Claims of Forged, Altered or Missing Evidence

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Erik
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Post by Erik » 22 Jan 2003 04:52

Mr. Thompson wrote:
History is full of the horrible, the magnificent, and everything in between. But if you don't want to believe it, why not thumb through a book of Maxfield Parrish paintings, or visit a museum, or photograph beautiful girls? Why waste your time asking questions about something you don't want to believe?

Your explanation has something unreal about it -- like a guy who calls a radio station to request songs he doesn't want to hear.


A very good point and two very good questions. Tarpon27 probably had something like that on his mind when he wrote:
Erik wrote:
I’m asked to ”challenge directly” and ”present evidence” of my ”conclusions”. Then I have to search archives and statistics for original documents and national registration records and European population census etc etc for half a century of world history, haven’t I?
Tarpon27 wrote:
But the alternative is then to simply assert that, for example, 700,000 didn't die at Treblinka because the documentation is forged or suspect? It seems remarkably easy to stop any and all discussion, and why bother with history if all it takes is a simple accusation of fraud to make it invalid? You don't have to present your reasons why you find the documentation fraudulent or forged, simply assert that since it can be forged, it is. End of discussion.
I don’t want to hear that 700,000 were murdered and buried and exhumed and cremated at Treblinka. I don’t want to believe it.

The questioning of it has consequently something “unreal” about it, when the alternative is so simple : stop asking, squeal forgery, and cry quits!

Still, I keep on posting here, “requesting” what I don’t want to hear nor believe.

Maybe witness has found me out?
Erik wrote:
But Treblinka is a realm of such madness, that I will suspend my belief as far as the law permit. I will grasp at every straw of doubt and disbelief, and relish every disproof of its “realities”.
"relish'' is the word !!
Relish Erik, relish ..
Maybe there is something sexual about it? Having Truth unrelentingly whipped across my keyboarding fingers, or slapped around my “don’t-want-to-hear” ears by the Guardians of the Holy Grail is making it possible for me to emulate St Teresa and the relishes of “piercings”?

Witness understood it once like this:
Memory of this terrible period in history will remain - even if we wished to get rid of it .Interesting question though - can memory prevent us from doing the same things over and over again. Look at Yugoslavia, Rwanda
etc. Does anybody "learn" from history ?
Are not we engaged in some sort of collective mazochism when trying to
understand the Holocaust ?
What are we trying to achieve ?
"Lest we forget "- I think can be the only "normal" reason.
Guilt is for the guilty.
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 7129#97129

[“Can Germany ever be forgiven?” is still on side 1, as you can see below (20030122)!]

Memory, riddance-wish, learning, “collective mazochism”, understanding, normality and guilt – “over and over again”. “Komm, süsses Kreuz!”

The terrible and its mazochistic pleasures engage us – “lest we forget”!

“Guilt is for the guilty”, memory is for all of us.
“Relish, Erik , relish”.
………………..

That’s the “queer” side of it.

But the queer can be right, too. In fact it can be commanded, to strenghten the 10 commandments that we inherit from our Fathers.(See Bauer quote below.)

The Swedish government is about to instigate a new “myndighet” – Swedish for “authority” (“power or right to enforce obedience”, acc. to Oxford Concise Dict.) called Forum For Living History, lead by an authority on Nazi and Neo-Nazi political organizations in Sweden and elsewhere – Heléne Lööw.

The government is heeding the call from the following “Task Force”:
http://taskforce.ushmm.gov/

The task of its force is “to place political and social leaders’ support behind the need for Holocaust education, rememberance and research both nationally and internationally.”(see link).


Vaclav Havel, (ex now or soon)President of the Czech Republic is quoted on the same “task” on another link:
"Education and a knowledge of history, combined with humanity and with an ordinary capability of compassion, hopefully will enable us to recognize the germs of the old-new dangers and to fetter the demons of hatred and evil before they take hold of us again."
http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/education/ ... ublic.html

http://taskforce.ushmm.gov/

“and thou shalt never, but never, be a bystander”.

That’s commandment no. 13, according to Bauer(click link above.)

Does this allow me to just “…thumb through a book of Maxfield Parrish paintings, or visit a museum, or photograph beautiful girls?” and let the horrible world “stand by” itself?

Perhaps it depends on who the perpetrators and the victims are?

“Stand by, and ask no questions!”

Any déjà-vu?

“OK, but ask no questions!"

Erik
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Post by Erik » 22 Jan 2003 05:40

Roberto wrote:
I'll skip the unintelligible blah-blah-blah thereafter and go right to one the philosopher's favorite out-of-context quotes:

Quote:
We KNOW that more than a million human beings were killed and lied buried in these acres , but it cannot be BELIEVED!!
(Gitta Sereny “Into that Darkness”, side 145)

What Sereny is saying here is that we know from documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence that the mass killings at Treblinka took place, but it is hard to conceive the idea that so many human beings should have been murdered in so relatively small a place.

She is not questioning the plausibility of the relation between the burial space and the number of dead bodies.

Why should she ?

As my calculations - which the philosopher avoids addressing - clearly shows, there's noting implausible about that relation.

Erik wrote:
That’s knowledge, isn’t it?

Indeed it is. Knowledge based on documentary and eyewitness evidence, the latter including the depositions of perpetrators before West German courts.

Erik wrote:
CAN it be refuted by archive finds?

An upward or downward revision of the estimates on the number of dead by new archival finds is possible, of course. The widely accepted estimate of 600,000 dead at Belzec had to be revised downward because the Höfle report mentioned only 434,508 deportees until 31.12.1942 and the camp had ceased receiving victims before that. Future archival finds may also give us a more precise idea of how many Jews from the General Government and other countries were taken to Treblinka beside the 713,555 mentioned in Höfle's report.
Sereny may find “…hard to conceive the idea that so many human beings should have been murdered in so relatively small a place”, but that does not mean that she is “questioning the plausibility of the relation between the burial space and the number of dead bodies”.

An"idea" can be hard to conceive without being questioned. A little reformulation can make it “go down” easier.

In other words, she is mathematician enough to know that the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin is related to concept of “body”, which can be every-, some-, or no-, and still a “body” of sort.

Then, what is hard to conceive, if the mathematics is plausible?

Perhaps the “realm of madness”?

Those girls doing the cooking, and going home to families on their “days off”? While those hundreds of thousands of dead bodies are laying around, or in the ground, or on grids, stinking to heaven?

The everyday, all-in-a-day’s-work madness of Treblinka, plus the “mathematical”, economical, geopolitical, “racial” madness of such an attempt, a “Final Solution” that cannot by any reasonable means be a “mathematical”, economical, geopolitical, “racial” or “Final” solution of any “problem”, except in a “realm of madness”.

And afterwards : “why do you ask”?, and laws against asking the “wrong” questions!

When knowledge is legislated, belief can be hypocritical. “Churchgoing” the part of a career. The danger of doubt is administrated to be checked by penitence and education.[A “Forum for Living History” (i.e. Lipstad’s “real” history!) will be “authorized” in June 2003 at the instigation of the Swedish government. http://taskforce.ushmm.org/]

When your mind “boggles” at any piece of evidence or article of faith, it must be ascribed to a “weakness” of it – i.e., your mind, not the evidence.(Sereny on the girls cooking at the Treblinka mess.)

To me, that’s what Sereny says in the quote.

And the religious “déjà vu” is obvious.
………………
Roberto then shows the possible limits or “scope” of a future revision of the statistics from hypothetical archive finds.
As my calculations - which the philosopher avoids addressing - clearly shows, there's noting implausible about that relation.
I avoid to address the mathematics – “the angels dancing” – of the calculations.

I tried to address the “refutability” of it by archive finds.

The possibily of refutation.

That is the “science” of any calculations in the real world, according to some – as apart form angelic dances.

On the thread “The Last Words of Franz Ziereis”, the Commandant of Camp Mauthausen names and “populates” the camps under his administrations that he can “remember” (sic). All in all, there was 45 such camps. (I.e., about the same number making up the Auschwitz “Gulag”.)
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=14129

Labor or transit camps, not death camps. The gassings at Castle Hartheim had to be executed under the pretext of “mental derangement”, not “racial inferiority”(?).

IF (please note the capitals!) the Treblinka camps (I and II) can be shown to be part of a similar Gulag of labor and transit camps, populated via the delousing (and quarantine) camp Treblinka II, by documents suddenly surfacing from archives in Moscow, and elsewere, will your calculations still prove that 700 000 people were gassed and cremated there?

The Hoefle memo, the witness relations, perpetrator affidavit, and the forensic investigations – plus your “capacity calculations” – will still make it a death camp with the same number of victims?

Can such documents – IF they surface!! – be suspected to be forgeries “out of hand”,extempore, on the strenght of what we already know?

You write:
An upward or downward revision of the estimates on the number of dead by new archival finds is possible, of course.
and give the revised calculation of victims at Belzec as an example. A piece of information on a piece of paper and suddenly 165,000 victims are saved (or gassed elsewhere? Sobibor?).

But later “…and the camp had ceased receiving victims before that”.

How sure is this information? Can it be revised?

From december –42 to march –43 were the massgraves exhumed and the corpses cremated on a hill outside the camp area. According to “Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas”(Kogon, Langbein, Rückerl u.a., Fischer 1986, side 190), were the gas chambers and the buildings destroyed “at the same time”. “In dieser Zeit wurden die Gaskammern und andere Gebäude zerstört. Die jüdischen Häftlinge wurden von Belzec nach Sobibor gebracht und dort ermordet.”

The last sentence seems to take care of both the personnel that executed the exhumations of the Belzec massgraves, AND those arriving too late to be gassed there. (Brought to Sobibor, although the Belzec gas chambers were extant!)

But why not “keep” the gas chambers to the last, and let those 165,000 “missing” be cremated at the same time as the exhumed corpses? Like they did at Treblinka at this time?

That’s what the camp was for, wasn’t it?

The Hoefle Memo makes this impossible?

Or weren’t there any Jews left to be killed? Did the former “widely accepted estimate of 600,000 dead at Belzec” forget to take this fact into account in the estimate?

Now what’s the point?Well, it is to “point out” or “emphasize” the “havoc” that some piece of information on a piece of paper can do to a “widely accepted estimate”, using statistical information of populations, arriving or departing by train or some other contrivance, from or to a place.

“Big deal”!?! Furthermore, I wouldn’t have thought about it if Roberto hadn’t told me, so I’m kicking at open doors(?).

But the questions remain:

Could pieces of information from an archive turn Treblinka into something else than a death camp? Transportation numbers on some Memos?

To repeat: Can such documents be assured to be forgeries, on the strenght of what we – irrefutably!! – already know?

The massgraves of at least 700,000 corpses at Treblinka is an irrefutable fact?

Mr. Thompson asked (twice) :
"If you are trying to make a point with the Treblinka numbers, what is it? If it's that you think the Treblinka statistics are unreliable, ok. Other contributors have also questioned them, and been answered by yet other contributors. But ultimately, whatever the numbers may be, the place was a murder camp. It was established and operated by the Nazi government to kill persons -- men women and children -- on the basis of something the victims couldn't do anything about -- their race. So what's your point -- KZ Treblinka wasn't that bad, because they didn't kill as many people as some claimed?"
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 492#123492


“But ultimately, whatever the numbers may be, the place was a murder camp. It was established and operated by the Nazi government to kill persons—“

Can this be refuted by documents in the future? (The “IF” documents, please note!). The purpose and the intention of Treblinka?

Mr. Thompson writes “murder camp”, not “death camp”; is there a distinction here? A “death camp” had only one purpose – to kill all and every Jew that arrived there. His next sentence gives the definition.

As Scott Smith asks:
I don't think Treblinka was a "pure extermination camp," as per the Hilberg thesis--but what quantifiable threshold defines "murder camp"?


If Treblinka can be shown to have been a camp from which people were transported to other camps, will it stop being called a “death camp” and turned into a “murder” camp, where some got murdered and some travelled through?

If no “death camp” as distinguished from such “murder camps” can be documented to have existed, will the notion of the alleged preplanned extermination policy as the “Final Solution” have to be revised?

A “murder camp” as distinguished from a “death camp” is bad enough.

But the latter is the outcome of a policy of racial extermination – and that is “more” than murder.

It’s another “realm”.

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Scott Smith
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Re: Modern Meccas

Post by Scott Smith » 22 Jan 2003 06:43

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
There should be millions of teeth,
Why should there be "millions" of teeth?
Well, each human has from 0-32 teeth, normally. Let's say on average that each victim whose body was disposed-of there (using Hilberg's more-conservative 700 thousand figure) had 12 teeth and that only half of these were gold and therefore wound-up in Reichsbank jewelry sacks. That leaves 6 x 700 thousand = 4.2 million teeth, by very conservative estimates. The maximum possible could be 28 million.
The bodies were burned, and what was left was ground over and over again until it fit through a narrow-meshed sieve.
Really? And you know this how? How many Sonderkommando would be required to chop wood to burn the bodies on barbecue grills and then grind the bones into flour? And then what happened to this flour? (Not to mention wood ash.) Absence of evidence is not evidence of coverup.
Some teeth may have survived the process, but try to find them in roughly 100,000 cubic meters of pit space, assuming that two thirds of the 20,000 square meters of burial area were pits and that these, according to the depth to which the Central Commission found human remains, were 7.5 meters deep.
A minor task for forensic-archaeology, especially once the mass-grave is located. Or what did the Nazis use that steam-shovel for?

Oh, nevermind. I get it! Along with martyr's blood making "a first-class combustion material," they milled the teeth and bones into Kremabrot. Then a big giant (with feet of clay) ate the bread. Fee Fi Fo Fum.
:lol:

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 22 Jan 2003 12:27

As the philosopher seems to be back to his unintelligible monologues, I'll have a look at what my oldest and dearest friend on this forum has produced.
Smith wrote:
There should be millions of teeth,
Roberto wrote:Why should there be "millions" of teeth?
Smith wrote:Well, each human has from 0-32 teeth, normally. Let's say on average that each victim whose body was disposed-of there (using Hilberg's more-conservative 700 thousand figure) had 12 teeth and that only half of these were gold and therefore wound-up in Reichsbank jewelry sacks. That leaves 6 x 700 thousand = 4.2 million teeth, by very conservative estimates. The maximum possible could be 28 million.
All very nice, but as irrelevant an arithmetic as I've ever seen due to the fact that teeth underwent a thorough burning and grinding procedure like all other parts of the victims' bodies.
Scott Smith wrote:
The bodies were burned, and what was left was ground over and over again until it fit through a narrow-meshed sieve.
Really? And you know this how?
From depositions of defendants and witnesses at the West German Treblinka trials quoted or referred to in Arad's book on the Reinhard(t) camps, see below.
Scott Smith wrote:How many Sonderkommando would be required to chop wood to burn the bodies on barbecue grills and then grind the bones into flour?
I don't know, but we can assume that, if the SS were bent on destroying the physical evidence, they put as many people to the job as was required. At least as long as true believers can provide no plausible alternative explanation as to the fate of the hundreds of thousands of people who, according to the documentary evidence, entered the camp, and who were never again seen outside what eyewitness evidence, corroborated like the documentary evidence by the physical traces found on site, was a place dedicated to mass murder.
Scott Smith wrote:And then what happened to this flour? (Not to mention wood ash.)
It was thrown back into the pits and intespersed with much larger amounts of earth and sand. See below.
Scott Smith wrote:Absence of evidence is not evidence of coverup.
The evidence of coverup was largely provided by the perpetrators themselves in their depositions as defendants at the West German Treblinka trials. See below.
Scott Smith wrote:
Some teeth may have survived the process, but try to find them in roughly 100,000 cubic meters of pit space, assuming that two thirds of the 20,000 square meters of burial area were pits and that these, according to the depth to which the Central Commission found human remains, were 7.5 meters deep.
A minor task for forensic-archaeology, especially once the mass-grave is located.
I'll believe that when Smith gets me the statement of an objective forensic archaeologist in confirmation of his article of faith. An archaeologist friend of mine says it's impossible, and my own calculations about the expectable relation between partial human remains on the one hand and earth and sand on the other (2.5 % ./. 97.5 %) make this assessment seem quite reasonable.
Scott Smith wrote:Or what did the Nazis use that steam-shovel for?
I presume Smith is referring to the excavators they used to take the decomposed bodies out of the mass graves and place them onto the burning grids.
Scott Smith wrote:Oh, nevermind. I get it! Along with martyr's blood making "a first-class combustion material," they milled the teeth and bones into Kremabrot. Then a big giant (with feet of clay) ate the bread. Fee Fi Fo Fum. :lol:
Smith's unpalatable bullshit smacks of understandable frustration at constantly having his articles of faith slapped around his ears.
The last camp where the cremation of the corpses was instituted was Treblinka. During Himmler’s visit to the camp at the end of February/beginning of March 1943, he was surprised to find that in Treblinka the corpses of over 700,000 Jews who had been killed there had not yet been cremated. The very fact that the cremation began immediately after his visit makes it more than possible that Himmler, who was very sensitive about the erasure of the crimes committed by Nazi Germany, personally ordered the cremating of the corpses there. A cremation site was erected for this purpose in the extermination area of the camp.
Some of the Jewish prisoners who were employed in the cremation operations in the camp escaped during the uprising in Treblinka and survived the war. Therefore, there is more information and evidence on the cremation process and installations in Treblinka than in the other death camps. The cremating structure consisted of a roaster made from five or six railroad rails laid on top of three rows of concrete pillars each 70 cm high. The facility was 30 meters wide.[my emphasis] The bodies were removed from the pits by an excavator. Stangl, the camp commander, relates:

<< It must have been at the beginning of 1943. That’s when excavators were brought in. Using these excavators, the corpses were removed from the huge ditches which had been used until then [for burial]. The old corpses were burned on the roasters, along with the new bodies [of new arrivals to the camp]. During the transition to the new system, Wirth came to Treblinka. As I recall, Wirth spoke of a Standartenführer who had experience in burning corpses. Wirth told me that according to the Standartenführer’s experience, corpses could be burned on a roaster, and it would work marvelously. I know that in the beginning [in Treblinka] they used rails from the trolley to build the cremation grill. But it turned out that these rails were too weak and bent in the heat. They were replaced with real railroad rails.>>

The Standartenführer mentioned by Wirth in his conversation with Stangl was Paul Blobel, commander of Commando 1005. To introduce the cremation of corpses in Treblinka, experts were sent from the other Operation Reinhard camps. SS Oberscharführer Heinrich Matthes, the commander of the “extermination area”, testified:

<< At that time SS Oberscharführer or Hauptscharführer [Herbert] Floss, who, as I assume, was previously in another extermination camp, arrived. He was in charge of the arrangements for cremating the corpses. The cremation took place in such a way that railway lines and concrete blocks were placed together. The corpses were piled on these rails. Brushwood was put under the rails. The wood was doused with petrol. In that way not only the newly accumulated corpses were cremated, but also those taken out from the graves.>>
[my emphasis]

A special working group composed of Jewish prisoners in the extermination area was organized for the cremation operation. Additional prisoners were transferred for this operation to the extermination area from the Lower Camp, where the work had decreased significantly due to a reduction in the pace and number of transports.[my emphasis]
After the cremation installation had been constructed, the process of removing the bodies from the pits began. The work was initiated by a single excavator; later, a second excavator was brought in. The shovel’s scoop removed six to eight corpses with each dip and dumped them on the edge of the pit. A special team of prisoners, working in twos, transferred the corpses to the crematorium on stretchers. There, another special team, called the “burning group” (Feuerkolonne) removed the corpses from the stretchers and arranged them in layers on the roaster to a height of two meters. Between 2,000 and 2,500 bodies – sometimes up to 3,000 – would be piled on the roaster. When all was ready, dry wood and branches, which had been laid under the roaster, were ignited. The entire construction, with the bodies, was quickly engulfed in fire. The railings would glow from the heat, and the flames would reach a height of up to 10 meters.
At first an inflammable liquid was poured onto the bodies to help them burn, but later this was considered unnecessary; the SS men in charge of the cremation became convinced that the corpses burned well enough without extra fuel.[my emphasis]
Yechiel Reichman, a member of the “burning group”, writes:

<< The SS “expert” on body burning ordered us to put women, particularly fat women, on the first layer of the grill, face down. The second layer could consist of whatever was brought – men, women, or children – and so on, layer on top of layer … Then the “expert” ordered us to lay dry branches under the grill and to light them. Within a few minutes the fire would take so it was difficult to approach the crematorium from as far as 50 meters away … The work was extremely difficult. The stench was awful. Liquid excretions from the corpses squirted all over the prisoner-workers. The SS man operating the excavator often dumped the corpses directly onto the prisoners working nearly, wounding them seriously …>>

Jacob Wiernik, who was in the “extermination area”, describes the fire itself:

<< It was genuine hell. From a distance it looked like a volcanic eruption boiling up through the earth’s surface and spreading flames and lava. Everything around was caught up in the noise and turmoil. At night the smoke, fire, and heat were unbearable.>>

The body-burning took on a rapid pace. To further streamline the operation, a new work team was set up to place the bodies on the stretchers. The idea was to keep the stretcher-bearers from having to place the stretchers on the ground and load the bodies themselves; during this time they could rest for a second. Under the new system the men who transferred the bodies did not set the stretchers down throughout the day. Other efficiency measures introduced included increasing the number of cremation sites to six – thus enabling the workers to burn up to 12,000 corpses simultaneously – and placing the cremating roasters nearer the mass graves to save time in transporting the bodies. The roasters occupied a good portion of the area east of the gas chambers, which was clear of mass graves and buildings.
The bodies of victims brought to Treblinka in transports arriving after the body-burning began were taken directly from the gas chambers of the roasters and were not buried in the ditches. These bodies did not burn as well as those removed from the ditches and had to be sprayed with fuel before they would burn.[my emphasis]
The body-burning went on day and night. The corpses were transferred and arranged on the roasters during the day; at nightfall they were lit, and they burned throughout the night. When the fire went out, there were only skeletons or scattered bones on the roasters, and piles of ash underneath. Another special team, known as the “ash group” (Aschenkolonne), had the task of collecting the ash and removing the remains of the charred bones from the grill and placing them on tin sheets. Round wooden sticks were then used to break the bones into small fragments. These were then run through a tightly woven screen made of metal wire; those bone fragments which did not pass through the screen were then returned for further smashing. Unburned bones which proved too difficult to fragment were returned to the roaster and re-ignited with a new pile of bodies.[my emphasis]
The camp command was confronted with the problem of disposing of the large piles of ash and bits of bone that remained after the process was completed. Attempts to mix the ash with dirt and dust proved unsuccessful as a means of concealing the ash. Ultimately it was decided to dump the ash and bits of bone into the ditches that had previously held the bodies and to cover them with a thick layer of sand and dirt. The ash was scattered in the pits in several layers, interspersed with layers of sand. The top 2 meters of the pit were filled with earth.[my emphasis]
A few prisoners who worked inside the pits from which the bodies were removed and who were engaged in cleaning the pits of solid human remains and scattering the ashes decided to leave some evidence of the Germans’ mass murders. Abraham Goldfarb relates:


<< … we secretly placed in the walls of the graves whole skeletons and we wrote on scraps of paper what the Germans were doing at Treblinka. We put the scraps of paper into bottles which we placed next to the skeletons. Our intention was that if one day someone looked for traces of the Nazis’ crimes, they could indeed be found …>>

In the Lower Camp the body-burning could be both seen and felt. Occasionally the prisoners would see the shovel scoop raised high with corpses inside. Smoke from the roasters often blanketed the Lower Camp; the smoke, and the smell of charred flesh, cause the prisoners breathing difficulties. Moreover, the fire and billowing smoke could be seen for miles around. They were evident even at Treblinka Penal Camp 1, located 3 kilometers away. A prisoner at “Treblinka 1” described what he saw:

<< The spring winds brought with them the smell of burning bodies from the nearby extermination camp. We breathed in the stench of smoldering corpses … We heard the clatter of the excavators for days and nights on end … At night we gazed at skies red from the flames. Sometimes you could also see tongues of flame rising into the night …>>

The burning of the bodies, the scattering of ashes, and the refilling of the ditches went on for months. The mass graves, emptied of the victims’ bodies and refilled with the victims’ ashes and bits of their bones, were covered with a thick layer of earth. The cremation of the corpses in the death camps of Operation Reinhard continued until the last days of activity there. […]


Source of quote:

Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, pages 173 and following.

Due to the strict prohibition against photographing events at these camps, regarding which every SS man serving there had to sign a statement, there are no photographs of the burning grids described i.a. at the Treblinka trials before the Düsseldorf County Court. But we can get an idea of what they looked like on hand of photographs of the aftermath of the Allied bombing attack on Dresden on 13/14 February 1945, when the bodies of thousands of victims were disposed of by a similar method, even though the grids used at Dresden were much smaller than the ones used at Treblinka.

Image

Image

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 22 Jan 2003 13:26

Erik wrote:IF (please note the capitals!) the Treblinka camps (I and II) can be shown to be part of a similar Gulag of labor and transit camps, populated via the delousing (and quarantine) camp Treblinka II, by documents suddenly surfacing from archives in Moscow, and elsewere, will your calculations still prove that 700 000 people were gassed and cremated there?
Hope is the last thing to die, isn't it, philosopher ?

The day such documents suddenly surface from archives in Moscow, showing that the defendants and witnesses at the West German Treblinka trials who described Treblinka as a site of mere extermination told very elaborate and strangely coincident lies (by which the former even incriminated themselves) or were out of their minds, and that at least 700,000 people were in fact working on a factory complex several times the size of Soviet Magnitogorsk, a canal from the Bug to the Baltic or a similar mega-project, please let us know.

If any of us is still alive by then, that is.

And if you have a chicken farm, take a close look at your hens' beaks.

Maybe they'll have teeth on that day.

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witness
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Post by witness » 22 Jan 2003 18:47

Erik wrote:Maybe witness has found me out?
Erik wrote:
But Treblinka is a realm of such madness, that I will suspend my belief as far as the law permit. I will grasp at every straw of doubt and disbelief, and relish every disproof of its “realities”.
"relish'' is the word !!
Relish Erik, relish ..
Maybe there is something sexual about it? Having Truth unrelentingly whipped across my keyboarding fingers, or slapped around my “don’t-want-to-hear” ears by the Guardians of the Holy Grail is making it possible for me to emulate St Teresa and the relishes of “piercings”?
I wonder ... So Erik what is the goal of your inquiry (asking all these rhetorical questions ) - to find out what really happened in every particular case or to learn the truth you would like to "relish"? Can I make a suggestion then ? Just type "IHR" or "Codoh " in the Google search engine box and you will find.. " the truth " which would not be so terrible for your sensitive psyche ..
Why are not you happy with their version of the "truth" Erik ? Maybe because you just want to propagate it somewhat in other places (like TRF )? Could it be that asking all those numerous rhetorical questions is not about finding the answers at all ? (Just a guess ) Because you don't seem particularly interested in the answers ..( Or are you ? Then how would you relate to the Stroop report with regard to Treblinka ? Or Becker's letter to Rauff ? Forgeries ?
Weckert analysis ?But what about Zimmerman analysis of her "analysis"?
Yeah it is safer to just keep on ignoring all this stuff ..)
Could it be that you are more interested in your own questions which you fancy can convince somebody in your version of the “truth “ ...?
Does this allow me to just “…thumb through a book of Maxfield Parrish paintings, or visit a museum, or photograph beautiful girls?” and let the horrible world “stand by” itself?
No ? It doesn’t ?
Poor thing . Are you so much afraid of being harassed and threatened by incarceration for not partaking in the Holocaust education over there in Sweden ?
They just don’t give you any respite ..
I feel so sorry for you Erik .. Really ..
P.S.
IMHO the best strategy to really find out what happened in every particular case is to ask one question at a time and investigate all the sources to finally come to some satisfactory conclusuions .
Is it a bad way to learn Erik ? :wink:

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Post by witness » 23 Jan 2003 02:04

Scott .
Againg some questions if you don't mind 8O
You wrote
I don't think Treblinka was a "pure extermination camp," as per the Hilberg thesis--but what quantifiable threshold defines "murder camp"?
So you are more inclined to believe that Treblinka as a matter of fact was only a transit camp for the Jews to be "resettled " in the occupied by Germany territories of USSR. Do I understand you correct ?
If I do - then here comes the question - Where all these Jews were "resettled " ?
Also -are there any evidence (census comparisons , testimonies of the Jews or the Russians who would witness such a huge population influx from the General Goverment ) of such resettlements ? For example are there any evidence that some Jews of 265000 inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto wounded up anywhere in Russia ?
Any answers ? :)

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Post by Scott Smith » 23 Jan 2003 02:41

Roberto wrote:All very nice, but as irrelevant an arithmetic as I've ever seen due to the fact that teeth underwent a thorough burning and grinding procedure like all other parts of the victims' bodies.
What burning and grinding procedure? I am not saying that it is impossible to burn hundreds of bodies on grids. Certainly not. You have the photos from Dresden. But how about hundreds of thousands in a small lot? And without a trace!

Another issue was how much fuel. With the agricultural paper researched by Xanthro on cattle disposal (below) we calculated minimum values of calories for incineration. It was still a LOT of fuel and an OPEN barbecue would need still more, not to mention the manpower needed to chop the wood.

As far as grinding the bones and teeth to explain the inability to find the mass-grave, that is pure fantasy. How many men with sledgehamers and sieves do you suppose it would take?

As far as your archaeology experts, that's a fair question. I'll keep a lookout for information on that subject. I question that your expert would find nothing. That is what they do, find chips and shards from ancient civilizations. And no coverup in the world would leave no mistakes.
:)

CLICK! Options for the Mechanised Slaughter and Disposal of Contagious Diseased Animals--a discussion paper presented at Conference on Agricultural Engineering, Adelaide, 2-5 April, 2000.

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Post by Scott Smith » 23 Jan 2003 03:00

witness wrote:Scott .
Againg some questions if you don't mind 8O
Scott wrote:I don't think Treblinka was a "pure extermination camp," as per the Hilberg thesis--but what quantifiable threshold defines "murder camp"?
So you are more inclined to believe that Treblinka as a matter of fact was only a transit camp for the Jews to be "resettled " in the occupied by Germany territories of USSR. Do I understand you correct ?
If I do - then here comes the question - Where all these Jews were "resettled " ?
I don't think it is an Either-Or proposition. It is incumbent upon the accusers to make their claims believable and I don't think they have done that. It is not my job as a skeptic to answer their questions for them. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that there was some level of body-disposal there from arriving trains, and also murder (though not with diesel engines). How much is the question. I think real forensic archaeology would give us some answers.
Also -are there any evidence (census comparisons , testimonies of the Jews or the Russians who would witness such a huge population influx from the General Goverment ) of such resettlements ? For example are there any evidence that some Jews of 265000 inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto wounded up anywhere in Russia ?
Any answers ? :)
Hard to say for sure but the idea that there were NO deportations or emigrations of Jews to Russia is just not believable. The Soviets easily could have used unwanted populations for forced-labor as well and I think it is nearly certain that they did to some extent. I don't know how many or even IF any from the Warsaw Ghetto wound-up in Russia. But I can't see the Germans exterminating the able-bodied at the Reinhardt camps when they needed the labor.
:)

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Post by David Thompson » 23 Jan 2003 03:19

Scott -- You said: "As far as grinding the bones and teeth to explain the inability to find the mass-grave, that is pure fantasy. How many men with sledgehamers and sieves do you suppose it would take?"

The Nazi operation was more sophisticated than your description suggests. Check out these accounts from Lvov (Nazi Crimes in Ukraine 1941-1944, pp. 204-06, 221-23):
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Post by David Thompson » 23 Jan 2003 03:20

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Post by David Thompson » 23 Jan 2003 03:21

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Post by witness » 23 Jan 2003 03:24

Scott Smith wrote: It is incumbent upon the accusers to make their claims believable and I don't think they have done that. It is not my job as a skeptic to answer their questions for them.
This issue also can be presented differently.Like - is not it incumbent
upon those who accuse what they call "Orthodox" history in "fabricating the evidence" or "exaggerating the numbers" or "making unbased claims" to "make their claims believable " ? :wink:

witness wrote
So you are more inclined to believe that Treblinka as a matter of fact was only a transit camp for the Jews to be "resettled " in the occupied by Germany territories of USSR. Do I understand you correct ?
If I do - then here comes the question - Where all these Jews were "resettled " ?
Scott wrote
Hard to say for sure but the idea that there were NO deportations or emigrations of Jews to Russia is just not believable.
Why not ? 8O Any evidence that there were such deportations ?For example of the Jews from the Warsaw ghetto ?
Scott Smith wrote
The Soviets easily could have used unwanted populations for forced-labor as well and I think it is nearly certain that they did to some extent
Nice extrapolation.. Any proofs to back up such a theory ? :)
Scott Smith wrote
I don't know how many or even IF any from the Warsaw Ghetto wound-up in Russia.
You don't know....
And we are talking about hundreds of thousands of people.
Where did they disappear ?
Not a very comfortable question for you Scott I guess,if the only answer you can offer is this rather impotent " I am a skeptic " dodging .
But this is pretty clumsy way out ,is not it ? :)

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Post by Scott Smith » 23 Jan 2003 04:00

witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:It is incumbent upon the accusers to make their claims believable and I don't think they have done that. It is not my job as a skeptic to answer their questions for them.
This issue also can be presented differently. Like - is not it incumbent
upon those who accuse what they call "Orthodox" history in "fabricating the evidence" or "exaggerating the numbers" or "making unbased claims" to "make their claims believable " ? :wink:
Only if you make assumed premises over where the facts begin. It is rather like convincing the children in the orphanage than Santa Claus is not real. Instead the believers in Santa need to prove their thesis.
So you are more inclined to believe that Treblinka as a matter of fact was only a transit camp for the Jews to be "resettled " in the occupied by Germany territories of USSR. Do I understand you correct ?
Nope. My thesis is that the accusers haven't been able to provide convincing evidence to support their accusations.
If I do - then here comes the question - Where all these Jews were "resettled " ?
Not my problem. I am more concerned that inquiry is suppressed by various governments.
witness wrote:
Scott wrote:Hard to say for sure but the idea that there were NO deportations or emigrations of Jews to Russia is just not believable.
Why not ? 8O Any evidence that there were such deportations ?For example of the Jews from the Warsaw ghetto ?
Any evidence to support that they are not buried in my back yard?
witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:The Soviets easily could have used unwanted populations for forced-labor as well and I think it is nearly certain that they did to some extent
Nice extrapolation.. Any proofs to back up such a theory ? :)
I think Solzhenitsyn mentions it, but there is no doubt that they were considered no less disposable by the Soviets. Or do you deny the Gulag Archipelago?
:wink:
witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:I don't know how many or even IF any from the Warsaw Ghetto wound-up in Russia.
You don't know.... And we are talking about hundreds of thousands of people. Where did they disappear ?
Possibly literally anywhere. You don't think there is a toatl accounting from Soviet records, do you? In other words, for your logic to work your unstated premise is that we have examined all the Soviet records there ever were on this matter and ever will be--that there is nothing new that can be learned because we know it all already.
Not a very comfortable question for you Scott I guess, if the only answer you can offer is this rather impotent " I am a skeptic " dodging .
But this is pretty clumsy way out ,is not it ? :)
I don't have to disprove Santa to doubt Santa. If the Santa-Believers have all the answers, then they have been rather shy with them so far.
:)

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Post by witness » 23 Jan 2003 04:13

Scott Smith wrote
I think Solzhenitsyn mentions it, but there is no doubt that they were considered no less disposable by the Soviets. Or do you deny the Gulag Archipelago?
Where ..? Where in the Gulag Archipilago Solzhenitsyn mentions the Jews deported from the territory of General Goverment ( from the Warsaw ghetto for instance )?
By a chance "Gulag Archipilago" is one of my favorite books and I read it several times. Would you be so kind to remind me in what section ,chapter of the book he mentions such a development ?
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