Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
moravia
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 07:38

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#16

Post by moravia » 22 Aug 2008, 08:06

Interestingf that the original poster has no further argument to make. Nor do they acknowledge defeat when presented with the facts, or an argument that they simply cannot win. Deniers/Revisionists will just crawl back into the swastika adorned hole they came from.

User avatar
sallyg
Member
Posts: 615
Joined: 11 Jan 2006, 20:27
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#17

Post by sallyg » 23 Aug 2008, 21:30

TankCommander600 wrote: I am inclined to believe that no more than 5 or 6 thousand people ever died in Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec combined. The facts simply do not support the claim that 1.5 million were killed.

*EXTENSIVE SNIP*

Now, we can also see on this map the burial pits surrounding the camp. Surely the well would have been contaminated surrounded by all these rotting bodies?

Now, let's take a look at the burial pits themselves. In Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Yitzhak Arad says, regarding Treblinka:

"East of the gas chambers, and close to them, were huge ditches for burying the dead. The ditches were 50 metres long, 25 metres wide, and 10 metres deep"
So, roughly 50m X 25M X 9M= 11,250 m^3 per pit, right?
TankCommander600 wrote:
*EXTENSIVE SNIP*

50 inches x 26 inches x 16 inches= 20800 inches, or 0.3408 cubic metres.
The human body has roughly the specific gravity of water. Fat weighs less than water, bone and muscle, more. So, a person weighing 100kg will displace .1m^ A cubic metre of water weighs 1 metric tonne, right? A cubic metre measures 100cm X 100cm X 100cm, right? No Imperial to metric conversions and the resultant possibility of error are required.

Yet you would have us believe that a malnourished deportee, be it man, woman or child from the Warsaw Ghetto would, by your arithmetic, have to weigh 340 kg, allowing 3 people per cubic metre, right?

Alternatively, a generous average weight of 40kg per person would permit a burial density of 25 people per cubic metre.
TankCommander600 wrote:Now, looking at what Arad mentioned about the pits, we can multiple 50x25x9 (Arad mentioned the top layer is dirt only, so take off a metre) to get 11250 cubic metres per pit. Divide 11250 by 0.3408 (to see how many bodies each pit can hold), and we get 33010.
Alternatively, using the dimensions of 11,250m^ per pit and a density of 25 bodies per cubic metre that accounts for a theoretical capacity of 281,250.
TankCommander600 wrote:Treblinka shows 5 pits, however, the two on the left are smaller than the 3 of the right, so we'll combine those 2 and say they make up one full sized pit. So we have 4 full sized pits.

33010x4= 132040.
Or 281,500 X 4 pits = 1,125,000 dead people.
275,000 more than the average accepted number of 850,000.
That leaves a 32% margin for pit slope and dirt inter-layers, the top layer has already been incorporated.

TankCommander600 wrote:132040 is therefore the maximum number that could have possibly been buried in Treblinka. History would tell us it was 650000-700000, which as you can see, is quite obviously nothing more than a lie. You would need 21 burial pits to bury the 700000 number..

*EXTENSIVE SNIP*
So, unless you can show me where my arithmetic is wrong, get back to me when you are within an order of magnitude of logic.

P.S. Enjoy your stay.

Doug


User avatar
Adam Carr
Member
Posts: 2648
Joined: 30 Jan 2008, 14:40
Location: Melbourne Australia
Contact:

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#18

Post by Adam Carr » 24 Aug 2008, 05:27

I still think that this post should be classed as Holocaust denial and the threat deleted. To deny that Aktion Reinhard ever took place is in effect to deny the reality of the Holocaust, which is against the clearly stated rules of this forum.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#19

Post by David Thompson » 24 Aug 2008, 06:25

Adam Carr -- Thank you for your opinion, but there are 25,771 other AHF members' opinions to consider, too. If you have some sourced factual information about the topic, those AHF members and our many readers would be grateful if you posted it.

User avatar
Adam Carr
Member
Posts: 2648
Joined: 30 Jan 2008, 14:40
Location: Melbourne Australia
Contact:

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#20

Post by Adam Carr » 24 Aug 2008, 06:54

I wasn't aware these matters were decided by popular vote of members. If that's the case, where do I vote?

No, I am not going to post material on whether the Holocaust happened or not. That just lends legitimacy to Holocaust denialists, who are not open to rational argument anyway. I suggest you read the comments of this forum's founder on this matter:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10881

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#21

Post by David Thompson » 24 Aug 2008, 19:26

Adam Carr -- You wrote:
No, I am not going to post material on whether the Holocaust happened or not.
If so, don't clutter the thread.
3. Opinions

Since the purpose of this section of the forum is to exchange information and hold informed discussions about historical problems, posts which express unsolicited opinions without supporting facts and sources do not promote the purposes of the forum. Consequently, such posts are subject to deletion after a warning to the poster.

The same reasoning applies to opinion threads.

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

User avatar
Penn44
Banned
Posts: 4214
Joined: 26 Jun 2003, 07:25
Location: US

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#22

Post by Penn44 » 25 Aug 2008, 02:39

David:

In regards to the the claims made by Tankcommander600, I did some internet research. It seems that Tankcommander600 lifted his information without properly citing its source, and that source is an internet Holocaust Denier "film" entitled, One Third of the Holocaust, specifically episode 16 of that loathsome film. He also gets his contaminated well notion from episode 2 which deals with the well water claim. Normally, failure to cite a source is just a written reprimand and forum rules reminder by you, but given this person is obviously a disreputable person bent on unscrupulously and deviously exposing our wholesome goodness to this slime, I suggest to our Forum staff they undertake more radical steps to deal with this turd in human form.

In compliance with forum rules, I won't publically include a link to this sordid film which is obviously the work of a deranged mind.

To uncover Tankcommander's disception, I did a Google search of some of the numbers he used and "Treblinka," and discovered a report of the film at the Internet blogsite, Holocaust Controversies.

In June 2006 our good friends at Holocaust Controversies report a Holocaust denier movie on You Tube video [now banned]:
… in addition to his previous manipulations, the genius then arrives at the ridiculously high volume-per-body and correspondingly low density of bodies in the grave that he expects his gullible readers to swallow: 0.3408 cubic meters occupied by one body plus the sand or chlorine topping it …
Bold mine.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... t-see.html

Compare this to Tankcommander's:
Now, if we take the height of the average person to be 5 foot (factoring in children here as well), 2.3 feet in width, and 9 inches deep (these are fairly standard measurements and nothing over the top), but add 7 inches of sand/chlorine to be scattered in between each layer, but take off 10 inches of height (because the head and feet overlap) we get:

50 inches x 26 inches x 16 inches= 20800 inches, or 0.3408 cubic metres.
Bold mine.

Coincidence or plagiarism?

Whatever it is, it is vile, and has no place in our forum.

Again, I strongly recommend the Forum staff to remove this Denier and his ilk from our midst.

Penn44

.
I once was told that I was vain, but I knew that vanity was a fault, so I gave it up because I have no faults.

User avatar
sallyg
Member
Posts: 615
Joined: 11 Jan 2006, 20:27
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#23

Post by sallyg » 25 Aug 2008, 02:57

If permitted to render an opinion, the poster is obviously a denier, has posted twice ands has failed to attempt to defend his lies.

Ergo, ban the troll.

Doug

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#24

Post by David Thompson » 25 Aug 2008, 03:02

Gentlemen -- Exposing fallacies, and providing accurate information, is why we have a successful AHF. Please keep that in mind.

Now let's get back on topic.

User avatar
Penn44
Banned
Posts: 4214
Joined: 26 Jun 2003, 07:25
Location: US

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#25

Post by Penn44 » 25 Aug 2008, 03:06

David Thompson wrote:Gentlemen -- Exposing fallacies, and providing accurate information, is why we have a successful AHF. Please keep that in mind.

Now let's get back on topic.
Are we or are we not going to have a lynchin'?

Penn44

.
I once was told that I was vain, but I knew that vanity was a fault, so I gave it up because I have no faults.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#26

Post by David Thompson » 25 Aug 2008, 03:19

Are we or are we not going to have a lynchin'?
We are not.

User avatar
Adam Carr
Member
Posts: 2648
Joined: 30 Jan 2008, 14:40
Location: Melbourne Australia
Contact:

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#27

Post by Adam Carr » 25 Aug 2008, 03:25

"Exposing fallacies, and providing accurate information, is why we have a successful AHF."

Fair enough, but why then have a policy banning Holocaust denial if you don't intend enforcing it?

Larso
Member
Posts: 1974
Joined: 27 Apr 2003, 03:18
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#28

Post by Larso » 25 Aug 2008, 05:41

This thread is one of the reasons I love this forum. A dubious claim was made and then diligent researchers carefully and systematically debunked it totally and exposed the original poster for what he was. I've been telling my friends all about it - well done to everyone involved and thank you!

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002, 23:35
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#29

Post by Marcus » 25 Aug 2008, 08:56

Adam Carr wrote:"Exposing fallacies, and providing accurate information, is why we have a successful AHF."

Fair enough, but why then have a policy banning Holocaust denial if you don't intend enforcing it?
As pointed out above the rules allow questioning individual aspects of the Holocaust (for example are the statements made by person X about the murders at location Y during time period Z correct), it however not permitted to question the fact that the Holocaust occured, by which I mean the deliberately murder of millions of people by the Nazi regime.
The Guidelines wrote:The essential aspects of the holocaust are well-known. They have been established through more than fifty years of court proceedings in a large number of countries. The evidence consists of eyewitness testimony from victims and bystanders, the confessions and admissions of perpetrators, photographs, an abundance of documents, physical evidence, forensic studies and judicial findings.
Legitimate questions may be raised about the veracity of individual witnesses or their motives, or isolated items of evidence, or matters of interpretation of policy, etc. These questions do not affect the fact that millions of persons were deliberately murdered, nor does it alter the cumulative and overwhelming evidence of who committed the murders.
/Marcus

User avatar
Adam Carr
Member
Posts: 2648
Joined: 30 Jan 2008, 14:40
Location: Melbourne Australia
Contact:

Re: Did 1.5 million really die in the Reinhardt camps?

#30

Post by Adam Carr » 25 Aug 2008, 09:43

I don't want to go on and on about this, I accept that you have the right to run this forum the way you like, and I agree this is a difficult issue for moderators of online forums, so this will be my last post on this topic. But I point out that the original post in this thread was a direct denial that Aktion Reinhard, the extermination of about 3 million Polish and other Jews in the camps in eastern Poland, ever took place. I'm sure you don't mean to say, Marcus, that it is forbidden to deny the reality of the Holocaust, but OK to deny the reality of half the Holocaust. But that is in effect what you are saying by allowing TankCommander's original post. There is a good argument for allowing Holocaust deniers the freedom to express their views, and there is a good argument for stopping them doing so. But there is no good argument for saying one thing and doing another, which is what allowing TankCommander's post amounts to. Regards AC

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”