65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

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henryk
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65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by henryk » 11 Apr 2008 19:51

http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/ne ... ation.html
Polish Radio-External Service-English
Setting the scene for Warsaw Ghetto commemoration
11.04.2008
Listen 3,95 MB
Several days after the Polish Prime Minister’s visit to Israel, President Shimon Peres will come to Poland for a four-day visit. He will take part in ceremonies to mark the 65th anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

Michal Kubicki sets the scene for next week’s events

The anniversary of the Ghetto Uprising is already now among the top stories in Polish media. It is also very much in evidence in the streets of major Polish cities, with hundreds of billboards designed specially for the occasion by the prominent photo artist Ryszard Horowitz. The Polish Parliament adopted a resolution in which deputies paid tribute to the victims and heroes of the Uprising.

It was on 19 April, 1943 that a few hundred of Jews started their revolt against the occupying Nazi German forces. As the anniversary of the outbreak of the Uprising this year falls on the Jewish Sabbath and on the eve of the Passover festival, the commemoration has been brought forward to Tuesday, 15 April.

A minister of state in the Polish Presidential Chancellery Ewa Junczyk-Ziomecka:

‘President Kaczynski wants the commemoration of the Ghetto Uprising anniversary to bring together Jews and Poles. Hence his invitation extended to President Shimon Peres. They share respect for the past and that’s why they will be together on that day.’

The two presidents will take part in the Jewish prayer for the dead at the Monument to the Heroes of the Ghetto. They are later scheduled to visit 98 year-old Irena Sendler who risked her life to save 2, 500 Jewish children during the Holocaust.

According to a Polish diplomat, Pawel Dobrowolski, Irena Sendler is among the greatest Poles of our time.

‘She is one of those unknown Polish heroes. She deserves to be perhaps as famous as Copernicus and Chopin. People watch Schindler’s List and they think that this was the ultimate sacrifice, her sacrifice and the things she did go further and much beyond that.'

The commemoration will bring together Jews from around the world. Renata Skotnicka Zajdman lives in Canada.

‘I survived the Warsaw Ghetto thanks to Żegota [the organization which offered assistance to Jews] and Irena Sendler’s friends. She worked in a climate of hate, indifference and hostility. She was working when honesty was a crime and decency was punished’.

A wide range of cultural events is also planned to the mark the anniversary. They include a concert by the Israeli Philharmonic conducted by Zubin Mehta.

During his visit to Warsaw last year, he recalled his previous concerts in Poland.

‘I came here for the first time in 1976 with the Los Angeles Philharmonic. Our opening piece at that concert was De natura sonoris by Penderecki, a piece that was dedicated to me. That was a tour to celebrate the 200 years of the United States. I will never forget the first time at the Warsaw Opera House in 1987 with the Israeli Philharmonic. We came here not knowing how we would be welcomed and I can tell you the enthusiasm of your public filled our hearts.’

On Tuesday, Zubin Mehta will return to the same venue – the National Opera House.

On the anniversary of the outbreak of the Ghetto Uprising itself, Saturday 19 April, the Jewish community has invited Varsovians to attend the Passover festival, with traditional Jewish food and music.

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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by David Thompson » 16 Apr 2008 05:05

A series of posts on the claim of Polish hypocrisy on this subject were moved to a thread of their own: "Did the Polish people profit from the extermination of Jews?" at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=138078 , to prevent this thread from being "hijacked."

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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by Ogorek » 16 Apr 2008 16:56

http://www.gazetawyborcza.pl/1,86871,5125994.html


The Ghetto Fought for Honour
Grzegorz Lisicki
2008-04-16, ostatnia aktualizacja 2008-04-16 16:00

Zobacz powiększenie
Fot. KACPER PEMPEL REUTERS
'How terrible that sense of helplessness was. How terrible was the sense of fate that the last, desperate Jewish fighters felt', Israeli President Shimon Peres said in front of the Ghetto Fighters Monument in Warsaw to a crowd of several thousand invited guests and several hundred Varsovians.
ZOBACZ TAKŻE

* Getto walczyło o honor (16-04-08, 01:00)

Around the monument in Warsaw's Muranów neighbourhood, the crowd had been getting thicker by the minute since early morning. On the fenced square and the commons with a blue tent, where the construction of the Museum of the History of Polish Jews is soon to begin, the invited guests were gathering: Jewish and Polish veterans, Polish and Israeli youth.

Extraordinary security measures had been put in place, which meant that ordinary Varsovians could not participate in the event. They were separated from the main proceedings by a double fence line raised quite far from the monument. The site was surrounded by a police cordon and guarded by a SWAT team. 'They've overdone it. It looks like a siege or something', a gentleman in a light-coloured trench coat complained, trying to see anything of the celebrations beginning in the distance.

Minutes after 12.00 a bugle announced the arrival of Israeli President Shimon Peres and his Polish counterpart, Lech Kaczyński. They were greeted by waving white-and-blue Israeli flags and white flags with a red Star of David held by the Jewish youth.

Lech Kaczyński recounted in his speech the history of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. 'It was hell. Their situation was hopeless. And yet they fought - not for victory, but for honour. In the name of all Poles, I make an obeisance to them', said the Polish President.

Shimon Peres started his speech by reading out an excerpt from the memoirs of a fighter surrounded in a bunker by the Nazis. 'How terrible that sense of helplessness was. How terrible was the sense of fate that the last, desperate Jewish fighters felt', President Peres read. And he went on, from himself, 'We want revenge, but a different kind of revenge. Our revenge is our desire of peace, it is the emergence of the Jewish state, which leads in the world'.

Ms Stanisława Frycz-Ścibor was invited as one of the Righteous Among the Nations. 'I'm here every year. When I was five, my family was expelled after the Warsaw Uprising to Milanówek. There we gave shelter in the basement to three Jewish children', she said. 'I live nearby and whenever I see a tour, I approach them to tell my story. So that it never happens again'.

Those present listened to the kaddish, the prayer for the dead. It was told by Michael Schudrich, the Chief Rabbi of Poland. The El Malle Rachamim psalm was sung by the great cantor Joseph Malovany of New York.

After the ceremony, the two heads of state went to visit Irena Sendlerowa, who saved thousands of Jewish children during the war.

After the Presidents left, actor Daniel Olbrychski started reading out the names of the 15,000 fighters who died in the Ghetto Uprising. 'A deeply moving experience, comparable to that I felt in 1980 when reading out the names of fallen shipyard workers during the unveiling of their monument in Gdańsk', Mr Olbrychski told Gazeta. At 15.00, the names started to be read out also in two of Warsaw's busiest spots - on Chmielna street, and at the plaza in front of the Centrum underground station. Among those reading out the names was Anna Lec. 'I came here specially for the celebrations from Denmark. I emigrated there in 1968', she told Gazeta.

Źródło: Gazeta Wyborcza

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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by michael mills » 17 Apr 2008 01:08

What does all this political grandstanding add to our knowledge of the specific historical event and its interpretation?

I had thought this forum was supposed to be a repository of knowledge about the events of 1933-45, rather than a place for posting news items about present national leaders staging events for political purposes that they deem important for one reason or another.

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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by Steen Ammentorp » 17 Apr 2008 12:21

michael mills wrote:What does all this political grandstanding add to our knowledge of the specific historical event and its interpretation?

I had thought this forum was supposed to be a repository of knowledge about the events of 1933-45, rather than a place for posting news items about present national leaders staging events for political purposes that they deem important for one reason or another.


Rather than concerning yourself with threads that you for one reason or another deem unimportant then perhaps you should add to the repository of knowledge by answering some of the many questions put forward to you in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=138078
Kind Regards
Steen Ammentorp
The Generals of World War Two

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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by michael mills » 18 Apr 2008 05:04

I have answered those questions, General Ammentorp. If other Forum members are not satisfied with my answers, or the references I gave, that is their problem.

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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by Andreas » 18 Apr 2008 09:49

You have not answered all the questions, and the answers you gave do not back up your claims. I suggest you re-read the questions before making further false statements here.

Thank you.

Andreas

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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by Liluh » 20 Apr 2008 19:36

I would like to use the opportunity and bring up one topic strictly connected to Ghetto Uprising, about which, casual reader may be not aware due to long years of covering the facts and true history by communistic government.

That is, the part of Jewish Military Union in Ghetto Uprising

Żydowski Związek Wojskowy (ŻZW, Polish for Jewish Military Union) was an underground resistance organization operating during World War II in the area of the Warsaw Ghetto and fighting during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. It was formed primarily of former officers of the Polish Army in late 1939, soon after the start of the German occupation of Poland.

Due to its close ties with the all-national Armia Krajowa (AK), after the war the Communist authorities of Poland suppressed the publication of books and articles on ŻZW, whose role in the uprising in the ghetto was undervalued,[1] as opposed to a leftist Jewish organization Żydowska Organizacja Bojowa (Jewish Fighting Organization), whose role in the struggle is better covered in modern monographs and often overstated.[2]


The ŻZW was formed some time in November of 1939, immediately after the German and Soviet conquest of Poland. Among its founding members was Dawid Mordechaj Apfelbaum[3], a pre-war Lieutenant of the Polish Army,[4] who proposed his former superior, Captain Henryk Iwański, to form a Jewish en cadre resistance group in collaboration with other Polish resistance organizations being formed at that time[2]. At the end of December such an organization was indeed formed and received the name of Żydowski Związek Walki. On January 30, 1940, its existence was approved by General Władysław Sikorski, the Polish commander in chief and the prime minister of the Polish Government in Exile[2].

Initially consisting of only 39 men, each armed with a Vis pistol, with time it had grown to become one of the most numerous and most notable Jewish resistance organizations in Poland. Between 1940 and 1942 additional cells were formed in most major towns of Poland, including the most notable groups in Lublin, Lwów and Stanisławów. Although initially formed entirely by professional soldiers, with time it also included members of pre-war right wing Jewish-Polish parties such as Betar (among them Perec Laskier, Lowa Swerin, Paweł Frenkel, Merediks, Langleben and Rosenfeld), Hatzohar (Joel Białobrow, Dawid Wdowiński) and the revisionist faction of the Polish Zionist Party (Leib "Leon" Rodal and Meir Klingbeil).[1]

The ŻZW was formed in close ties with Iwański's organization and initially focused primarily on acquisition of arms and preparation of a large action in which all of its members could escape to Hungary, from where they wanted to flee to Great Britain where the Polish Army was being re-created[2]. With time however it was decided that the members stay in occupied Poland to help organize the struggle against the occupants. In the later period the ŻZW focused on acquisition of arms for the future struggle as well as on helping the Jews to escape the ghettos, created in almost every town in German-held Poland. Thanks to the close ties with the Związek Walki Zbrojnej and then the AK (mainly through Iwański's Security Corps, the Polish underground police force), the ŻZW received a large number of guns and armaments, as well as training of their members by professional officers. Those resistance organizations also provided help with weapons and ammunition acquisition, as well as with organizing the escapes.[2][4]

Although the ŻZW was active in a number of towns in Poland, it's major headquarters remained in Warsaw. When most of the Jewish inhabitants were forced into the Warsaw Ghetto, the ŻZW remained in contact with the outside world through Iwański and a number of other officers on the Aryan side. By the summer of 1942, the Union had 320 well-armed[5] members in Warsaw alone. During the first large deportation from the Warsaw Ghetto, the ŻZW received the news of the German plans and managed to hide most of its members in bunkers, which resulted in only up to 20 of them being arrested by the Germans[2]. Although Dawid Mordechaj Apfelbaum could not convince Adam Czerniaków to start an armed uprising against the Germans during the deportation, the organization managed to preserve most of its members - and assets. It also started to train more members and by January of 1943 it already had roughly 500 men at arms in Warsaw alone. In addition, the technological department of the ŻZW, together with Capt. Cezary Ketling's group of the PLAN resistance organization managed to dig up two secret tunnels under the walls of the ghetto, providing contact with the outside and allowing smuggling of arms into the ghetto.[4]


During the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising ŻZW is said to have had about 400 well-armed fighters grouped in 11 units. ŻZW fought together with AK fighters in Muranowska street (4 units under Frenkel).


Marek Edelman in one of interviews mention ZOB counted some 220 badly armed men during the uprising - mine addition

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Military_Union

"Nearly all the literature written to this day - and many books as well as articles have been written about the uprising of the Warsaw Jews - is either a terrible falsification by those seeking their own fame while forgetting about others, or it is a mistake which results from a lack of knowledge and trusting relationship with surviving eyewitnesses, who fabricated their stories and shortened versions, making others look less significant and themselves more appealing - wrote Chaim Lazar-Litai in his book Masada in Warsaw. There was also official communist propaganda in Poland which gave a false picture of the uprising from the very beginning.
The Jewish Fighting Organization (ZOB - Zydowska Organizacja Bojowa) acted as the only counted-for participant in the uprising, despite the fact that her real involvement in the uprising was secondary. Her unveiling by communist historians, was decided by the official pro-Soviet orientation. As a consequence, the Polish leaders silenced the participation of the closely knit with the Polish Home Army, Jewish Military Organization (ZZW - Zydowski Zwiazek Wojskowy). With many more men, better armory, and trained by Polish instructors, they held a long lasting resistance against the Germans (from the 19th until the 27th of April 1943). For a comparison - badly armed and unprepared for combat, the warriors of ZOB were only able to defend themselves effectively for about eleven hours on the first day of the uprising. The fall of communism did not stop the conspiracy regarding ZZW. To this day there are plenty of those supporting the 'historical killing' of the truth about the participation of ZZW soldiers in the uprising. A demand for this enormous lie still exists; the only thing that has changed is its foundation. The Polish vision of "anti-Semitism", forced by pro-Jews and the Jewish movement cannot stand to measure up with facts from Polish-Jewish brothers in arms. In the midst of rampant lies and half-truths about the Polish Warsaw Uprising, it is worth to take a look at two Jewish publications The truth about the Warsaw uprising authored by Jewish publicist Aleksandra Swiszczewa, who appeared in "Shalom New York", as well as "Changing faces of memory: Who defended the Warsaw Ghetto?"


Source: Moshe Arsen, published in the "Jerusalem Post" on April 23rd 2003.


It would be about time to reveal the true story of those tragic events in ghetto, but I still see it`s a knowledge not quite widespread.

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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by michael mills » 21 Apr 2008 00:14

So it would appear that there is still quite a deal of disagreement about the true history of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. An examination of the rival claims about what actually happened would certainly be a more useful exercise than the sort of political grandstanding described in the initial posts in this thread.

Communist sources claim that the uprising was organised and led primarily by Jews with Communist affiliations. It is certainly true that the Jewish underground resistance within the ghetto was initially organised by Jewish Communists, and it was the leadership of the Communist organisation in the ghetto that issued the first public appeal for an uprising, in May 1942. In that appeal, which was signed by the Communist leaders in the ghetto, the reason given for an uprising was to assist the Red Army by creating a diversion in the German rear (the German lines of communication to the Russian Front passed through Poland).

However, the German Security Police succeeded in tracking down the Communist leaders in the Ghetto and eliminating them, and the planned uprising was thwarted. After the smashing of the Communist organisation, the leadership of the Jewish underground passed to leftist Zionists, in particular members of Hashomer Hatsair.

At least, that is what the accepted history tells us. It would appear that there is an alternative version, which claims that it was right-wing Jewish organisations that formed the backbone of the armed resistance in the ghetto.

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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by Patzinak » 23 Apr 2008 23:52

Liluh wrote:I would like to use the opportunity and bring up one topic strictly connected to Ghetto Uprising, about which, casual reader may be not aware due to long years of covering the facts and true history by communistic government. […] That is, the part of Jewish Military Union in Ghetto Uprising […]

That may be the case for the Polish audience. I'm far from well-read on this issue, but, AFAIK, the role of the ŻZW has not been obscured in Western publications. For instance,

Ainsztein, p62, wrote:[…] Under the command of David Apfelbaum, Paul Frenkel and Leon Rodal, the ŻZW with its large number of members who had held commissioned and non-commission ranks in the Polish Army reserves, became a well organized fighting force. Moreover, thanks to the arms supplied by [Cpt] Iwański's Security Corps and [Cpt] Ketling of PLAN, the ŻZW could rightly claim to be an incomparably more effective force than the ŻOB was at the time, even though the [latter] had a much larger membership. […]

Ainsztein, p67, wrote:[…] The ŻZW also acquired many of its arms for money, but was fortunate in having the wholehearted assistance of Iwański's and Ketling's groups, who did their best to buy for their Jewish friends the most effective weapons, which mostly came from German and Italian soldiers. […]

Ainsztein, pp97–98, wrote:[…] The ŻZW had had only 150 members at the beginning of January 1943, almost all of them members of the [Zionist] Revisionist Party or its youth organization Betar, but grew to 400 by the time of the revolt. Its commanders were David Apfelbaum, a reserve lieutenant in the Polish Army […] and Pawel Frenkel, a journalist. In the last 3 months before the revolt the ŻZW was joined by […] groups of porters and smugglers led by Janek Pika, whose real name remains unknown. […] While from Ketling it received weapons through a tunnel that linked the "Aryan" side of Karmelicka St with a bunker underneath the house at Karmelicka Nº 5, which was inside the ghetto, it was through another 50-yard-long tunnel linking the ŻZW command HQ at Muranowska Nº 7 with the "Aryan" side of the street that arms came from Iwański's Security Corps. Altogether [while ŻOB, in addition to hand-guns and grenades, had 10 rifles, 1 SMG and 1 LMG, but not enough ammunition for the latter] the ŻZW had at least 21 SMGs, 8 MGs, at least 30 rifles, and an unknown number of pistols and grenades.[…]

Moreover,

Ainsztein, pp98–99 wrote:[…] [In addition to ŻOB and ŻZW] there was an unknown number of armed groups organized by people who worked together or shared underground bunkers. […] One of these "wild groups", as they were known, was composed of orthodox Jews led by Drejzin, a chemical engineer, and Eleazar Frydenzon, a religious educationalist.

The wild groups provided themselves with their own arms, which included revolvers, pistols, grenades and Molotov cocktails, by buying them from Poles or, in the case of those who were employed on the railways, by stealing them from German troop trains. […]

The author's description of the revolt leaves no doubt that the ŻZW was the more effective fighting force, although, towards the end, few ŻZW or ŻOB members were left alive in the ghetto, and most of the fighting was done by "wild groups".

One other point. At the beginning of the revolt, on April 18, the Jewish groups "hoisted Polish white-red and Jewish white-blue flags, as well as at least one red flag, over the highest buildings in the ghetto" (p101). On April 20, when the SS took the ŻZW stronghold at Muranowska Nº 7/9 (the defenders had run out of ammunition), "a Polish and a Jewish flag" were still flying over it (p110). As a mere personal opinion of one who is neither Polish nor Jewish, it seems to me that the Jews who fought in the Warsaw Ghetto revolt fought not just as Jews, but as Polish Jews; and that Poles as well as Jews have every reason to be proud of them and honour them.

Source:
    Ainsztein, R (1979) The Warsaw Ghetto Revolt. New York: Holocaust Library. ISBN 0896040070.

--Patzinak

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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by michael mills » 25 Apr 2008 04:52

It is interesting that the book by Reuven Ainsztein quoted by Patzinak referes to red flags being hoisted over the ghetto somne elements among the Jewish insurgetns.

Four years ago, I posted data concerning the ideological stance of the members of the leftist Zionist youth organisation, Hashomer Hatsair, which provided the leadership for the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, that stance being essentially pro-Communist and pro-Soviet. Here is a copy of one of my posts from that time, addressing this issue. It casts doubt on the extent to which the Jewish insurgents saw their battle as also being in the interests of the Polish people; in fact, the material in my message show that the leaders of the Jewish insurgency looked forward to the future incorporation of Poland into the Soviet Union

In one of my previous messages, I referred to the fact that the book from which I have been quoting, "Poles, Jews, Socialists", contains an essay by Teresa Prekerowa countering some of the theses proposed by Shmuel Krakowski.

Krakowski claims that the sole reason why Jews welcomed the incoming Red Army and showed support for the Soviet Union was that it was the lesser of two evils; for Jews it was better to be under Soviet domination than under Nazi German rule. He describes the persecution of Jewish nationalist and religious organisations in the part of Poland annexed by the Soviet union, and goes on to write (p. 130):

But this repression, however cruel, was nothing in comparison with what the Jewish population experienced from the very first day of German occupation. This is why when the Jews were faced with a choice between the Germans and the Russians, they could not conceal their joy in those towns which were invaded by the Red Army rather than the Wehrmacht.


Teresa Prekerowa takes issue with that thesis. She writes (p. 149):

Krakowski does mention, albeit briefly, the problem of Jewish involvement in Polish affairs. He approaches it in the following way. Originally, the sole reason for the positive sentiments of many Jews towards the Red Army which had invaded eastern Poland was their fear of Nazi Germany. Later, in Nazi-occupied Poland, contacts with the Polish radical Left amounted to a tactical move, occasioned by the need to find assistance in view of the lack of help from the Home Army. The Jewish underground which was active in the Vilna and Byelorussian regions subordinated itself to the Soviet powers for the same reasons. These contentions seem to me so incompatible with the sources and documentation known to me that I feel obliged to write a few remarks by way of dissent.


Prekerowa then draws on material from the Jewish underground press in Poland to show that the Jewish resistance, both Communist and non-Communist, had a specific ideological predilection for the Soviet Union and Communism that went far beyond mere tactical manoeuvring. She shows that in the period before 1941, while the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact was still in force, left-wing Zionist organisations promoted the Communist interpretation of the ongoing German-British war "as a struggle between two capitalisms: the hungry one (German) and the satiated one (Western, especially English)".

She writes (p. 151):
Neged hazerem, a newspaper published by hashomer Hatsa'ir and edited by, inter alios, Mordechai Anielewicz, expressed the opinion that 'in this war neither side is more or less guilty' [my emphasis], because 'the responsibility for declaring the war belongs to all imperialist powers, regardless of which one of them made the first move in the war' (Feb 1941). The only just state which had a care for the interests of the Jewish working class was thought to be the USSR. In addition, according to Hashomer Hatsa'ir, 'the Soviet-German pact of August 1939 was a wise and justified move' (July 1941) [my emphasis]. It allowed the Soviet Union to realise its fundamental goals, which were 'strict neutrality and complete preparation for a struggle with the entire capitalist world, weakened by the war and its consequences.' (May 1941). The Zionists had no doubts about the imminence of such a struggle: 'The moment is near, when the Red Army with the help of the broad masses of workers and peasants will begin its historic march....Jewish working masses consider this this prospect to be their sole realistic hope for national and social liberation' (Proletarisher gedank, published by Po'alei Tsion Left, April 1941).


Wow! The Zionist leaders of the Jewish underground in the warsaw Ghetto, the heroes of the 1943 uprising, considered Germany and Britain to be equally guilty for the outbreak of the war!

Now that must throw a hefty spanner into the intellectual machinery of many of the members of this forum.

And for those forum members with a penchant for the Soviet Union, there is another big spanner. In April and May 1941, those Zionist leaders were well aware of Stalin's plans to send the Red Army crashing westwards once Germany and Britain had sufficiently weakened each other.

More from Prekerowa (p. 152):

In June 1941 this situation changed fundamentally. According to Zionist activists, at that time the Jewish people finally discovered where their essential self-interest actually lay. 'Among the Jews who, almost to a man, counted on a Soviet victory, the outbreak of war was greeted with great hopes', wrote Governor Ludwig Fischer. 'Many Jews began to don red ties ostentatiously in order to manifest their sympathies for the Soviet Union'. This time their joy was quite understandable.


Given the observable Jewish support for the Soviet Union, and the fact that this large Jewish population, albeit largely confined in ghettos, lay athwart Germany's vital lines of communication to its forces fighting on the Russian Front, is it any wonder that the German Government concluded that the concentration of Jews in Poland constituted a strategic danger that needed to be removed?

Prekerowa quotes from issues of the Hashomer Hatsa'ir publication Jutrznia [Dawn] in February and March 1942 (ie at a date when the deportations of Polish Jews was just beginning):

On the ruins of Fascist barbarism the liberated people of Europe, under the direction of the Soviet Union, will found a truly free European federation - a federation of free nations within the framework of the Socialist Union of Soviets ( 14 February 1942).

A victory for England or for the United States would result in a bourgeois democracy in Europe.........As long as capitalism continues to exist, the Jewish tragedy cannot end.......and it is only the Soviet Union which is capable of bringing about the destruction of capitalism. This is the direction, the only direction, on which the gaze of all those Jewish masses locked up in the ghettos should be fixed (21 february 1942).

Under the banner of victory for the Union of Soviets and a full liberation in Soviet Palestine [my emphasis], Jewish masses will join the battle for a better and more radiant future (21 March 1942).


As it happened, the German Government, in a pre-emptive strike, eliminated the Jewish masses before they could join the battle on the side of the Soviet Union.

Prekerowa continues:

In a lengthy article entitled 'Brothers in Arms', the editors of Jutrznia turned their attention to the Poles for the first time. Reminding them of all the harm which the people in the ghettos had suffered at the hands of informers, Polish police, and rich smugglers who were preying on the isolated and interned Jewish population, they declared that 'at the present time the Jewish and Polish nations are united by the most essential common objective....[Jews] must concentrate their hopes on a Soviet victory and on a settlement of the Jewish masses in Soviet Palestine', and that only 'a Soviet victory and a free Soviet Poland within the framework of the Soviet Union can ensure the realisation of Polish goals'.


No doubt the mass of the Polish population would have been quite happy for the Jewish masses to be settled in Palestine, Soviet or non-Soviet (they would have been oblivious to the wishes of the Palestinian Arabs).

But one doubts that Poles would have agreed with the Jews that the realisation of Polish goals would best be achieved in a "Soviet Poland within the framework of the Soviet Union". In fact, Poles would have been enraged at the idea. Is it any wonder therefore that Poles saw the Jews in their midst as traitors who were attempting to bring about Communist rule in their country and its annexation by the Soviet Union? Is it any wonder that they were relieved and secretly pleased when they saw the German occupiers eliminating this concentration of pro-Soviet population?


For those who would like to read the entire thread, here is the address:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47644&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Those of you who think that the Polish bystanders who witnessed the Jewish uprising regarded the Jewish fighters as heroes helping in the fight against the German oppressors would do well to look at this source which I posted in earlier messages on this thread:

http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~rhill/Cynth ... jewski.htm

It appears that the general attitude of the Polish bystanders was one of scorn for the German occupiers who were reduced to fighting a handful of Jews. Perhaps those bonlookers thought that a squadron of doughty Polish ulany would have rolled up the Jews much more quickly.

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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by Patzinak » 26 Apr 2008 05:18

michael mills wrote:It is interesting that the book […] referes to red flags being hoisted over the ghetto somne elements among the Jewish insurgetns. […]

What I find interesting is that a few days ago you wrote,

michael mills wrote:[…] that is what the accepted history tells us. It would appear that there is an alternative version […]

which shows utter ignorance of one of the basic facts of the Ghetto revolt, ie the role of the ŻZW, although Ainsztein (published almost 30 years ago!) is widely cited; and, in fact, Stroop mentions ŻZW, like ŻOB, by name (although the abbreviation is misspelled as "ZWZ"; eg, May 8); while in his summary he describes the ŻZW in Muranowski Square as "the main Jewish battle [or combat] group".

michael mills wrote:Four years ago, I posted data concerning the ideological stance of the members of the leftist Zionist youth organisation, Hashomer Hatsair, which provided the leadership for the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, that stance being essentially pro-Communist and pro-Soviet. […]

That the Marxist Hashomer was pro-Soviet (or, to be more accurate, that it regarded the USSR as Hitler's main opponent) is hardly news. That Hashomer "provided the leadership for the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto" is your fantasy. ŻOB was made up of combat groups organised by political affiliation: 14 Zionist (of which 4 Hashomer), 4 Bundist, 5 Communist (Ainsztein, p97). The military leadership reflected this composition: Anielewicz (Hashomer), commander, with a staff of 2 non-Hashomer Zionists, 1 Communist, and 1 Bundist. The political committee consisted of 1 non-Hashomer Zionist, 1 Bundist, and 1 Communist (Ainsztein, p61).

Anielewicz's election as commander was not due to pro-Soviet views or membership in Hashomer, but to the fact that, among the "highly idealistic, politically oriented youngsters with almost no previous military experience" which made up the ŻOB (Arens, p218), he was one of the very few with a previous interest in military matters -- ironically, as a result of his being a member of Betar before joining Hashomer (Ainsztein, p63).

Later, talking about the action on April 27, Stroop recalled:

MacLean, p68, wrote:[…] Some sub-humans gave up and surrendered; others fought to the last, cursing and insulting us or singing the Polish anthem or some of those psalms of theirs. […]

The heroes we choose to honour do not speak of history -- they speak of what we want to be. Some people choose to live locked into an ugly past, feeding on ancient hatreds like maggots on pieces of rotten fruit. Others choose a different path; they honour the Anielewiczes, the Apfelbaums, the Iwańskis, not because they were the majority -- most of the Jews didn't fight, and most of the Poles didn't help -- but because of what they fought for.

Sources:
    Ainsztein, R (1979) The Warsaw Ghetto Revolt. New York: Holocaust Library. ISBN 0896040070.

    Arens, M (2005) The Jewish Military Organization (ŻZW) in the Warsaw Ghetto. Holocaust Genocide Studies 19(2): 201–25.

    MacLean, FL (2001) The Ghetto Men : The SS Destruction of the Jewish Warsaw Ghetto, April–May 1943. Atglen, PA: Schiffer Publishing. ISBN 0764312855.

--Patzinak

michael mills
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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by michael mills » 27 Apr 2008 02:31

Others choose a different path; they honour the Anielewiczes, the Apfelbaums, the Iwańskis, not because they were the majority -- most of the Jews didn't fight, and most of the Poles didn't help -- but because of what they fought for.



Well, what were the Jewish insurgents fighting for?

At least some of them were fighting to create a Soviet Palestine (ie a Jewish one, at the expense of the native inhabitants), and a Soviet Poland within the framework of the Soviet Union. That was the stated aim of Hashomer Hatsair (and presumably of the Communists among the insurgents).

Others, like the right-wing Zionists, presumably were not in favour of a Soviet Palestine, and probably did not care what happened to Poland, but they did have as their aim a Jewish Palestine, involving the dispossession of the native inhabitants.

One aim of the uprising, proclaimed by the Jewish resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto since at least May 1942, was to assist the Red Amry by creating a diversion in the German rear.

Maybe the Jewish insurgents in Poland were fighting for much the same thing that some groups of insurgents in present-day Iraq are fighting for.

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Patzinak
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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by Patzinak » 27 Apr 2008 02:54

michael mills wrote:[…]Well, what were the Jewish insurgents fighting for?


MacLean, p159, wrote:[…]Knowing they were ultimately doomed, the defenders fought not for victory, but for dignity […]


michael mills wrote:[…]At least some of them were fighting to create a Soviet Palestine […]

And you know that because you've studied the issue in depth, as your previous posts (which show that you hadn't even heard of ŻZW, although you were posting opinions on the subject even as far back as four years ago) amply demonstrate. Chapeau!

Source:
    MacLean, FL (2001) The Ghetto Men : The SS Destruction of the Jewish Warsaw Ghetto, April–May 1943. Atglen, PA: Schiffer Publishing. ISBN 0764312855.

--Patzinak

Peter K
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Re: 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Post by Peter K » 18 Aug 2008 00:06

In Poland for saving or hiding a Jew during the war there was a capital punishment.

In every of other occupied countries - only fine.

Despite this - these are Poles who have received the biggest number of Chasid Umot ha-Olam medals - 30% of all medals - many of them received these medals posthumous (and they were killed because they deserved for these medals).

PS: I wanted to write this in the discussion "Did the Polish people profit from the extermination of Jews?", but I saw that it is closed.

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