Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

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talbright
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#136

Post by talbright » 23 Jan 2015, 16:44

Great work Seaburn on a potential bombshell against Sepp Dietrich in this case, with all due respect to your aforementioned caveats on Rumpf. Hopefully further evidence will come to light to either verify or refute this charge.

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Harro
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#137

Post by Harro » 23 Jan 2015, 17:44

I think we must consider the fact that the interrogation team was actively searching for evidence against those they held in custody and there are examples of suspects who were promised a mild sentence in return for incriminating statements about the others (see the findings of the Simpson Committee). Rumpfs mention of Dietrich could be such a case.


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seaburn
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#138

Post by seaburn » 23 Jan 2015, 17:48

Harro wrote:I Rumpfs mention of Dietrich could be such a case.

It is a possibility of course - and his assertion is some what 'lack lustre' it has to be said - Dietrich 'may have been there' etc. It would be great if we could find out for sure...

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#139

Post by eindhoven » 26 Jan 2015, 06:22

Harro wrote:I'd say he made specific mention because Montag was a company commander and not just one of the lower ranks. Note that Meyer mentions most if not all officers who were KIA during the Charkow battles. The victims of mines are usually recognized by the type of wounds they suffered. For example, SS-Untersturmführer Bernd Schütte (platoonleader in 1./AA LAH) is listed in the Verlustliste as wounded with "Prellungen d. Knie" and when I asked one of his men about this, Karl replied:
„Dann sind wir an zwei Schwimmwagen vorbei gefahren. Das eine war Bernd Schütte, der war bei uns im Halbzug und führte jetzt ein Zug im 1. Kompanie. Als wir da vorbei gefahren sind, sagte der Schütte: Ich hab Glück gehabt. Die sind ja auf Minen gefahren.“
"Then we drove past two Schwimmwagen. One was Bernd Schütte, who was with us in the half-platoon and now led a platoon in the 1st Company. When we drove past there, Schütte said: "I've been lucky". They had driven on mines."
The vehicles in this case were two Schwimmwagen but it shows how normal such incidents were.
I am quite certain the two Schwimmwagen mentioned striking mines are these photographed from AA LAH with Meyers Kfz. 21 s. gl. Pkw staff car following. Meyer is standing up left as viewed in the Kfz.21 following the lead Schwimmer.

From Waffen SS Im Bild - Herbert Walther, for discussion only
AA LAH leads the counterattack on Charkow - Herbert Walther Waffen-SS Im Bild.jpg

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Harro
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#140

Post by Harro » 26 Jan 2015, 08:03

Hard to tell because the AA LAH lost quite a lot of vehicles to mines in those days (as well as to Pak-guns, and the difference is hard to tell from the photo) but if it is then the date is February 21, 1943, and the location is near Kegitschewka. The mines which wounded Schütte also killed SS-Sturmmann Josef Sieber (Mattersburg, 1. Mai 1919). SS-Untersturmführer Bernhard "Bernd" Schütte (Braunschweig, 4. Juni 1921 / SS-Nr. 378 570) had been in command of one of the half-platoons in the IV.(schw.)Zug (SS-Hscha. Robert Frank) of 2./AA LAH since Metz (as an SS-Uscha.) and had been in command of the IV.(schw.) Zug of 1./AA LAH during the Charkow battles. He is MIA since 1945 (as SS-Ostuf. and Chef Aufkl.Zug, 8. SS-Kavallerie-Division).

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#141

Post by seaburn » 05 Jan 2016, 15:21

"During the fighting back to the west we got to know a new phase of this inhuman war. It was impossible to distinguish Soviet soldiers from harmless civilians. For the first time soldiers were ambushed in towns and in the countryside without being able to identify enemy units. We became nervous. The locals did not dare to betray the concealed Red Army solders. The Soviet’s enthusiasm and the attitude of the population demanded special watchfulness on our part. My old comrade, Fritz Montag, who has been given command of the acting headquarters company, drove into a minefield and lost both legs above the knee. He was brought to me fully conscious in a motorcycle sidecar……The fighting had taken on a treacherous character.” (Kurt Meyer ‘Grenadiers’ pages 172, 173)

For those of you already familiar with this thread, you will know that I have long suspected that the fatal wounding of Fritz Montag was the catalyst for what happened in Jefremowka on February 17th 1943, both incidents having occurred on the same day.
KM leaves his reader in no doubt that he felt the loss of each and every one of his comrades keenly. His recording of Montag’s death above is similar to other accounts in the book and it betrays no indication of how close their relationship actually way. It was only on re-reading some passages from Meyer’s biography ‘Meeting of Generals’ that I now appreciate that Montag was more than just a comrade, he was a long standing personal friend and someone whom KM owed his career in the SS to.

The first excerpt covers the period when Meyer was in the police force in Schwerin in 1930. He and his colleagues were sent on duty to political rallies to observe and keep the peace. It was at one of these that Montag was speaking:

“Many of the platform speakers at these rallies were superb orators. Meyer and Richter were impressed by Fritz Montag, who owned a small shop in Dömitz but often came to Schwerin to speak. Still a young man, he had served on the front lines during the war and commanded great respect from all his listeners. Mayer and Richter visited him frequently at home to discuss politics and listen to his storehouse of military experiences. His upright character and courteous consideration made a lasting impression on them both’… (Page 102)

Three years later, their friendship is still firm:

“ His friend from Dömitz, Fritz Montag, had been the one responsible for Kurt and the other three party loyalists at the Police School joining the expanding SS. Montag had allied himself with the Nazis and had been appointed local SS recruiting officer. To fill its ranks, he turned to the best men in the regional SA detachments and lured them into Himmler’s new elite. …. Montag already knew them as friends and loyal supporters of the new German Order. … Montag encouraged Kurt to approach other friends and colleagues to join. …” (Pages 116/7)

This last extract took place in France in 1942. Tragically Montag’s children had died and KM tries to ease his friend’s pain at their loss:

“Tragedy struck a member of the Battalion. Hauptsturmführer Montag had gone home on leave to Schwerin and taken his three children for a Sunday morning walk near the lake. Without thinking, he left them unattended for a few minutes. His youngest, a girl, ventured out on the thin ice and fell through. The other two tried to save her and all three drowned. When Kate and Ursula arrived (Meyer’s wife and 6 year old daughter) Kurt told them about Montag’s loss, adding, ‘I know something that will make him smile again in you agree’. He proposed ‘lending’ Ursula to the soldier as a temporary daughter. Kate and Ursula agreed. When the introductions were made the Hauptsturmführer eyes filled with tears. He took Ursula in his arms. Discreetly, Kurt and Kate withdrew. Montag poured himself a drink – plus a small one for Ursula – then sat down to tell stories. Several hours - and many drinks – later Kurt and Kate returned to find both the surrogate parent and their daughter plastered” (page 252).

While of course this new information still does not prove Montag’s death was the catalyst, I believe the depth of his friendship with KM is an important part of this story ……

(All extracts from ‘Meeting of Generals’ Tony Foster . Authors choice Press”– I was rather hoping to contact Foster someday but sadly I see that he died in 2012 – he seems to have been quite a character! http://thechronicleherald.ca/artslife/1 ... adventurer)

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Harro
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#142

Post by Harro » 05 Jan 2016, 15:41

As a member of the Reichstag and high ranking member of the Allgemeine SS, Montag was not just a close friend of Kurt Meyer but also a "VIP" in Nazi Germany and for that reason his fatal wounding might very well have been the catalyst for reprisals.


Fritz Montag (SS-No. 27 558) was born in Schernecke near Magdeburg on the 14th of November 1896 and was married to Frieda (né Jäger, born on the 27th of September 1898). Tragically their three sons drowned in the Elbe on the 10th of March 1935. After primary school and a commercial apprenticeship Montag attended a commercial school and became a merchant in cereals and colonial goods. From March 1916 he served as a private in MG-Scharfschützen-Abteilung 39 until the end of the First World War. During the chaotic first post-war year Montag joined the ethno-nationalistic ‘Deutschvölkischen Schutz- und Trutzbund’ (German Nationalist Protection and Defiance Federation) which was founded to ‘fight Judaism’ and agitated against the Weimar Republic. In 1923 he joined the ‘Nationalsozialistische Freiheitspartei’ (National Socialist Freedom Party), a dummy-party created when the NSDAP was outlawed following Hitler’s failed Beer Hall Putsch. He joined the NSDAP as soon as the party was reformed in 1925 and became co-founder of the Allgemeine-SS in Meckelenburg. From 1933 Montag was ‘Gauobmann’ (district chairman) with the ‘Deutsche Arbeitsfront’ (German Labour Front, or DAF), the National Socialist trade union organisation which replaced the trade unions of the Weimar Republic. During the 1936 elections he failed to become a member of parliament but would eventually get his seat in the Reichstag on the 9th of February 1943 after Karl Seemann died. By that time Montag was also commander of the ‘Vogelsang’ National Socialist school in the Eifel Mountains and served as an SS-Untersturmführer in the Waffen-SS under battalion commander SS-Obersturmbannführer Kurt Meyer. Montag lost both legs when his vehicle hit a minefield and died in a hospital in the Ukrainian city of Poltava on the 20th of February 1943.

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seaburn
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#143

Post by seaburn » 05 Jan 2016, 15:51

Thanks for posting 'Harro' do you or anyone else have a picture of him?

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Harro
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#144

Post by Harro » 05 Jan 2016, 15:52

BTW on a side note, I don't understand why Foster placed the death of his children in 1942...
Verlustmeldung.jpg

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seaburn
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#145

Post by seaburn » 05 Jan 2016, 16:39

He didn't actually say when they died but it was only in 42 that the incident with KMs daughter happened although on reading it, you would think it had happened only a short time earlier .... I presume we can rely more on the date in his file.....it would seem that the poor man may have taken to drink to deal with the pain.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#146

Post by history1 » 05 Jan 2016, 20:21

Harro wrote:[...] The victims of mines are usually recognized by the type of wounds they suffered. For example, SS-Untersturmführer Bernd Schütte (platoonleader in 1./AA LAH) is listed in the Verlustliste as wounded with "Prellungen d. Knie" and when I asked one of his men about this, Karl replied:
„Dann sind wir an zwei Schwimmwagen vorbei gefahren. Das eine war Bernd Schütte, der war bei uns im Halbzug und führte jetzt ein Zug im 1. Kompanie. Als wir da vorbei gefahren sind, sagte der Schütte: Ich hab Glück gehabt. Die sind ja auf Minen gefahren.“
"Then we drove past two Schwimmwagen. One was Bernd Schütte, who was with us in the half-platoon and now led a platoon in the 1st Company. When we drove past there, Schütte said: "I've been lucky. They had driven on mines."
[...]
I wonder if "Prellungen d. Knie" = "Contusion of the knees" can be considered mine related. I even would´n call it "wound" but "injury". Even a harsh braking of your car and not wearing a seat belt can provide such injury. Also the last sentence let me assume that Schütte himself did not drive onto a mine.
So also the suggested relation/statement
I am quite certain the two Schwimmwagen mentioned striking mines are these photographed from AA LAH with Meyers Kfz. 21 s. gl. Pkw staff car following. Meyer is standing up left as viewed in the Kfz.21 following the lead Schwimmer.
of "eindhoven´s photo and the two amphibian vehicles (= Schwimmwagen) must be rejected.

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Harro
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#147

Post by Harro » 05 Jan 2016, 20:28

Keep in mind that I cite Karl: "They had driven on mines" is what Karl said about Schütte. Possibly Schütte's Schwimmwagen suffered from the blast after the lead vehicle hit a mine which could account for the contusion. Hard to say, all we have is Karl's memories.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#148

Post by history1 » 05 Jan 2016, 20:29

Harro wrote:[...] The mines which wounded Schütte also killed SS-Sturmmann Josef Sieber (Mattersburg, 1. Mai 1919). SS-Untersturmführer Bernhard "Bernd" Schütte (Braunschweig, 4. Juni 1921 / SS-Nr. 378 570) had been in command of one of the half-platoons in the IV.(schw.)Zug (SS-Hscha. Robert Frank) of 2./AA LAH since Metz (as an SS-Uscha.) and had been in command of the IV.(schw.) Zug of 1./AA LAH during the Charkow battles. He is MIA since 1945 (as SS-Ostuf. and Chef Aufkl.Zug, 8. SS-Kavallerie-Division).
You've lost me. Please explain what let you asume that he was wounded through a mine.

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Harro
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#149

Post by Harro » 05 Jan 2016, 20:31

See my above reply

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#150

Post by history1 » 05 Jan 2016, 20:44

Don´t know who your Karl is but that´doesn´t matter. Let us review his statement once more:

Karl said: " Then we drove past two Schwimmwagen. One was Bernd Schütte [...]"
Further in his testimony: When we drove past there, Schütte said: "I've been lucky. They had driven on mines."

As German native speaker I can not see any hint in this testimony to think that Schütter was wounded through a mine.
The picture how I see Karl´s story:
They drove along a street, at a certain place they met two amphibian vehicles. In one the recognised Schütte who told Karl: "I was lucky, they (= a third party) drove on mines."
Schütte was glad about this circumstance, because his injury he wasn´t part of the group which drove on the mines and died.

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