6 million

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Xanthro
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Post by Xanthro » 19 Apr 2002 18:13

The total number of Jews killed will never be known with precision.

There are many methodological reasons for this, what consitutes a death to count against the Holocaust, lack of records because of the war, and the general state of destruction of Europe after the war.

People in a large group are always dieing, how many deaths do you count where people in ghettos died? All because they are in ghettos not getting enough food? None, because they weren't directly killed. What about disease? Do you count these deaths.

Does a missing person count as dead or must you have a record of the person dieing?

Not every Jew was counted before the war and of those who were many records were destroyed. The conditions after the war were hardly conducive to a census.

All of Europe was in ruins, this made it even more difficult to get an exact count. We still don't know the exact number of people killed in the World Trade Centers, and this is modern America. Think of how hard it would have been in post war Europe.

The common figure is given as 6 million. This is reached by various methods, but it could be off by as much as 50%, in other words, 4 to 8 million could have been killed. Even 1 million would be murder at an unknown rate in modern history.

Xanthro

Robert Murphy
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Post by Robert Murphy » 20 Apr 2002 06:25

Sirs,

Well!! How about that!! Only ONE million jes were killed!! And to think that all this time I thought the Nazi's were a bunch of murdering, genocidal maggots!! I mean, come on: one million jews killed? Himmler was indeed a moderate!
"Direct democracy is founded upon the notion that the people know what is best for them, and deserve to get it. Good and hard."

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Pumpkin
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Post by Pumpkin » 20 Apr 2002 18:09

Birgitte Heuschkel:
It is important that we remember, and that we strive to avoid repetition. Yet I will still maintain that spending energy preventing disasters from repeating is more important than haggling over exact numbers.
Well, the way everyone is constantly reminded only about the victims of nazism, there is a risk that we forget the victims of communism, who by any account are manyfold more. Or, to push the line of what is legal to say, the victims of jews! Say, for instance: Lenin, Trotski and Beria... [EDITED COMMENT: This was wrong of me. Only Trotski can be said to be jewish]
Last edited by Pumpkin on 21 Apr 2002 14:02, edited 1 time in total.

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 20 Apr 2002 18:36

Pumpkin wrote:Say, for instance: Lenin, Trotski and Beria...
Lenin was Russian.

Beria was Georgian/Mingreli.

~Ovidius

Pumpkin
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Post by Pumpkin » 20 Apr 2002 20:06

Nope! They were both of jewish origin. [EDITED COMMENT: Wrong of me. Neither Lenin nor Beria can be said to be jewish!]

As was Karl Marx and many other communists (and coincidently, Stalins wife). A majority of the ministers of Lenin's government were of jewish origin. And it wasn't hard for the nazis to point out some jewish american capitalists who sponsored the early Soviet. This fact explains why anti-communism became anti-sionism in nazi propaganda. Ignoring this will prevent you from understanding the rise of nazism.
Last edited by Pumpkin on 21 Apr 2002 14:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 20 Apr 2002 20:54

Pumpkin wrote:Nope! They were both of jewish origin. As was Karl Marx and many other communists (and coincidently, Stalins wife). A majority of the ministers of Lenin's government were of jewish origin. And it wasn't hard for the nazis to point out some jewish american capitalists who sponsored the early Soviet. This fact explains why anti-communism became anti-sionism in nazi propaganda. Ignoring this will prevent you from understanding the rise of nazism.
Looks like we got another Nazi-loving Jew hater with us. Welcome to the real world, True Believer.

Not that I have any sympathies for Lenin, but how does my friend know he was a Jew? Has he found his Stammbaum, perhaps? I'm definitely curious.

Regarding the question who of the greatest killers of the last century was worst, also addressed by our new friend, here’s a short summary for beginners:
Question: Who was the Bloodiest Tyrant of the 20th Century?
Answer: We don't know.
That's probably the saddest fact of the Twentieth Century. There are so many candidates for the award of top monster that we can't decide between them. Whether it's Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong or Iosif Stalin is, quite frankly, anybody's guess.

For now, let's just skip over the whole margin of error thing -- reasonable people have studied the evidence and come up with wildly differing numbers. You're free to check my sources, but for now, trust me. I've studied the matter at great length and decided that the most likely death toll for these three are:

TYRANT DEATHS
Mao 40Million
Hitler 34M
Stalin 20M

Well, that certainly looks like Mao is our man, but wait. Mao's largest crime is the Great Leap Forward, a bungled attempt to restructure the economy of China which created a famine that killed some 30M. If we confine our indictment to deliberate killings, we get this:

TYRANT KILLINGS
Hitler 34M
Stalin 20M
Mao 10M

So it's Hitler, right? Except that most of the deaths on his head were caused by the Second World War. Sure, he started it, but our society does not blanketly condemn the starting of wars (after all, we reserve the right to do it ourselves in a just cause), and we certainly don't consider killing armed enemy soldiers in a fair fight to be a crime against humanity. If we therefore confine ourselves to the cold-blooded murder of unarmed non-combatants, our table rearranges itself again:

TYRANT MURDERS
Stalin 20M
Hitler 15M
Mao 10M

This brings Stalin floating to the top. So it look like once you reduce their crimes to the unjustifiably lowest common denominator, then Stalin is worst; however, you might want to argue that dead is dead so it really doesn't matter if you give your victims a chance to fight back. Fighting an unjust or reckless war is certainly a crime against humanity, so our numbers should go back to:

TYRANT KILLINGS
Hitler 34M
Stalin 20M
Mao 10M

... and these are just the problems we'll encounter if we accept my numbers without debate. If we want to use the estimates of other scholars, we can pin up to 50 million murders on Stalin, enough to push him to the top of the list regardless of definition. Or we can whittle him down to 10 million murders if we use the low end of the margin of error, and scrounge several more tens of millions for Mao, or away from him.

So, the answer to the question of "Who is roasting on the hottest fires in Hell?" is "Well, that depends..."
Source of quote:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

Dan
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Post by Dan » 20 Apr 2002 23:01

Pumpkin wrote:Nope! They were both of jewish origin. As was Karl Marx and many other communists (and coincidently, Stalins wife). A majority of the ministers of Lenin's government were of jewish origin. And it wasn't hard for the nazis to point out some jewish american capitalists who sponsored the early Soviet. This fact explains why anti-communism became anti-sionism in nazi propaganda. Ignoring this will prevent you from understanding the rise of nazism.
There is no evidence that Lenin or Berea were Jews. One of Stalin's wives was, though. A disproportionate number of high officials were Jewish, but that's a far cry from the majority. Perhaps you could point to a list of names to back your claim?

Pumpkin
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Post by Pumpkin » 21 Apr 2002 00:44

Here's a revisionist article about jews and the Russian revolution. (Look at the tables at the end for a "list")

http://ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html

Well, I was obviously mistaken about Lenin. This is not the kind of subjects I study, but it's obvious that disproportionate number of leading communist theoreticians and practicians have been jewish.
Looks like we got another Nazi-loving Jew hater with us
Well it's nice to see that you haven't got any prejudices and open up for a discussion in a nice manner!

So you don't recognize any apparent connection between jewish groups and communism? You don't think this explains the connection between communism and sionism that the fascist made?

Now for the obvious explanation that unfortunately is necessary in the presence of those who see the Devil everywhere: Most jews are non-political, and there are probably more non-socialists than socialists among the politically active. And of course jews is very heterogenous as an ethnic group and I would not blame any individual for anything he/she isn't personally responsible for. But it is also obvious that the groups that established Soviet Union, and it's world wide socialist network, had a strong representation of jews. There's no denying that. This does not mean that ALL jews are responsible for that or that I agree with any fascist anti-sionism or that I hate jews, as your imbicil defamation claims. But it helps us understand the cause of communism, and hence the cause of anti-communism a.k.a. fascism.

Pumpkin
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Post by Pumpkin » 21 Apr 2002 00:53

Now, let's speak with WInston Churchill: From his article in London Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 8, 1920.
There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate, Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd), or of Krassin or Radek -- all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combatting Counter-Revolution [the Cheka] has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses
But Winston Churchill is just another jew hater in your eyes, I suppose?

Dan
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Post by Dan » 21 Apr 2002 01:57

Here's a revisionist article about jews and the Russian revolution. (Look at the tables at the end for a "list")

http://ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html
This is a good article, and I thank you, but what about Berea?

michael mills
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Leni's Stammbaum

Post by michael mills » 21 Apr 2002 06:35

Not that I have any sympathies for Lenin, but how does my friend know he was a Jew? Has he found his Stammbaum, perhaps? I'm definitely curious.
Lenin's maternal grandfather, Sender Blank, was born a Jew. He converted to Russian Orthodoxy which meant that he was no longer considered Jewish according to the criteria applied in Tsarist Russia.

Lenin's mother, Esther Blank, was therefore at least 50% of Jewish origin, and maybe 100% if her mother, Sender's wife, was also a converted Jewess (I have no information on that point). Accordingly, under the Nuremberg Laws, Lenin was a "Mischling" of either the first or second degree (half-Jew or quarter-Jew), depending on his mother's status.

Lenin's father, Il'ia Ul'ianov, was a member of the Russian minor nobility, being of mixed Chuvach and Kalmyk origin, the latter accounting for Lenin's rather Mongoloid physical features.

The real question is, to what extent did Lenin's Jewish ancestry influence his cultural status and his outlook. He was brought up in a Russian cultural environment, without any Judaic traces so far as I know. There are certainly Judaic elements in Marxism, but if those elements appear in Lenin's thought, it would surely be due to his adoption of a Marxist philosophy rather than cultural influences from the side of his family that had formerly been Jewish.

It is possible that Lenin's knowledge of his partial Jewish ancestry made have made him more sympathetic to Jews than some other Marxist leaders of "pure" Russian ancestry, such as Plekhanov or Bakunin.

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Beria

Post by michael mills » 21 Apr 2002 06:48

This is a good article, and I thank you, but what about Berea?
Beria was not of Jewish origin, but he did impress observers as being particularly philosemitic, particularly in contrast with Stalin. Immediately upon the latter's death in March 1953, Beria called a halt to the investigation of the so-called "doctors' plot" which had started in January of that year (six of the 15 alleged "plotters" were Jews) and released the imprisoned doctors.

Beria's philosemitism led to false rumours that he was himself of part-Jewish origin.

One of the earlier NKVD leaders, Genrikh Iagoda, was certainly Jewish. The founder of the Cheka, Feliks Dzerzhinski, was a member of the Polish nobility but was under strong Jewish influence in the environment of the Partja Polska Socjalistyczna; he was closely connected to leftist Jewish circles, and his three mistresses were Jewesses. One does not need to be a Jew in order to promote a program favourable to Jewish interests.

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Rob S.
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Post by Rob S. » 21 Apr 2002 13:53

Interesting side note: Judiaism teaches that you are only Jewish if your blood mother is. If only your blood father was jewish, you still must convert to Judiaism before practicing.

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Post by Pumpkin » 21 Apr 2002 14:00

Well, I've found no support for Beria being jewish in any way. I was wrong there too. Sorry for confusing this touchy subject! But there is not much good information easily available on this subject, and I actually haven't read much about it.

The point I tried to make, was that there is a disproportionate jewish influence in the history of communism (Soviet). For this, there is support. And that this "grain of truth" is what lead nazis (and some moderate contemporaries) to connect communism with sionism. Henchmen who murdered civilian jews, thus maybe in their minds took revenge on communist criminals. Now, such an collective ethnic blame is of course horrific and foreign to western ideals of individualism. As is, in my opinion, attempts to surpress, or even failing to "help us remember", the fact that SOME jewish groups obviously systematically have supported, participated in and even initiated communist atrocities. The black-and-white history writing, which even 50 years later tries to overjustify the policies of the allies (of which Stalin was one), can't be much more enlightning to us than one-sided war propaganda.

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Post by Kephra » 21 Apr 2002 14:17

Pumpkin wrote:But there is not much information available on this subject, and I actually haven't read much about it.

The point I tried to make, was that there is a disproportionate jewish influence in the history of communism (Soviet).
This topic has something of 'Pandoras Box'. If you want it to open - click here:
http://www2.prestel.co.uk/littleton/re4 ... ritton.htm

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