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Caldric
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#61

Post by Caldric » 21 Mar 2002, 09:45

Americans, unfortunately, are a silly people, easily provoked. They could not see the WTC attack coming and their leaders are telling them what they want to hear in vacuous Churchillian poetics.
No you are wrong, most people expected sooner or later we would get hit by radical organizations in the world. I would not call the killing in New York an easy provocation. Although you would like to preach that, also think we deserved it to I am sure.
don't see how any proud American cannot look in the mirror once in awhile. Not in disgust and self-pity like some Germans today over the past but right now, about the future that we can change today.
No shame here I assure you. I am sure you could enlighten us all on your positive attitude towards all things American or the world for that matter. You should look in the mirror and see shame, your constant denial of historical fact is shameful. Your constant bitching about idiocy over and over is ridicules, you claim to be a skeptic, well I say you are negative, or just simply love to argue over issues constantly and harp the same bullshit. Millions in Iraq? That is bunk, thousands of troops yes, some civilians in war, I do not doubt it. Iraq brings it upon its self, or I should say Saddam, but then he is against the US so you would instantly jump on the anti-US band-wagon and yell conspiracy at the highest level. And all Americans are dumbasses, well your one, guess that explains it. Your constant insane comments are asinine, Vietnam, yes we did bomb the hell out of them, no one denies that. Are you the self-proclaimed conscience of the United States? You seem to have taken up the banner of Holocaust denial so why not that too. You hide behind the so-called skeptical attitude, when your very post deny it happened.

American education system, that is the first thing people seem to yell around here, well guess what, unless you were educated in Germany or UK or somewhere else you got the same one. Welcome to the dumbass section, take a seat.
If one cannot learn to develop a skeptical attitude he will simply be misled. But some prefer their blissful ignorance, warm beer and Must-See TV. For them the gadfly is the devil.
There is a fine line between being skeptical and just down right negative, since a skeptic is one who Habitually is suspect of everything, I suppose it could be like a disorder, not even truth will matter after a period time. Everyone is skeptical to some degree, but you take it to a whole new level.[/quote]

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Re: American the Great

#62

Post by Dan » 21 Mar 2002, 14:04

Oh and we were good, and they were bad.
Now I've heard everything


tonyh
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Americans good...........

#63

Post by tonyh » 21 Mar 2002, 14:37

>>>Oh and we were good, and they were bad. <<<

Caldric are you really that thick?

The land you live on now, its original inhabitants were mostly wiped out
Millions of them on the entire Continent.

Innocent Japanese and German civilians bombed to pieces, not to mention other European colateral damage during WWII.

Thousands of Koreans

Millions of Vietnamese, some of which are still suffering the effects of agent orange.

Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, then MILLIONS of them after the war, through inhuman sanctions.

...and lately 3,767 innocent civilian deaths in eight and a half weeks in Afganistan.


You are in need of a servere reading marathon to increase your knowlege.
You can start with Chomsky........


Tony

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Scott Smith
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AXIS of EVIL! WHO YA' GONNA CALL?

#64

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Mar 2002, 16:04

(Hint: Rhymes with Gush.)
Caldric wrote:No you are wrong, most people expected sooner or later we would get hit by radical organizations in the world. I would not call the killing in New York an easy provocation. Although you would like to preach that, also think we deserved it to I am sure.
The establishment has been in an increasing panic about "terrorism" ever since 1972, without betraying any interest in the source of anti-American hatred except maudlin notions of "Evil Axes"and so on. I basically dumped my support for Reagan when he sent our troops to Beirut in 1983. You see, we have the right to make the world our financial market. This is what we call Freedom.
No shame here I assure you. I am sure you could enlighten us all on your positive attitude towards all things American or the world for that matter. You should look in the mirror and see shame, your constant denial of historical fact is shameful.
Yawn. You don't seem to be making any point. I post an American flag in disgust at the shameless jingoism we have witnessed since 9-11 and you act like I put a match to the colors. You are like a schoolboy who, having been informed that his shoelaces are untied, comes out swinging. And then, just to deny his own oversight, continues to walk around all day long with shoelaces dragging.
:roll: :roll:
Millions in Iraq? That is bunk, thousands of troops yes, some civilians in war, I do not doubt it.
Even U.S. leaders say that is how many, although it is downplayed. If it wasn't on Dennis Miller Live then I guess it didn't happen, right? I'm not talking about the Gulf War, genius, but the UN figures given several years ago by Ramsay Clark. Madeleine Albright said the human cost was "worth it." Back then it was about a million, half of them children, who have perished as a direct result of the blockade since the Gulf War--a war which Bush the First could not complete properly because he needed an ongoing excuse to keep America committed in the region. I call that Globaloney. Call me cynical.
:blah:
Iraq brings it upon its self, or I should say Saddam, but then he is against the US so you would instantly jump on the anti-US band-wagon and yell conspiracy at the highest level.
It is a common thread in terror warfare, oops I mean economic warfare, which includes terror-bombing and blockade, that elitists think that the people can and will overthrow some comic-opera bozo that the U.S. government doesn't like merely by squeezing the people into the Stone Age.

These kitchen-cabinet intellectual giants imagine that just because Americans wet their pants when they get a flat-tire and their cell-phone quits working that such will be "the shot heard 'round the world." A Requiem for Saddam of sorts. As-if the Iraqi people don't know who is squeezing them this time. We should be asking ourselves why anti-American rhetoric is so popular in the world today and if it has anything to do with our globalization "manifest destiny."
You seem to have taken up the banner of Holocaust denial so why not that too. You hide behind the so-called skeptical attitude, when your very post deny it happened.
Hiding behind the "you're a Denier" rubric, Caldric? Can you justify that statement? How, exactly, and no help from Roberto allowed--because I need your OWN brainpower on this one--am I a Holocaust Denier? Lock your thumbs together in contemplation and stew about it for as long as it takes and then compose for me specifics as to why you think this is the case. Perhaps a separate thread if you can come up with anything that doesn't rhyme with diesel or Wiesel.
American education system, that is the first thing people seem to yell around here, well guess what, unless you were educated in Germany or UK or somewhere else you got the same one. Welcome to the dumbass section, take a seat.
Yes, and with justification. But don't fret. You, too, can overcome it! Just like Teddy Roosevelt, the asthmatic intellectual, you CAN overcome this handicap by lifting cerebral weights. Pretty soon you'll be able to fell whole trees like Bully President, a veritable steam-engine in trousers.

The biggest educational handicap to overcome is simply thinking that Americans know everything. They just don't. How could any but the truly Evil not positively love us cheery bubblegum-chewing bullys bucking about in the Chinashop?

See, Americans tend to be taught WHAT to think but not HOW to think. But that can be overcome, as I said. We are not naturally dumbasses. We simply have been the big cheese for so long that that we haven't had to think outside of the cathode-ray-tube box, which is something that we as a people have been traditionally GOOD at. Good old Yankee ingenuity and know-how and stuff.

++If one cannot learn to develop a skeptical attitude he will simply be misled. But some prefer their blissful ignorance, warm beer and Must-See TV. For them the gadfly is the devil.++

<<There is a fine line between being skeptical and just down right negative, since a skeptic is one who Habitually is suspect of everything, I suppose it could be like a disorder, not even truth will matter after a period time. Everyone is skeptical to some degree, but you take it to a whole new level.>>
More than a skeptic I am also a cynic. You got me there. But that's not quite what we are talking about here. There is also a difference between cold skepticism and conspiracy-theory. A skeptic does not "suspect everything," he merely seeks to apply reason and the scientific method instead of faith and dogma to knowledge, especially received-wisdom and consensus-History.

I fully admit that I am just as opinionated as the next guy, but I am capable of understanding the limitations of knowledge generally, and in what I personally don't know, which is useful in helping me try to understand the other-guy's point-of-view. Americans, if we are to judge them by the politicians they keep, haven't quite learned how to do that. And yet they want to rule the world, one Starbucks franchise at a time.

Dying with anticipation to find out how I am a Holocaust Denier...

Best Regards,
Scott

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#65

Post by Thorfinn » 21 Mar 2002, 16:34

American education system, that is the first thing people seem to yell around here, well guess what, unless you were educated in Germany or UK or somewhere else you got the same one. Welcome to the dumbass section, take a seat.
I was educated in Germany, and America. The American education system is not as bad as many Americans make it out to be. There are many idiots that make the US schools look bad, but there are also many intelligent people that are the result of the American system. I had schooling in the USA, and I think that the American educational system is among the best in the world. It is at least equal with Germany, but it is just different. There is no Harvard, or Yale outside of America. The biggest problem with all schools, that I have seen, is that they are too left.

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Roberto
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#66

Post by Roberto » 21 Mar 2002, 19:45

Thorfinn wrote:
American education system, that is the first thing people seem to yell around here, well guess what, unless you were educated in Germany or UK or somewhere else you got the same one. Welcome to the dumbass section, take a seat.
I was educated in Germany, and America. The American education system is not as bad as many Americans make it out to be. There are many idiots that make the US schools look bad, but there are also many intelligent people that are the result of the American system. I had schooling in the USA, and I think that the American educational system is among the best in the world. It is at least equal with Germany, but it is just different. There is no Harvard, or Yale outside of America. The biggest problem with all schools, that I have seen, is that they are too left.
I wonder if any institution could conceivably be "too right" in the perspective of our True Believer.

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Caldric

#67

Post by Ovidius » 22 Mar 2002, 00:26

Oh and we were good, and they were bad.
Isn't it so !? :evil: :evil: :evil:

Is Caldric somehow the re-incarnation of Winston Churchill? (You know, the funny guy in Britain, with his mind always floating on whisky vapors, who babbled about the Christian civilization) :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

~Ovidius

Caldric
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#68

Post by Caldric » 22 Mar 2002, 03:09

Denier...
That was a bit out there I agree, my humble apology.

Caldric
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Re: Americans good...........

#69

Post by Caldric » 22 Mar 2002, 04:57

tonyh wrote:>>>Oh and we were good, and they were bad. <<<

Caldric are you really that thick?

The land you live on now, its original inhabitants were mostly wiped out
Millions of them on the entire Continent.

Innocent Japanese and German civilians bombed to pieces, not to mention other European colateral damage during WWII.

Thousands of Koreans

Millions of Vietnamese, some of which are still suffering the effects of agent orange.

Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, then MILLIONS of them after the war, through inhuman sanctions.

...and lately 3,767 innocent civilian deaths in eight and a half weeks in Afganistan.


You are in need of a servere reading marathon to increase your knowlege.
You can start with Chomsky........


Tony
Japanese were hardly innocent, I do not remember these innocent Japanese yelling for the innocent Chinese and other Asians while their army was slaughtering wholesale, or carrying out experiments. Nor do I remember the innocent Germans yelling for the innocent people being burned by the thousands as ash fell down on their homes. Both got what they asked for, War, and it was brought to them, innocent or not their form of government brought it to them not the US and allies.

The Indians were mostly wiped out by European Powers, there were not many around by the time the US was born. But I give you some where destroyed.

UN Sanctions I will remind you in Iraq. Afghanistan is a place where war is going on, perhaps you should look the word up. To bad the world is not full of Peace, then there would be no one dying from it, but it is not.

Korea, was a war, and people die in wars again look the word up.

I will allow you to read the likes of Chompsky, he is what you are looking for, someone to piss in the wind. I could write the same thing with different villain. I see he failed to mention the hundreds killed by Middle Eastern terrorist in the last few decades, how un-biased of him.

If you are talking about reading revisionist and left wing radical news and articles, nah I will pass, you keep reading though and believing everything they tell you.

Caldric
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#70

Post by Caldric » 22 Mar 2002, 05:07

Lets see the good and the bad equation.

Germany,
Military shoots murders and rapes kills anything they do not agree with... Here is a pictural history for you folks, since reading does not seem to hold much usefullness for some, or they doubt and are skeptics.

Lets see can you tell me if this is good or bad?

Image



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tonyh
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re

#71

Post by tonyh » 22 Mar 2002, 14:05

>> Japanese were hardly innocent<<

What are talking about you moron? What the fuck do you know about the Japanese civilian perspective of war? Fuck all. I'd wager. Have you even read anything about it? How can you say that the average Japanese civilian working in Tokyo or Hiroshima wasn't as innocent as someone working in a Detroit car factory or a food-processing plan in Berkshire? What say did the average Jap have concerning military affairs overseas? None is the answer you're looking for. The average Japanese civilian was fed a tissue of propaganda concerning the Asian wars by their government, just like Americans.

>> I do not remember these innocent Japanese yelling for the innocent Chinese and other Asians while their army was slaughtering wholesale, . Nor do I remember the innocent Germans yelling for the innocent people being burned by the thousands as ash fell down on their homes <<

Again what are you talking about? How can you remember something when you werent even there. Or are you 80 yrs old. At least that would explain the senility of your posts. How do you know that there were protests against Army actions in China or Asia? How do you know what the average Japanese person knew about their country's wars? Many Japanese people only heard their Emperor for the first time in 1945. There was no TV in the 30's and 40's, no independent news programs, no ability for political opposition. How are the Japanese civilian population supposed to really know what was going on. Stop and think, or perhaps learn to think. The same goes for your incredibly simplistic and unknowledgeable comment about wartime German civilian population. Your idiotic post displays a staggering ignorance about civilian affairs during WWII.

>> Both got what they asked for, War, and it was brought to them, innocent or not their form of government brought it to them not the US and allies<<

Have you ever talked to a Japanese or German person who was alive during the war, I seriously doubt it. It would certainly be an eye opener for you. And one you are in severe need of, because your historical perspective is wanting, to say the least. Very few Japs or Germans wanted war in the 30's you twit. When it came what could they do about it? They wanted little more than to get up and go to work in the morning, to take care of their families.

>> The Indians were mostly wiped out by European Powers, there were not many around by the time the US was born. But I give you some where destroyed. <<

Your country was made up of European powers, or perhaps you are as ignorant of your own history as you are of others countries? The US was formed from these same powers.

>> UN Sanctions I will remind you in Iraq. Afghanistan is a place where war is going on, perhaps you should look the word up. To bad the world is not full of Peace, then there would be no one dying from it, but it is not<<

Did I say that the sanctions were not imposed on Iraq? Your convincing me that you cannot read very well. The Sanctions on the civilian population constitutes one of the worse crimes of the 20th Century. The US starts yet another Century with a arm length list of attrocities.

>> Afghanistan is a place where war is going on....<<

I'm surprised you even know that. The US war in Afghanistan was waged with such contempt for civilian life that at least 3,767 civilians died under their ill placed bombs. That is not war, that's indiscriminate bombing, not really caring what they hit. The US enemy was supposed to be against Al Queda and the Taliban, not Afghan civilian areas. On October 22nd and 23rd US warplanes strafed civilians in the farming village of Chowkar-Karez. This is not war against the Taliban. B-52's, against the UN's urging, dropped cluster bombs on heavily populated areas of Afghanistan. These bomblets will lie in the ground for many years after the Taliban are a memory, killing yet more innocent Afghans. This is not war against the Taliban. The fact is that the US put an extremely low value on Afghan lives. That's your good nation for you.


The rest of your post is rubbish and not worth a reply. You can't even spell Noam Chomsky's name correctly, so it shows you nothing about him or what he writes.

For further reading, which you really need to do, you can check out Mark Herold or Bob Fisk. They're very easy to find.

As for your use of "revisionist and left wing radical news and articles", it simply displays your extreme ignorance and stupidity. It's no wonder that nobody on this board takes you even remotely seriously.

Tony
Last edited by tonyh on 22 Mar 2002, 16:08, edited 1 time in total.

POW
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#72

Post by POW » 22 Mar 2002, 14:54

Regarding the translation done by Medorjurgen from a feature about prisoners of war in World War II on the website of the German Historical Museum, Berlin:
The German command did not accord the protection of international laws of war to the 400,000 Polish soldiers.... The [polish]prisoners could be declared civilians and used as forced laborers in the German industry and agriculture.
This sounds to me if the German command did not recognize international law to to be able to use the Polish prisoners of war as laborer. I like to know why should they do that? The Convention of Geneve says that it is allowed to use a prisoner of war as laborer. So there is no need for the German command to recognize officially international laws in that case.

and:
Thanks to food packages of the American and the International Red Cross the German prisoners of war in prison camps in Western Europe and North America had sufficient food and their bare necessities covered otherwise.
The trick is to leave some out: What about North Africa?

and:
...pictures of satisfied Wehrmacht soldiers did not nearly reflect the conditions in the Siberian prison camps, in which until 1944 only one in every ten prisoners survived
For what reason this article mentions Siberian camps? In Siberia were not the most prisoners nor the highest death percantage.

and:
After forced labor, hunger and disease about two million prisoners from the Soviet Union returned to Germany, the last of them in January 1956.
How many of that two million prisoners died when they were back in Germany? Not to disregard the prisoners who returned badly disabled.

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Roberto
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#73

Post by Roberto » 22 Mar 2002, 15:16

POW,

Regarding prisoners of war other than the Soviets in German captivity,
I know little more than what I found on the website of the German Historical Museum, which is the source of my translation:

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/wk2/kriegsv ... index.html

I suggest you contact this entity for more information. If I should run across some in the meantime, I will let you know.

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Roberto
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#74

Post by Roberto » 22 Mar 2002, 19:14

medorjurgen wrote:POW,

Regarding prisoners of war other than the Soviets in German captivity,
I know little more than what I found on the website of the German Historical Museum, which is the source of my translation:

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/wk2/kriegsv ... index.html

I suggest you contact this entity for more information. If I should run across some in the meantime, I will let you know.
Regarding German prisoners of war, the following books may be of interest:

Image

Image

POW
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#75

Post by POW » 22 Mar 2002, 19:39

Medorjurgen,
thank you for recommend the books to me. I'm intimate with both books and regarding that topic to following also:
http://home.arcor.de/kr/kriegsgefangene/library.html[/url]

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