: war, according to Goebbels, provided the opportunity to do what could not have been done in peacetime.Scott Smith wrote:I beg to differ. It had everything to do with the war and even Roberto thinks so.Chuckoo wrote:The policy to murder the Jews of Europe was a policy undertaken during war, but it had nothing to do with wartime policy.
The above translation of Goebbels' diary entry of 27 March 1942 can is transcribed underBeginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.
The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention. A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them. The prophesy which the Fuehrer made about them for having brought on a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner. One must not be sentimental in these matters. If we did not fight the Jews, they would destroy us. It's a life-and-death struggle between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Here, too, the Fuehrer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable. Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this.[my emphasis]
The ghettoes that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government now will be refilled with Jews thrown out of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time. There is nothing funny in it for the Jews, and the fact that Jewry's representatives in England and America are today organizing and sponsoring the war against Germany must be paid for dearly by its representatives in Europe - and that's only right.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goe ... ts-02.html
How so? Or better yet, nevermind. I don't really care. Your accusations are old-hat by now.How about making your lies a little less transparent, Mr. Smith?
What's that supposed to mean ?Scott Smith wrote:I'm at a loss to see how Dr. Goebbels (as per his musings) was in a position to dictate to Hitler or even Himmler.Roberto wrote:I suppose that is why Roberto keeps reminding Smith of what exactly a Nazi bigwig like Goebbels considered the relationship between the killing of the Jews and the war to be: war, according to Goebbels, provided the opportunity to do what could not have been done in peacetime.Scott Smith wrote:I beg to differ. It had everything to do with the war and even Roberto thinks so.Chuckoo wrote:The policy to murder the Jews of Europe was a policy undertaken during war, but it had nothing to do with wartime policy.
The above translation of Goebbels' diary entry of 27 March 1942 can is transcribed underBeginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.
The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention. A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them. The prophesy which the Fuehrer made about them for having brought on a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner. One must not be sentimental in these matters. If we did not fight the Jews, they would destroy us. It's a life-and-death struggle between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Here, too, the Fuehrer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable. Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this.[my emphasis]
The ghettoes that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government now will be refilled with Jews thrown out of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time. There is nothing funny in it for the Jews, and the fact that Jewry's representatives in England and America are today organizing and sponsoring the war against Germany must be paid for dearly by its representatives in Europe - and that's only right.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goe ... ts-02.html
Was he talking about the Jews of his Gau?Scott Smith wrote:Nevertheless, Goebbels wanted to make his Gau Jew-Free and was in a position to deport them, given the need for wartime forced-labor in the East.
Goebbels spoke of liquidation, of a "barbaric" procedure even he, who had no problem in writing about mass executions, didn't want to describe "more definitely", of a judgement being visited upon the Jews, etc.Scott Smith wrote:Now, nobody pretends that such a grave injustice is benign,
In Smith's dreamworld, there was never such a "blueprint", whatever Smith means by that.Scott Smith wrote:but a blueprint for the mass-murder of them all is still lacking, AFAIC.
Necessarily so, as Smith keeps repeating his crap no matter how often it is slapped around his ears.Scott Smith wrote:How so? Or better yet, nevermind. I don't really care. Your accusations are old-hat by now.How about making your lies a little less transparent, Mr. Smith?
In the above passage, Charles Bunch assumes a connection between a number of developments that is increasingly questioned by historians.At the time of the conference Chelmno had been in operation for a number of weeks, the gas chambers of Belzec were under construction and would be in operation in less than two months, and experiments with gassing with Zyklon B had occurred at Auschwitz to which the deportations of Jews was about to begin, and at which in the Spring the first of two Birkenau farmhouses was converted into a gas chamber.
Other thanmichael mills wrote:All in all, there is no obvious connection between Heydrich's deportation plan and the various local initiatives listed by Charles Bunch. There is no reason for not accepting that the plan outlined by Heydrich at Wannsee was limited to the deportation of the Jews under German control into the occupied Soviet Union, and the use of the employables for slave labour on strategic road-building programs such as Durchgangsstrasse IV.
http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanngerm.html[...]Unter entsprechender Leitung sollen im Zuge der Endlösung die Juden in geeigneter Weise im Osten zum Arbeitseinsatz kommen. In großen Arbeitskolonnen, unter Trennung der Geschlechter, werden die arbeitsfähigen Juden straßenbauend in diese Gebiete geführt, wobei zweifellos ein Großteil durch natürliche Verminderung ausfallen wird.
Der allfällig endlich verbleibende Restbestand wird, da es sich bei diesem zweifellos um den widerstandsfähigsten Teil handelt, entsprechend behandelt werden müssen, da dieser, eine natürliche Auslese darstellend, bei Freilassung als Keimzelle eines neuen jüdischen Aufbaues anzusprechen ist. (Siehe die Erfahrung der Geschichte.)[...]
Source of quote:[...]Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes[my emphasis].
The possible final remnant[my emphasis] will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival[my emphasis] (see the experience of history.)[...]
Source of quote:[...]A: I do not remember it in detail, Your Honour. I do not remember the circumstances of this conversation. But I do know that these gentlemen were standing together, or sitting together, and were discussing the subject quite bluntly, quite differently from the language which I had to use later in the record. During the conversation they minced no words about it at all. I might say furthermore, Your Honour, that I would not have remembered this unless I had later remembered that I told myself- Look here, I told myself, even this guy Stuckart, who was known as one of these uncles who was a great stickler for legalities, he too uses language which is not at all in accordance with paragraphs of the law.[my emphasis] This incident remained engraved in my memory and recalled the entire subject to my mind.
Q. What did he say about this subject?
A. In detail I do not-
Q. Not details in general, what did he say about this theme?
A. I cannot remember it in detail Your Honour, but they spoke about methods for killing, about liquidation, about extermination.[my emphasis] I was busy with my records. I had to make the preparations for taking down the minutes. I could not perk up my ears and listen to everything that was said. But it filtered through the small room and I caught fragments of this conversation. It was a small room so from time to time I heard a word or two.[...]
First of all my point had nothing to do with a connection between these developments other than to point out that they were all ongoing at the time Heydrich held the Wannsee Conference and stated that: "These actions are, however, only to be considered provisional, but practical experience is already being collected which is of the greatest importance in relation to the future final solution of the Jewish question."michael mills wrote:Charles Bunch wrote:
In the above passage, Charles Bunch assumes a connection between a number of developments that is increasingly questioned by historians.At the time of the conference Chelmno had been in operation for a number of weeks, the gas chambers of Belzec were under construction and would be in operation in less than two months, and experiments with gassing with Zyklon B had occurred at Auschwitz to which the deportations of Jews was about to begin, and at which in the Spring the first of two Birkenau farmhouses was converted into a gas chamber.
Which, of course, touches not at all on my point.It appears that the establishment of a killing centre at Chelmno was a local action initiated by the Reichstatthalter of Reichsgau Wartheland, with the assent of Himmler and Heydrich, for the purpose of reducing the number of Jews in the Wartheland by 100,000 or about one-third. The impetus for that initiative seems to have derived from the overcrowding in the Lodz Ghetto due to the arrival of thousands of Jews deported from Germany, and also the decision to turn the ghetto into an industrial enterprise where all the employable Jews of Wartheland would be concentrated, with the unemployables being exterminated.
In any case, there appears to be no formal connection between Greiser's Chelmno initiative and the Europe-wide deportation plan revealed by Heydrich at Wannsee.
SK Lange was ordered to the Warthegau by Himmler.Only the deportation of German Jews to Lodz was part of that plan, and those deportees were not sent to Chelmno until May of 1942. Chelmno was run by a Sonderkommando from the Security Police HQ in Posen which had previously been involved in a local "euthanasia" action, and was not controlled by the RSHA.
And Longerich is decidedly in the minority on this point.The former transit camp at Belzec had been re-commissioned starting from October 1941, but it is not clear what its original purpose was. The long delay between the start of work and the commencement of deportations from Lublin in March 1942 (almost six months) suggests a period during which a decision was being awaited. The German historian Peter Longerich believes that the final German Government approval for the killing of the unemployable majority of the Jews of the GG did not come until March, just before the commencement of deportations.
Globocnik was not operating on his own authority, but on Himmler's, who was the ultimate authority.The destination of Heydrich's deportation program was the occupied Soviet Union, not the GG. Furthermore, Globocnik appears to have been operating on his own authority, reporting directly to Himmler, and not to have been subordinate to Heydrich.
As for the introduction of the gassing technology at Auschwitz, that was connected with the killing of Soviet POWs selected as "dangerous" and sent to concentration camps, including Auschwitz, for execution.
At the time of the introduction of gassing, probably in December 1941, there was as yet no decision to send Jews to Auschwitz.
Another absolutely irrelevant point to the discussion.As stated, Himmler's order, which initiated the sending of Jews to Auschwitz, which had not originally been designed as a camp for Jews,
And this has what to do with the issue under discussion?was connected with Heydrich's deportation plan, but represented a change to it.
It meant that of the Jews being deported and to be deported into the occupied Soviet Union, as prescribed in Heydrich's plan, 150,000 were to be diverted and sent to Auschwitz as a work-force. The historian of Auschwitz, Robert Jan Van Pelt, has shown that the decision to send Jews to Auschwitz as a work-force was a result of the fact that Soviet POWs, for whom Birkenau was built, were no longer available, having been reserved by Goering for armaments work.
Evidence exists showing that plans for sending Jews to Auschwitz did exist. But the point is irrelevant to the discussion, which is those "practical experiences" which were being gained at the time of the Conference which specifically applied to the "future final solution".Thus, when the deportation plan outlined by Heydrich at Wannsee was being developed, and at the time of the conference itself, there was no thought of sending Jews to Auschwitz. All the deportees were supposed to be sent to the occupied Soviet Union, not to a camp that strictly speaking was on the territory of the Reich (East Upper Silesia).
The date of conversion of the “Little White House” occurred in “the first few months” of 1942, or “in the early Spring”. The February/March timeframe is assumed by scholars.The date of conversion of the first farmhouse into a gas-chamber is not known for certain. It may have been in May 1942. It seems to be related to the arrival of the Schmelt Jews, and the localisation of Aktion 14f13 within Auschwitz.
There is no difference between the overall plan for Jewish extermination and Heydrich’s plan, which was deportation to death camps, or to ghettos for re-transport to death camps.All in all, there is no obvious connection between Heydrich's deportation plan and the various local initiatives listed by Charles Bunch.
There most certainly is!There is no reason for not accepting that the plan outlined by Heydrich at Wannsee was limited to the deportation of the Jews under German control into the occupied Soviet Union, and the use of the employables for slave labour on strategic road-building programs such as Durchgangsstrasse IV.
D. Advocate Esq. wrote:Scrupulous readers will notice that this definition INCLUDES soldiers, as they are part of a national, racial or religious group. This definition is ultimately pretty useless as it renders every war genocide.
CONVENTION ON THE PREVENTION AND PUNISHMENT
OF THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on
9 December 1948.
Art. 2. In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts
committed with intent[my emphasis] to destroy[my emphasis], in whole or in part, a national,
ethnical, racial or religious group[my emphasis], as such[my emphasis]:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to
bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Yeah, sure.D. Advocate Esq. wrote:Under this definition, Israel is commiting genocide by targetting the Palestinians, and the rest of us have done too over the years.
You’re not an advocate, are you ?CONVENTION ON THE PREVENTION AND PUNISHMENT
OF THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on
9 December 1948.
Art. 2. In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts
committed with intent[my emphasis] to destroy[my emphasis], in whole or in part, a national,
ethnical, racial or religious group[my emphasis], as such[my emphasis]:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to
bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
