6 million
-
- Member
- Posts: 651
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002 15:48
- Location: Germany
Re: Leni's Stammbaum
Curious discussion. Most communists were atheist and did not believe in something else than communism. There were certainly few, if any at all, communist leaders who were actually Jews.
Having a father/grandfather or mother/grandmother who was some time ago a Jew is no criteria to be a Jew, it is the wishfull thinking of the Jewish religion and the paranoia of antisemites and rascists. Marx had a jewish mother, but he was educated catholic and he was an atheist in later years, so certainly no Jew.
Hans
Having a father/grandfather or mother/grandmother who was some time ago a Jew is no criteria to be a Jew, it is the wishfull thinking of the Jewish religion and the paranoia of antisemites and rascists. Marx had a jewish mother, but he was educated catholic and he was an atheist in later years, so certainly no Jew.
Hans
-
- Member
- Posts: 8429
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
- Location: California
Re: Leni's Stammbaum
But he, if he were alive today, could immigrate to Israel and immediately recieve full citizenship, where you or I could not.Hans wrote:Curious discussion. Most communists were atheist and did not believe in something else than communism. There were certainly few, if any at all, communist leaders who were actually Jews.
Having a father/grandfather or mother/grandmother who was some time ago a Jew is no criteria to be a Jew, it is the wishfull thinking of the Jewish religion and the paranoia of antisemites and rascists. Marx had a jewish mother, but he was educated catholic and he was an atheist in later years, so certainly no Jew.
Hans
Off topic,
best
Dan
-
- Member
- Posts: 1414
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
- Location: Romania
Re: Leni's Stammbaum
Judaism is a religion. Jewishness is not a religion, but an ethnicity, based on common language, history and culture. Threfore an ethnic Jew can be Judaic, Atheist, or whatever.Hans wrote:Curious discussion. Most communists were atheist and did not believe in something else than communism. There were certainly few, if any at all, communist leaders who were actually Jews.
Having a father/grandfather or mother/grandmother who was some time ago a Jew is no criteria to be a Jew, it is the wishfull thinking of the Jewish religion and the paranoia of antisemites and rascists. Marx had a jewish mother, but he was educated catholic and he was an atheist in later years, so certainly no Jew.
Hans
~Ovidius
-
- Member
- Posts: 651
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002 15:48
- Location: Germany
Re: Leni's Stammbaum
BTW, What does Jewishness mean in German?
-
- Member
- Posts: 216
- Joined: 19 Apr 2002 14:38
- Location: Stockholm
I think ethnicity as such is of very limited importance (I don't give much for anti-semitic propaganda about the "nature of the jew"). What matters for political power, I think, is social networks of individuals. Such networks naturally coincide with ethnicity to a great extent (more so earlier than in today's society I believe). Partly because people of same etnicity tend to have more in common and socialize more with each other. Partly because through family and relatives, ethnicity and social contacts are naturally merged. Some predominantly jewish groups around the world were likely parts of the networks of the exiled Russian jews who came to power with Lenin. Talking about "jewish influence" in Soviet would thus be a proxy for the (only partly jewish) mafia-like network that brought about the Russian revolution.
The relevant unit in real political analysis is neither individual, nor ethnic group, and even not formal organizations, but less tangible social networks.
Throughout Leonid Breznev's career, he is said to have surrounded himself with old friends from his home village in Ukraina and fellow students from his university. People who came to occupy important positions in the Soviet state. A network, but not a very etnocentric one.
The relevant unit in real political analysis is neither individual, nor ethnic group, and even not formal organizations, but less tangible social networks.
Throughout Leonid Breznev's career, he is said to have surrounded himself with old friends from his home village in Ukraina and fellow students from his university. People who came to occupy important positions in the Soviet state. A network, but not a very etnocentric one.
-
- Member
- Posts: 1414
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
- Location: Romania
Re: Leni's Stammbaum
I used it as to denominate the Jew/Hebrew ethnic group, and to separate the "ethnic Jew", which can be of any religion, from the "Judaic" - man belonging to the Judaic religion.Hans wrote:BTW, What does Jewishness mean in German?
Former member in the old forum "VVVVV93" aka Marc Cohen, described himself as ethnic Hebrew, but enemy of the Judaic "false religion".
~Ovidius
-
- Member
- Posts: 717
- Joined: 21 Apr 2002 13:23
- Location: Porto,Portugal
Lenin's ancestry
A correction to Mr. Mill
Lenin's paternal grandfather, Nicolai, was a russian. He married, while living in Astrakhan, a kalmuk woman. Nicolai was a tailor. Their son, Ilia, studied at the University of Kazan. He was a teacher of maths and later on his life was State councillor and was promoted to the heriditary nobility.
Lenin's mother was Esther Blank, as you correctly said. But her ancestry is a little more complicated. In fact her father, Lenin's grandfather, Alexader Sender of Zhitomir, had a jewish father and a swedish mother. This Alexander Sender was a doctor and became rich, after converting to ortodoxy. He even bought an estate, Kokuchkino, that would turn out to be a valuable asset for Lenin later in his life. He married an Ana Groschoft, Lenin' grandmother, who descended from a family of rich estate owners of german extraction. She was lutheran.
So Lenin was:
25% german
25% kalmuk
25% russian
12,5% jew
12,5% swedish
A true melting-pot, right?
By the way my source does not speak of a chuvach ancestry. Perhaps his paternal garndfather was not russian (chuvach then...) or only of partial russian ancestry?
Source: Hélène Carrère d'Encausse, Lenine - portuguese edition of 1999. the original is by Librairie Arthème Fayard, 1998
Lenin's paternal grandfather, Nicolai, was a russian. He married, while living in Astrakhan, a kalmuk woman. Nicolai was a tailor. Their son, Ilia, studied at the University of Kazan. He was a teacher of maths and later on his life was State councillor and was promoted to the heriditary nobility.
Lenin's mother was Esther Blank, as you correctly said. But her ancestry is a little more complicated. In fact her father, Lenin's grandfather, Alexader Sender of Zhitomir, had a jewish father and a swedish mother. This Alexander Sender was a doctor and became rich, after converting to ortodoxy. He even bought an estate, Kokuchkino, that would turn out to be a valuable asset for Lenin later in his life. He married an Ana Groschoft, Lenin' grandmother, who descended from a family of rich estate owners of german extraction. She was lutheran.
So Lenin was:
25% german
25% kalmuk
25% russian
12,5% jew
12,5% swedish
A true melting-pot, right?
By the way my source does not speak of a chuvach ancestry. Perhaps his paternal garndfather was not russian (chuvach then...) or only of partial russian ancestry?
Source: Hélène Carrère d'Encausse, Lenine - portuguese edition of 1999. the original is by Librairie Arthème Fayard, 1998
-
- Member
- Posts: 1414
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
- Location: Romania
Interesting. I have great respect for Madame d'Encausse's works.
However, the "blood" is irrelevant for Lenin. He was born and raised in a Russian environment, and had no connection to Jewish groups.
As for my definition of ethnicity, I'll stick to the one that is dictated by logic:
A man is part of a certain ethnic group if he considers himself to be part of it, and is accepted as such by the fellow members of this ethnic group. Therefore, if a man claims to be Jew(or Russian, German, Pole, Romanian etc) and is accepted by other Jews(Russians, Germans etc), he must be part of the respective ethnic group.
~Ovidius
However, the "blood" is irrelevant for Lenin. He was born and raised in a Russian environment, and had no connection to Jewish groups.
As for my definition of ethnicity, I'll stick to the one that is dictated by logic:
A man is part of a certain ethnic group if he considers himself to be part of it, and is accepted as such by the fellow members of this ethnic group. Therefore, if a man claims to be Jew(or Russian, German, Pole, Romanian etc) and is accepted by other Jews(Russians, Germans etc), he must be part of the respective ethnic group.
~Ovidius
-
- Member
- Posts: 216
- Joined: 19 Apr 2002 14:38
- Location: Stockholm
Very reasonable and pragmatic definition, Ovidius! Inspite of it being logically imperfect, and maybe even a circular reasoning to be pedantic, (who is the first to be defined as X?) it captures what is socially relevant with ethnicity. Ethnicity is a social phenomena, not a legal constuction (or a biological fact of nature as some claimed back then) and is thus subject to inconcistencies and wageness. Any working definition must recognize and encompass that.
-
- Member
- Posts: 5051
- Joined: 12 Mar 2002 20:06
- Location: Russia
Pumpkin wrote:Here's a revisionist article about jews and the Russian revolution. (Look at the tables at the end for a "list")
http://ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html
Well, I was obviously mistaken about Lenin. This is not the kind of subjects I study, but it's obvious that disproportionate number of leading communist theoreticians and practicians have been jewish.
Well it's nice to see that you haven't got any prejudices and open up for a discussion in a nice manner!Looks like we got another Nazi-loving Jew hater with us
So you don't recognize any apparent connection between jewish groups and communism? You don't think this explains the connection between communism and sionism that the fascist made?
Now for the obvious explanation that unfortunately is necessary in the presence of those who see the Devil everywhere: Most jews are non-political, and there are probably more non-socialists than socialists among the politically active. And of course jews is very heterogenous as an ethnic group and I would not blame any individual for anything he/she isn't personally responsible for. But it is also obvious that the groups that established Soviet Union, and it's world wide socialist network, had a strong representation of jews. There's no denying that. This does not mean that ALL jews are responsible for that or that I agree with any fascist anti-sionism or that I hate jews, as your imbicil defamation claims. But it helps us understand the cause of communism, and hence the cause of anti-communism a.k.a. fascism.
oh for crying out loud we've been over it http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... D=32.topic
-
- Member
- Posts: 4505
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
- Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Really? Let's see some figures, then. Preferably not from the IHR and like-minded sources. I don't trust them, you know.Pumpkin wrote:Here's a revisionist article about jews and the Russian revolution. (Look at the tables at the end for a "list")
http://ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html
Well, I was obviously mistaken about Lenin. This is not the kind of subjects I study, but it's obvious that disproportionate number of leading communist theoreticians and practicians have been jewish.
No prejudices, but observation of "Revisionist" nonsense for over one and a half years plus a reasonable assessment of my new friend's writings. Whether discussion in a nice manner is nevertheless possible depends entirely on you.Looks like we got another Nazi-loving Jew hater with us
Well it's nice to see that you haven't got any prejudices and open up for a discussion in a nice manner!
No, but I'm open to be covinced otherwise by facts and figures.So you don't recognize any apparent connection between jewish groups and communism?
Definitely not. That connection was a propaganda hoax that came in handy for the fascists.You don't think this explains the connection between communism and sionism that the fascist made?
You don't mean folks like yourself who are scared of the all-powerful Jews, by any chance?Now for the obvious explanation that unfortunately is necessary in the presence of those who see the Devil everywhere:
Sounds nice.Most jews are non-political, and there are probably more non-socialists than socialists among the politically active. And of course jews is very heterogenous as an ethnic group and I would not blame any individual for anything he/she isn't personally responsible for.
Here the flicker of reason end. Assuming that Jews were strongly represented or even "overrepresented" in the "world wide socialist network", would that make it a Jewish network or a network that happened to appeal to Jews more than to non-Jews for any reason whatever?But it is also obvious that the groups that established Soviet Union, and it's world wide socialist network, had a strong representation of jews.
If that's your idea of "discussion in a nice manner", at least get the spelling right.There's no denying that. This does not mean that ALL jews are responsible for that or that I agree with any fascist anti-sionism or that I hate jews, as your imbicil defamation claims.
Jewishness helps us understand the cause of Communism? And I thought it was Capitalism. Or is that also Jewish?But it helps us understand the cause of communism
The cause of fascism? To a certain extent, yes. But more one of the main causes for its wide success than a cause for its coming into being, I would say, at least in the case of German fascism, also known as National Socialism., and hence the cause of anti-communism a.k.a. fascism.
-
- Member
- Posts: 338
- Joined: 18 Mar 2002 02:02
- Location: USA
-
- Member
- Posts: 8982
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Jewish Bolsheviks
Mr Muehlenkamp wrote:
(By the way, right-wing Jews are a very good, if biassed, source of information on Jewish Bolsheviks. They never tire of taking their left-wing fellow Jews to task for their past flirtation with the "Red Devil").
Julius martov (Menshevik)
David Axelrod
Lev Borisovich Rosenfeld (Kamenev) Wife Olga bronstein, trotsky’s sister
Semyon (Solomon) Lozovsky, Deputy Foreign Minister
Mikhail Borodin (ne gruzenberg), adviser to Jiang Jieshi
Maxim Litvinov (ne Wallach), Foreign Minister
Yakov Mikhailovich Sverdlov, first Soviet President
Samuel Agursky, co-head of Jewish Commissariat (Yevkom), former Bundist
Lev mekhlis, Stalin’s secretary, former Bundist, NKVD general
Karl Radek
A A Yoffe
David Ryazanov, biographer of marx
Jan Sten, marxist philosopher
Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich, former Bundist
Mikhail Yosifovich Auerbach, lenin’s chief physician
Yakov Savlovich Agranov, senior Chekist
Drs Weisbrod, Moshenberg, and lev Grigorievich Levin, Stalin’s personal doctors in 20s
Genrikh Yagoda, chief Kremlin pharmacist, a toxicologist, Police chief from 1934.
Matvei Berman, created Gulag in 1922
Aron Soltz, Chekist
Naftali Frenkel, Chekist, “nerve” of Gulag, from 1932 in charge of construction of White
Sea-Baltic Canal
Firin, Kogan, Rappoport, Zhuk, overseers of Canal
Boris Berman, brother of Matvei, Chekist
K V Pauker, Cheka chief of operations
Lev Inzhir, chief accountant of Gulag in 30s (the "Jewish Eichmann")
General Yona Yakir
General Dmitri Shmit
M I Gay, chief of a secret police department
A A Slutsky, head of espionage abroad
Shpigelglas, deputy to Slutsky
Moishe Litvakov
Esther frumkin
Peretz Markish, propagandist, advocated deportation of Volga germans and establishment of a Jewish Soviet republic on their lands
V S Avakumov, head of SMERSH during war.
A final note. By immediately insulting "Pumpkin" as a "Nazi-loving Jew-hater" merely because he raised the subject of the collaboration of a large number of Jews with Russian Bolshevism, you reveal that Judeocentrism which so distorts your thought-processes.
Here's a short ( and very incomplete) list of Jewish Communist functionaries I extracted from the book "Stalin's War Against the Jews", by the Jewish right-wing nationalist, Louis Rappoport.Really? Let's see some figures, then. Preferably not from the IHR and like-minded sources. I don't trust them, you know.
(By the way, right-wing Jews are a very good, if biassed, source of information on Jewish Bolsheviks. They never tire of taking their left-wing fellow Jews to task for their past flirtation with the "Red Devil").
Julius martov (Menshevik)
David Axelrod
Lev Borisovich Rosenfeld (Kamenev) Wife Olga bronstein, trotsky’s sister
Semyon (Solomon) Lozovsky, Deputy Foreign Minister
Mikhail Borodin (ne gruzenberg), adviser to Jiang Jieshi
Maxim Litvinov (ne Wallach), Foreign Minister
Yakov Mikhailovich Sverdlov, first Soviet President
Samuel Agursky, co-head of Jewish Commissariat (Yevkom), former Bundist
Lev mekhlis, Stalin’s secretary, former Bundist, NKVD general
Karl Radek
A A Yoffe
David Ryazanov, biographer of marx
Jan Sten, marxist philosopher
Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich, former Bundist
Mikhail Yosifovich Auerbach, lenin’s chief physician
Yakov Savlovich Agranov, senior Chekist
Drs Weisbrod, Moshenberg, and lev Grigorievich Levin, Stalin’s personal doctors in 20s
Genrikh Yagoda, chief Kremlin pharmacist, a toxicologist, Police chief from 1934.
Matvei Berman, created Gulag in 1922
Aron Soltz, Chekist
Naftali Frenkel, Chekist, “nerve” of Gulag, from 1932 in charge of construction of White
Sea-Baltic Canal
Firin, Kogan, Rappoport, Zhuk, overseers of Canal
Boris Berman, brother of Matvei, Chekist
K V Pauker, Cheka chief of operations
Lev Inzhir, chief accountant of Gulag in 30s (the "Jewish Eichmann")
General Yona Yakir
General Dmitri Shmit
M I Gay, chief of a secret police department
A A Slutsky, head of espionage abroad
Shpigelglas, deputy to Slutsky
Moishe Litvakov
Esther frumkin
Peretz Markish, propagandist, advocated deportation of Volga germans and establishment of a Jewish Soviet republic on their lands
V S Avakumov, head of SMERSH during war.
A final note. By immediately insulting "Pumpkin" as a "Nazi-loving Jew-hater" merely because he raised the subject of the collaboration of a large number of Jews with Russian Bolshevism, you reveal that Judeocentrism which so distorts your thought-processes.
-
- Member
- Posts: 4505
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
- Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Interesting. I ask for figures, and I get a list of names. I wonder how long a list of the names of the members of the respective organs of Russian, Ukrainian or Georgian ethnicity would be. How about a breakdown by ethnicity of the respective organs during given periods and a comparison to the composition of the population at the respective time?Mr Muehlenkamp wrote:
Quote:
Really? Let's see some figures, then. Preferably not from the IHR and like-minded sources. I don't trust them, you know.
Here's a short ( and very incomplete) list of Jewish Communist functionaries I extracted from the book "Stalin's War Against the Jews", by the Jewish right-wing nationalist, Louis Rappoport.
(By the way, right-wing Jews are a very good, if biassed, source of information on Jewish Bolsheviks. They never tire of taking their left-wing fellow Jews to task for their past flirtation with the "Red Devil").
Julius martov (Menshevik)
David Axelrod
Lev Borisovich Rosenfeld (Kamenev) Wife Olga bronstein, trotsky’s sister
Semyon (Solomon) Lozovsky, Deputy Foreign Minister
Mikhail Borodin (ne gruzenberg), adviser to Jiang Jieshi
Maxim Litvinov (ne Wallach), Foreign Minister
Yakov Mikhailovich Sverdlov, first Soviet President
Samuel Agursky, co-head of Jewish Commissariat (Yevkom), former Bundist
Lev mekhlis, Stalin’s secretary, former Bundist, NKVD general
Karl Radek
A A Yoffe
David Ryazanov, biographer of marx
Jan Sten, marxist philosopher
Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich, former Bundist
Mikhail Yosifovich Auerbach, lenin’s chief physician
Yakov Savlovich Agranov, senior Chekist
Drs Weisbrod, Moshenberg, and lev Grigorievich Levin, Stalin’s personal doctors in 20s
Genrikh Yagoda, chief Kremlin pharmacist, a toxicologist, Police chief from 1934.
Matvei Berman, created Gulag in 1922
Aron Soltz, Chekist
Naftali Frenkel, Chekist, “nerve” of Gulag, from 1932 in charge of construction of White
Sea-Baltic Canal
Firin, Kogan, Rappoport, Zhuk, overseers of Canal
Boris Berman, brother of Matvei, Chekist
K V Pauker, Cheka chief of operations
Lev Inzhir, chief accountant of Gulag in 30s (the "Jewish Eichmann")
General Yona Yakir
General Dmitri Shmit
M I Gay, chief of a secret police department
A A Slutsky, head of espionage abroad
Shpigelglas, deputy to Slutsky
Moishe Litvakov
Esther frumkin
Peretz Markish, propagandist, advocated deportation of Volga germans and establishment of a Jewish Soviet republic on their lands
V S Avakumov, head of SMERSH during war.
By constantly rambling about my “Judeocentrism”, Michael Mills reveals the judeophobic paranoia that distorts his own thought process, I would say. What Pumpkin tries to do is to portray communism as a “Jewish” phenomenon:A final note. By immediately insulting "Pumpkin" as a "Nazi-loving Jew-hater" merely because he raised the subject of the collaboration of a large number of Jews with Russian Bolshevism, you reveal that Judeocentrism which so distorts your thought-processes.
One thing is whether there was a disproportionately large number of Jews in a given organization, which I don’t see having been demonstrated yet. Another is whether this makes such organization a “Jewish” organization rather than just an organization where there happen to be many Jews.Nope! They [Lenin and Beria] were both of jewish origin. As was Karl Marx and many other communists (and coincidently, Stalins wife). A majority of the ministers of Lenin's government were of jewish origin. And it wasn't hard for the nazis to point out some jewish american capitalists who sponsored the early Soviet. This fact explains why anti-communism became anti-sionism in nazi propaganda. Ignoring this will prevent you from understanding the rise of nazism.