6 million

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Birgitte Heuschkel
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#61

Post by Birgitte Heuschkel » 03 May 2002, 10:06

Go figure ...
That's sad irony indeed.

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Scott Smith
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#62

Post by Scott Smith » 04 May 2002, 11:41

Birgitte Heuschkel wrote:
Roberto wrote:Go figure ...
That's sad irony indeed.
Yes, Hitler didn't invent anti-Semitism. The Tsars in those days were viewed the way Hitler is today. But that doesn't mean that as a group the Jews were especially working for a German victory in World War I either. Hitler was able to channel anti-Semitism and all of the anger of the veterans toward his nationalistic and revolutionary purposes.
:)


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Roberto
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#63

Post by Roberto » 04 May 2002, 18:36

But that doesn't mean that as a group the Jews were especially working for a German victory in World War I either.
Nobody said they did, even though German Jews stood out for their loyalty and dedication to the German empire - ca. 100,000 out of a community of about half a million at the time went to the front, and 12,000 lost their lives on the battlefield.

Nevertheless, the idea that someone might even suspect that Jews "as a group" were sympathetic to the German cause in World War I seems to worry the Reverend a lot.

Peter Müller
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German bureacracy

#64

Post by Peter Müller » 15 May 2002, 15:32

Everybody heard for sure already about the german bureacracy, or?

Knowing that the winter equipment was not given out in Stalingrad, before not all papers were right, why not take the official death list which has now been given public in russia?

Ovidius
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#65

Post by Ovidius » 15 May 2002, 16:58

Roberto wrote:What are they supposed to have told, Ovidius?

I inherited the regimental history of the German 11th Hussar Regiment in World War I, where my maternal grandfather served as a trumpeter, first in France in 1914, then on the Eastern Front until 1917, then on the Western Front in 1918. The only passages that mention Jews speak of the deadly fear these people had of the Russian Cossacks, who would hang a couple of Jews in a given village if they felt like doing so, and of the relief and even joy the Jews showed whenever German troops marched into their place. Go figure ...
"What". Take a guess: savagery of Russian troops, leading to the idea that most Russians were barbarians...

The hatred and fear the Jews had for Tsarist troops and for the Tsarist regime...

Then, in 1920, the newspapers told about various Soviet leaders, who were obviously Jewish...

The connection had been made: Jews + hatred and fear of the Tsarists + people of savages + revolution/coup + erase of the Tsarists + domination by Jews like Trotsky and others = people of barbarians led by a Jewish-Bolshevik ruling class. How does it sound? :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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Roberto
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#66

Post by Roberto » 15 May 2002, 18:49

Ovidius wrote:
Roberto wrote:What are they supposed to have told, Ovidius?

I inherited the regimental history of the German 11th Hussar Regiment in World War I, where my maternal grandfather served as a trumpeter, first in France in 1914, then on the Eastern Front until 1917, then on the Western Front in 1918. The only passages that mention Jews speak of the deadly fear these people had of the Russian Cossacks, who would hang a couple of Jews in a given village if they felt like doing so, and of the relief and even joy the Jews showed whenever German troops marched into their place. Go figure ...
"What". Take a guess: savagery of Russian troops, leading to the idea that most Russians were barbarians...

The hatred and fear the Jews had for Tsarist troops and for the Tsarist regime...

Then, in 1920, the newspapers told about various Soviet leaders, who were obviously Jewish...

The connection had been made: Jews + hatred and fear of the Tsarists + people of savages + revolution/coup + erase of the Tsarists + domination by Jews like Trotsky and others = people of barbarians led by a Jewish-Bolshevik ruling class. How does it sound? :mrgreen:

~Ovidius
Like someone using what he would like to be indications in order to make himself believe what he would badly like to believe. :aliengray

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Roberto
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Re: German bureacracy

#67

Post by Roberto » 15 May 2002, 18:50

Peter Müller wrote:Everybody heard for sure already about the german bureacracy, or?

Knowing that the winter equipment was not given out in Stalingrad, before not all papers were right, why not take the official death list which has now been given public in russia?
What "official list" is that supposed to be? A quote with a source reference would be appreciated.

Angelo V
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Hearsay+Magic Lists+Thoughtcrime+Wishful Thinking....

#68

Post by Angelo V » 02 Jun 2002, 05:45

I'm sorry but I've been busy getting my puter back in shape, so I could not answer a number of posts with a clear reference to mine. I'll try to do that as soon as I can.

There's a thing though I appreciated a lot.

Progresses have been made in keeping the mail clean, I mean almost as polite as you'd expect from a 50's candidate to his Junior Prom. :D
We only miss moms and dads Fonzie style and we might as well start singing Happy Days Are Here Again. :)

What makes me wonder is how can it be that the old math's rule of the thumb, that is 2+2 must be 4 doesn't work that well any more.

My opinion is that we're getting algebraic and substituting letters for numbers makes it all a little funnier somehow.

Ok, should we say that "Hearsay" + "Magic Lists" + "Perennial Judeophobia" give the usual equation so dear to our illustrious and history-loving contributors, i.e. the Jew is at the root of every catastrophy that befell this poor old rotten world since the appearance of Adam and Eve.

This is one of those times I wish I were a Jew.

By the way, you're right Domnul Ovidius, yeah, you got it right, between old Joe Vissarionovich and Adolf, I would choose the former as the lesser evil for the simple reason I don't believe in Superman theories, I don't like being racially discriminated (if it happens perchance, I might close an eye, but if it's coded in an official party line, I'd greet it with a spit in the eye to the one who wrote that shit, sorry, I meant that nonsense), I don't accept being earmarked for death because of an illness, whatever it maybe, I don't like being sent off to war to try accomplishing the crazy and criminal theories of a bunch of patented assassins whose lust and greed for absolute and psychotic power was not equalled up to this day by not just 1 of the many mad dictators this world has known, but not even by summing up them all.
Yes, Stalin was surely a butcher and a master at that, but he was not a paranoid, though lucid and methodic as Hitler was, and rather than making a crusade to slaughter a given race, or the sick and disabled, or even planning to invade and occupy the rest of Europe, he handled a number of serious problems arising from a political and economic situation
which was marked by the abrupt change from the century old serfdom of most of the Slavic people making up the Great Mother Russia (and sorroundings) to a pre-industrialized and neo-modern type of society basing on Marx' socialistic theories. That he acted criminally it's so well known that it is only funny we should convene on that, but again he acted that way:
1. Against a Church that had been the flag bearer of the pluto-aristocratic society which ruled over the above mentioned serfdom. I admit the ways he chose to get rid of that problem were definitely savage and criminal but it would be silly to deny that such a problem existed.
On the other side, and even after the Nuremberg Laws, most of the Jews in Germany, would simply not believe their eyes when faced with the progressive depauperation of rights and exclusion from even the most basic kind of activities thus jeopardizing not only their "theoretical" freedom but the actual possibility to keep on living. That goes to show that the great majority of the Jews were ready to be loyal citizens even in a nazified Germany if only the "Great Gawd Adolf" would give them a chance. Hardly in history did the Jew popular component of a state prove loyal to their residential country as the German Jewish Community since its very early days and up to the crazy, criminal experience of the National Socialist takeover. World War I was a benchmark that not even the most rabid Nazi buff could stain by saying they didn't do their duty just as well as the rest of the German people. If, and providing it can be proved that a number of white-collar wheels did plot against the Kaiser to get Germany on its death bed, thus evoking the long reiterated story of the "stab in the back", well, I still have to find a sentient being able to tell me that a whole population must be "ausrotten" (or liquidated) because of the treachery of a handful of possibly well paid traitors.
2. We all know that the great famine that killed some millions (I think about 6 millions) of Ukrainians was actually enforced by the procedures established by Stalin and his gang of killers to put off the well known Ukrainian patriotism which, according to their long and suffered history, never mated smilingly at the idea of being a colony of Russia, be it Czarist or Soviet. No need to tell I consider such a "policy" no less criminal than that used by Hitler against the Poles, the Russians and the rest of the inhabitants of his kingdom-to-be, but even in this case there's a difference: the Ukrainians were already a part of the Great Mother Russia since 1911 even though Russian overlapping on Ukrainian independent "raison d'etre" can be found as early as soon after the founding of the Kievan Rus. In other words, the Ukrainians would have been better off if they showed they were "willing" to accept the new course of the Soviets (even though this is no excuse for what happened later) and just let the new rulers get their share just as the old ones used to do (the Czarist camarilla...). When Stalin realized that the collectivization of the land would be hard to impose in that area, he decided the time had come to give that "border" land a lesson and in so doing he was sure to get two rabbits with one shot: he would neutralize the Ukrainianization process that was well on his way since the last years of the Romanoff's, start a brand new Russification policy in the region and give his collectivization plan a new start. (You can find a more detailed but substantially similar line of thought at http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1983/078320.shtml
Now, if you ask me what's that make such a crime different from those connected to the Hitlerism phylosophy, I'll tell you that Stalin didn't wage a war to conquer and submit the Ukraine. He just found it there and he only had to make up his mind on how to solve their resistance and normalize the political situation there. I know it's not much and yet there's a big difference: if you plan to invade a country and to enslave its people you are commiting 2 crimes in one. If you try to enslave a country that's already within your boundaries (whether it should or should not be there it's another question, of course) you're committing just 1 crime. Sounds a bit strange huh ? Not to me, though! To put it in another way, Hitler could have decided that a given Laender or region, say East Prussia, should have been made a sort of hilots colony where to take manpower to give free of charge to other Laenders which might be in need of, well, if he acted like Stalin did, he'd be just as criminal as he was, but if he did that by first invading an up-to-then independent country (without a plausible reason of course), then 1+1 must be 2.
There are other points, of course, I could talk about, but I guess these 2 coupled with what I already said in other sections of the forum, should be sufficient to give my ideas about the whole question.
I could go ahead and tell you that if you were anti-Communist just as I am, you'd feel much freer to open up your eyes and conscience to criticize your Hitler-idol without getting too much strain on your synapses. :) That's what happens with me when I talk about Stalin (and he is all but my idol :wink: .
One thing I appreciate of you, though, is that you have the guts it takes to say National Socialism and its Fuehrer are good enough for you. That is much more honest, incomparably more honest than hiding behind vicious, pretextuous, fumigated unreal balooneys as many others do.

Best regards.

Angelo

(No matter the "V", it's still me).

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BillHermann
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Re: 6 million

#69

Post by BillHermann » 12 Feb 2012, 02:21

I alway question the debate over 6 million as the majority of time it is discussed to some how discredit the event or make the crime less horrific the simple fact thet the actual number will never be know and that should be is enough.

For one minute take the Hebrew or Jew out of the equation and instead add a hypothetcal unknown number of 4 to 8 millions of Americans, Germans or Norwegians dead .... The complete total would hypothetically be never known. Would we be questioning those numbers if that was the tragedy. No we would be fine with the estimate and not question it. Look at many other historical genocides do we analyze, debate and hold the numbers to such account? No. What needs to be asked is not why 6 million as the number but why is this question constantly being asked over and over again.

For just one moment regardless of the race and death look at th impact on one single family from the day they were thrown out of thier home with everything taken away including their dignity. That In itself is a crime and most here would not tolerate their government or foreign government doing this to you. Then multiply that one family by the hundreds of thousands. The concept from the start is cruel and disgusting so the symbolic estimation of 6 million says more about the event then just the deaths. If it is not clear that the 6 million symbolic deaths are not the only thing worth seeing in this then the gravity of the event has not been understood.

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