6 million

[Hans]

Curious discussion. Most communists were atheist and did not believe in something else than communism. There were certainly few, if any at all, communist leaders who were actually Jews.

Having a father/grandfather or mother/grandmother who was some time ago a Jew is no criteria to be a Jew, it is the wishfull thinking of the Jewish religion and the paranoia of antisemites and rascists. Marx had a jewish mother, but he was educated catholic and he was an atheist in later years, so certainly no Jew.

Hans

[Dan]

Curious discussion. Most communists were atheist and did not believe in something else than communism. There were certainly few, if any at all, communist leaders who were actually Jews.

Having a father/grandfather or mother/grandmother who was some time ago a Jew is no criteria to be a Jew, it is the wishfull thinking of the Jewish religion and the paranoia of antisemites and rascists. Marx had a jewish mother, but he was educated catholic and he was an atheist in later years, so certainly no Jew.

Hans

But he, if he were alive today, could immigrate to Israel and immediately recieve full citizenship, where you or I could not.

Off topic,
best
Dan

[Ovidius]

Curious discussion. Most communists were atheist and did not believe in something else than communism. There were certainly few, if any at all, communist leaders who were actually Jews.

Having a father/grandfather or mother/grandmother who was some time ago a Jew is no criteria to be a Jew, it is the wishfull thinking of the Jewish religion and the paranoia of antisemites and rascists. Marx had a jewish mother, but he was educated catholic and he was an atheist in later years, so certainly no Jew.

Hans

Judaism is a religion. Jewishness is not a religion, but an ethnicity, based on common language, history and culture. Threfore an ethnic Jew can be Judaic, Atheist, or whatever.

~Ovidius

[Hans]

BTW, What does Jewishness mean in German?

[Pumpkin]

I think ethnicity as such is of very limited importance (I don't give much for anti-semitic propaganda about the "nature of the jew"). What matters for political power, I think, is social networks of individuals. Such networks naturally coincide with ethnicity to a great extent (more so earlier than in today's society I believe). Partly because people of same etnicity tend to have more in common and socialize more with each other. Partly because through family and relatives, ethnicity and social contacts are naturally merged. Some predominantly jewish groups around the world were likely parts of the networks of the exiled Russian jews who came to power with Lenin. Talking about "jewish influence" in Soviet would thus be a proxy for the (only partly jewish) mafia-like network that brought about the Russian revolution.

The relevant unit in real political analysis is neither individual, nor ethnic group, and even not formal organizations, but less tangible social networks.

Throughout Leonid Breznev's career, he is said to have surrounded himself with old friends from his home village in Ukraina and fellow students from his university. People who came to occupy important positions in the Soviet state. A network, but not a very etnocentric one.

[Ovidius]

BTW, What does Jewishness mean in German?

I used it as to denominate the Jew/Hebrew ethnic group, and to separate the "ethnic Jew", which can be of any religion, from the "Judaic" - man belonging to the Judaic religion.

Former member in the old forum "VVVVV93" aka Marc Cohen, described himself as ethnic Hebrew, but enemy of the Judaic "false religion".

~Ovidius

[tonyh]

One does not have to be of the Jewish faith to be "Jewish". A friend I had a while ago, was a "blood Jew", his words. But was raised in the Catholic faith.

Tony

[viriato]

A correction to Mr. Mill

Lenin's paternal grandfather, Nicolai, was a russian. He married, while living in Astrakhan, a kalmuk woman. Nicolai was a tailor. Their son, Ilia, studied at the University of Kazan. He was a teacher of maths and later on his life was State councillor and was promoted to the heriditary nobility.

Lenin's mother was Esther Blank, as you correctly said. But her ancestry is a little more complicated. In fact her father, Lenin's grandfather, Alexader Sender of Zhitomir, had a jewish father and a swedish mother. This Alexander Sender was a doctor and became rich, after converting to ortodoxy. He even bought an estate, Kokuchkino, that would turn out to be a valuable asset for Lenin later in his life. He married an Ana Groschoft, Lenin' grandmother, who descended from a family of rich estate owners of german extraction. She was lutheran.

So Lenin was:

25% german
25% kalmuk
25% russian
12,5% jew
12,5% swedish

A true melting-pot, right?

By the way my source does not speak of a chuvach ancestry. Perhaps his paternal garndfather was not russian (chuvach then...) or only of partial russian ancestry?

Source: Hélène Carrère d'Encausse, Lenine - portuguese edition of 1999. the original is by Librairie Arthème Fayard, 1998

[Ovidius]

Interesting. I have great respect for Madame d'Encausse's works.

However, the "blood" is irrelevant for Lenin. He was born and raised in a Russian environment, and had no connection to Jewish groups.

As for my definition of ethnicity, I'll stick to the one that is dictated by logic:

A man is part of a certain ethnic group if he considers himself to be part of it, and is accepted as such by the fellow members of this ethnic group. Therefore, if a man claims to be Jew(or Russian, German, Pole, Romanian etc) and is accepted by other Jews(Russians, Germans etc), he must be part of the respective ethnic group.

~Ovidius

[Pumpkin]

Very reasonable and pragmatic definition, Ovidius! Inspite of it being logically imperfect, and maybe even a circular reasoning to be pedantic, (who is the first to be defined as X?) it captures what is socially relevant with ethnicity. Ethnicity is a social phenomena, not a legal constuction (or a biological fact of nature as some claimed back then) and is thus subject to inconcistencies and wageness. Any working definition must recognize and encompass that.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Here's a revisionist article about jews and the Russian revolution. (Look at the tables at the end for a "list")

http://ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html

Well, I was obviously mistaken about Lenin. This is not the kind of subjects I study, but it's obvious that disproportionate number of leading communist theoreticians and practicians have been jewish.

Looks like we got another Nazi-loving Jew hater with us

Well it's nice to see that you haven't got any prejudices and open up for a discussion in a nice manner!

So you don't recognize any apparent connection between jewish groups and communism? You don't think this explains the connection between communism and sionism that the fascist made?

Now for the obvious explanation that unfortunately is necessary in the presence of those who see the Devil everywhere: Most jews are non-political, and there are probably more non-socialists than socialists among the politically active. And of course jews is very heterogenous as an ethnic group and I would not blame any individual for anything he/she isn't personally responsible for. But it is also obvious that the groups that established Soviet Union, and it's world wide socialist network, had a strong representation of jews. There's no denying that. This does not mean that ALL jews are responsible for that or that I agree with any fascist anti-sionism or that I hate jews, as your imbicil defamation claims. But it helps us understand the cause of communism, and hence the cause of anti-communism a.k.a. fascism.

oh for crying out loud we've been over it http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... D=32.topic

[Roberto]

Here's a revisionist article about jews and the Russian revolution. (Look at the tables at the end for a "list")

http://ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html

Well, I was obviously mistaken about Lenin. This is not the kind of subjects I study, but it's obvious that disproportionate number of leading communist theoreticians and practicians have been jewish.

Really? Let's see some figures, then. Preferably not from the IHR and like-minded sources. I don't trust them, you know.

Looks like we got another Nazi-loving Jew hater with us

Well it's nice to see that you haven't got any prejudices and open up for a discussion in a nice manner!

No prejudices, but observation of "Revisionist" nonsense for over one and a half years plus a reasonable assessment of my new friend's writings. Whether discussion in a nice manner is nevertheless possible depends entirely on you.

So you don't recognize any apparent connection between jewish groups and communism?

No, but I'm open to be covinced otherwise by facts and figures.

You don't think this explains the connection between communism and sionism that the fascist made?

Definitely not. That connection was a propaganda hoax that came in handy for the fascists.

Now for the obvious explanation that unfortunately is necessary in the presence of those who see the Devil everywhere:

You don't mean folks like yourself who are scared of the all-powerful Jews, by any chance?

Most jews are non-political, and there are probably more non-socialists than socialists among the politically active. And of course jews is very heterogenous as an ethnic group and I would not blame any individual for anything he/she isn't personally responsible for.

Sounds nice.

But it is also obvious that the groups that established Soviet Union, and it's world wide socialist network, had a strong representation of jews.

Here the flicker of reason end. Assuming that Jews were strongly represented or even "overrepresented" in the "world wide socialist network", would that make it a Jewish network or a network that happened to appeal to Jews more than to non-Jews for any reason whatever?

There's no denying that. This does not mean that ALL jews are responsible for that or that I agree with any fascist anti-sionism or that I hate jews, as your imbicil defamation claims.

If that's your idea of "discussion in a nice manner", at least get the spelling right.

But it helps us understand the cause of communism

Jewishness helps us understand the cause of Communism? And I thought it was Capitalism. Or is that also Jewish?

, and hence the cause of anti-communism a.k.a. fascism.

The cause of fascism? To a certain extent, yes. But more one of the main causes for its wide success than a cause for its coming into being, I would say, at least in the case of German fascism, also known as National Socialism.

[Rob S.]

Hans: Judentum

Jews as an ethnicity according to secular records is recorded like any other. According to Judaism ethnicity is not even necessarily acknowledged unless your blood mother was an ethnic jew.

[michael mills]

Mr Muehlenkamp wrote:

Really? Let's see some figures, then. Preferably not from the IHR and like-minded sources. I don't trust them, you know.

Here's a short ( and very incomplete) list of Jewish Communist functionaries I extracted from the book "Stalin's War Against the Jews", by the Jewish right-wing nationalist, Louis Rappoport.

(By the way, right-wing Jews are a very good, if biassed, source of information on Jewish Bolsheviks. They never tire of taking their left-wing fellow Jews to task for their past flirtation with the "Red Devil").

Julius martov (Menshevik)
David Axelrod
Lev Borisovich Rosenfeld (Kamenev) Wife Olga bronstein, trotsky’s sister
Semyon (Solomon) Lozovsky, Deputy Foreign Minister
Mikhail Borodin (ne gruzenberg), adviser to Jiang Jieshi
Maxim Litvinov (ne Wallach), Foreign Minister
Yakov Mikhailovich Sverdlov, first Soviet President
Samuel Agursky, co-head of Jewish Commissariat (Yevkom), former Bundist
Lev mekhlis, Stalin’s secretary, former Bundist, NKVD general
Karl Radek
A A Yoffe
David Ryazanov, biographer of marx
Jan Sten, marxist philosopher
Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich, former Bundist
Mikhail Yosifovich Auerbach, lenin’s chief physician
Yakov Savlovich Agranov, senior Chekist
Drs Weisbrod, Moshenberg, and lev Grigorievich Levin, Stalin’s personal doctors in 20s
Genrikh Yagoda, chief Kremlin pharmacist, a toxicologist, Police chief from 1934.
Matvei Berman, created Gulag in 1922
Aron Soltz, Chekist
Naftali Frenkel, Chekist, “nerve” of Gulag, from 1932 in charge of construction of White
Sea-Baltic Canal
Firin, Kogan, Rappoport, Zhuk, overseers of Canal
Boris Berman, brother of Matvei, Chekist
K V Pauker, Cheka chief of operations
Lev Inzhir, chief accountant of Gulag in 30s (the "Jewish Eichmann")
General Yona Yakir
General Dmitri Shmit
M I Gay, chief of a secret police department
A A Slutsky, head of espionage abroad
Shpigelglas, deputy to Slutsky
Moishe Litvakov
Esther frumkin
Peretz Markish, propagandist, advocated deportation of Volga germans and establishment of a Jewish Soviet republic on their lands
V S Avakumov, head of SMERSH during war.


A final note. By immediately insulting "Pumpkin" as a "Nazi-loving Jew-hater" merely because he raised the subject of the collaboration of a large number of Jews with Russian Bolshevism, you reveal that Judeocentrism which so distorts your thought-processes.

[Roberto]

Mr Muehlenkamp wrote:
Quote:
Really? Let's see some figures, then. Preferably not from the IHR and like-minded sources. I don't trust them, you know.


Here's a short ( and very incomplete) list of Jewish Communist functionaries I extracted from the book "Stalin's War Against the Jews", by the Jewish right-wing nationalist, Louis Rappoport.

(By the way, right-wing Jews are a very good, if biassed, source of information on Jewish Bolsheviks. They never tire of taking their left-wing fellow Jews to task for their past flirtation with the "Red Devil").

Julius martov (Menshevik)
David Axelrod
Lev Borisovich Rosenfeld (Kamenev) Wife Olga bronstein, trotsky’s sister
Semyon (Solomon) Lozovsky, Deputy Foreign Minister
Mikhail Borodin (ne gruzenberg), adviser to Jiang Jieshi
Maxim Litvinov (ne Wallach), Foreign Minister
Yakov Mikhailovich Sverdlov, first Soviet President
Samuel Agursky, co-head of Jewish Commissariat (Yevkom), former Bundist
Lev mekhlis, Stalin’s secretary, former Bundist, NKVD general
Karl Radek
A A Yoffe
David Ryazanov, biographer of marx
Jan Sten, marxist philosopher
Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich, former Bundist
Mikhail Yosifovich Auerbach, lenin’s chief physician
Yakov Savlovich Agranov, senior Chekist
Drs Weisbrod, Moshenberg, and lev Grigorievich Levin, Stalin’s personal doctors in 20s
Genrikh Yagoda, chief Kremlin pharmacist, a toxicologist, Police chief from 1934.
Matvei Berman, created Gulag in 1922
Aron Soltz, Chekist
Naftali Frenkel, Chekist, “nerve” of Gulag, from 1932 in charge of construction of White
Sea-Baltic Canal
Firin, Kogan, Rappoport, Zhuk, overseers of Canal
Boris Berman, brother of Matvei, Chekist
K V Pauker, Cheka chief of operations
Lev Inzhir, chief accountant of Gulag in 30s (the "Jewish Eichmann")
General Yona Yakir
General Dmitri Shmit
M I Gay, chief of a secret police department
A A Slutsky, head of espionage abroad
Shpigelglas, deputy to Slutsky
Moishe Litvakov
Esther frumkin
Peretz Markish, propagandist, advocated deportation of Volga germans and establishment of a Jewish Soviet republic on their lands
V S Avakumov, head of SMERSH during war.

Interesting. I ask for figures, and I get a list of names. I wonder how long a list of the names of the members of the respective organs of Russian, Ukrainian or Georgian ethnicity would be. How about a breakdown by ethnicity of the respective organs during given periods and a comparison to the composition of the population at the respective time?

A final note. By immediately insulting "Pumpkin" as a "Nazi-loving Jew-hater" merely because he raised the subject of the collaboration of a large number of Jews with Russian Bolshevism, you reveal that Judeocentrism which so distorts your thought-processes.

By constantly rambling about my “Judeocentrism”, Michael Mills reveals the judeophobic paranoia that distorts his own thought process, I would say. What Pumpkin tries to do is to portray communism as a “Jewish” phenomenon:

Nope! They [Lenin and Beria] were both of jewish origin. As was Karl Marx and many other communists (and coincidently, Stalins wife). A majority of the ministers of Lenin's government were of jewish origin. And it wasn't hard for the nazis to point out some jewish american capitalists who sponsored the early Soviet. This fact explains why anti-communism became anti-sionism in nazi propaganda. Ignoring this will prevent you from understanding the rise of nazism.

One thing is whether there was a disproportionately large number of Jews in a given organization, which I don’t see having been demonstrated yet. Another is whether this makes such organization a “Jewish” organization rather than just an organization where there happen to be many Jews.