"Crimes of the Wehrmacht" Exhibition

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#31

Post by POW » 16 Apr 2002, 21:11

medorjurgen wrote:Well, I wouldn't rely on the newspapers and TV to teach me history, but if you're interested you can get rather close to historical truth with a little research effort, in my opinion.
Oh, tell me how to do that. At the moment I try to get some information's of F.F.I troops who executed 80 German PoW's. I know place and date. The Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle (WUSt) documented war crimes but the files were cleared up after the war. Beside that the WUSt documented primary war crimes of regular troops. Partisans were criminals and not an army. There was no reason to document their crimes for court martial because after international law they could be executed. So it's difficult to find the information's I want.

In a forest near Halbe were found a great number of gasmasks and remains of corpses with buttons of German uniforms. At a place nearby another 20.000 German solders were found. They presume that the Russians massacred the German soldiers, took the equipment and left the useless gasmasks. The forest in Halbe is protected by the German gouvernment and civil guards. A research is not possible. I know you'll ask me for the sources of this. I did no digging there but a friend of mine mailed me that story some days ago. He said he took some photos of the place.
You should read the new catalogue. They really made an effort at being as objective as possible this time. Nothing sensationalist about it, on the contrary. It's so dry that it's almost boring.
I'll read the new catalogue. And if it's really dry stuff I can moisten it with a tasty beer. :)

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#32

Post by POW » 16 Apr 2002, 22:26

What the heck :x , dang it. This is now the third time I try to post a message because it failed bevore. Cause I have enough of typing now this is the very very short version.
Truth:
Image

Image

Relable source:
Guido Knopp and his documentary "Der Jahrhundertkrieg". Seems he isn't blessed with objectivity also.


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#33

Post by POW » 17 Apr 2002, 09:58

OK, let's try again.
Reliable sources
a) Historiographisches Fachbuch: Kennzeichen "J". Berlin (Ost) 1981, S. 185; H. Eschwege
b) Historiographische Filmdokumentation: Der Tod ist ein Meister aus Deutschland, Teil 3; Prof. Dr. Eberhard Jäkel, Direktor des Historischen Instituts der Universität Stuttgart, sowie eine Journalistin mit dem Pseudonym "Lea Rosh".

The first photo was used in a) and b) showing the deportation of Romanian Jews into ghettos and death-camps. The transport in open wagons is additionally proving the inhuman treatment. There is no doubt that the transports into concentration camps were inhuman. But why to fake a photo to prove that? Faked photos are proving nothing but are the "salt in the soup" for all deniers. The typical scenery of the main station in Hamburg is left out. The windows of the train at the left were retouched so that the double-decker-waggons, which did not exist in Romania (the alleged place were the photo was taken), can not be recognized. Beside that the photo seems to be multi-functional. Much smaller than the first photo in my previous message the photo is used in "Vertreibung: Zentner, Ch.(Hrsg.): Das Dritte Reich. Bd. 5. Hamburg o.J., S. 168". In that book the photo shows expulsion of the Germans in Czech.

more reliable sources:
ZDF late news, January 200: "Finally Sweden begins to manage its past. 146 Swedish soldiers served in the Waffen-SS but unfortunately were no judicial investigation against them until now".
A charge of SS soldiers in general isn't legal.

Der Jahrhundertkrieg (Bismarck); Guido Knopp. In this documentary was said following:
1) The Hood was no enemy for the Bismarck
2) Only the British had radar
3) The Bismarck was a perfect construction but the oar was its weak point
4) Lütjens directed with useless and long radio messages the pursuer to the Bismarck
5) The rescue of the surviving German seaman stopped because a German submarine was sighted
6) Lütjens was far too irresponsible
This information's are all wrong

etc., etc., etc.

I'm still convinced that it is not possible to get historical truth with a little research effort like Medorjurgen is claiming.

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#34

Post by Soviet » 17 Apr 2002, 11:15

Medorjurgen aka R.Mühlenkamp, the so called "Red Reverend" from portugal seems to be very safe about his own believes and knowledge. I have watched the content of his postings over a long time now. The structure and arguments (including the links) are always of the same type. I have never read anything positive about Germany from him, only criticism and ranting. His world view makes it impossible for him to percept things from both but different sides. He is an ideological narrow minded fellow, who won't change his own way of thinking.

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#35

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002, 11:49

Soviet wrote:Medorjurgen aka R.Mühlenkamp, the so called "Red Reverend" from portugal seems to be very safe about his own believes and knowledge. I have watched the content of his postings over a long time now. The structure and arguments (including the links) are always of the same type. I have never read anything positive about Germany from him, only criticism and ranting. His world view makes it impossible for him to percept things from both but different sides. He is an ideological narrow minded fellow, who won't change his own way of thinking.
Well, my dear friend, you seem to be one hell of a lousy observer. Otherwise you might have noticed that I'm German myself and very proud of it, and that my "criticism and ranting" relates not to Germany but to the National Socialist regime. You might also have noticed that I have no "beliefs" whatsoever - I just follow the evidence where it leads. A fellow who, like you, confuses discussion of the crimes of the National Socialist regime on a Third Reich Forum with "criticism and ranting" against Germany is either a somewhat short-sighted nationalist, or a fellow for whom Germany and National Socialism are one and the same thing, or both. Take your pick.

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#36

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002, 11:59

POW wrote:
medorjurgen wrote:Well, I wouldn't rely on the newspapers and TV to teach me history, but if you're interested you can get rather close to historical truth with a little research effort, in my opinion.
Oh, tell me how to do that. At the moment I try to get some information's of F.F.I troops who executed 80 German PoW's. I know place and date. The Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle (WUSt) documented war crimes but the files were cleared up after the war. Beside that the WUSt documented primary war crimes of regular troops. Partisans were criminals and not an army. There was no reason to document their crimes for court martial because after international law they could be executed. So it's difficult to find the information's I want.

In a forest near Halbe were found a great number of gasmasks and remains of corpses with buttons of German uniforms. At a place nearby another 20.000 German solders were found. They presume that the Russians massacred the German soldiers, took the equipment and left the useless gasmasks. The forest in Halbe is protected by the German gouvernment and civil guards. A research is not possible. I know you'll ask me for the sources of this. I did no digging there but a friend of mine mailed me that story some days ago. He said he took some photos of the place.
Very interesting. Looks like finding the truth is a little more difficult in regard to crimes against German crimes against German POWs and civilians than in regard to National Socialist crimes, because the former have not been the subject of as intensive criminal investigation and historical research as the latter (at least in regard to the genocide of the Jews) have been. Which means that you have chosen a comparatively dark zone of historiography to focus upon, one that I wish you the greatest success in and have already offered my assistance to lightening up.

As to Halbe, I have heard that there was one of the largest German military cemeteries of World War II there, but this is the first time I read that someone "presumes" the dead buried there to have been "massacred" by Soviet troops rather than killed in battle. Is there any eyewitness evidence to harden that presumption?
You should read the new catalogue. They really made an effort at being as objective as possible this time. Nothing sensationalist about it, on the contrary. It's so dry that it's almost boring. I'll read the new catalogue. And if it's really dry stuff I can moisten it with a tasty beer. :)
Please do so. You may arrive at the conclusion that it's the kind of documentation you would like to have in regard to the crimes of the Allied side.

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#37

Post by Soviet » 17 Apr 2002, 12:03

Well, my dear friend, you seem to be one hell of a lousy observer. Otherwise you might have noticed that I'm German myself and very proud of it, and that my "criticism and ranting" relates not to Germany but to the National Socialist regime. You might also have noticed that I have no "beliefs" whatsoever - I just follow the evidence where it leads. A fellow who, like you, confuses discussion of the crimes of the National Socialist regime on a Third Reich Forum with "criticism and ranting" against Germany is either a somewhat short-sighted nationalist, or a fellow for whom Germany and National Socialism are one and the same thing, or both. Take your pick.
The Red Reverend calls himself a follower of evidence, so i will correct him - the evidence that fits into his personal ideological mind. I'm not a german nationalist nor a true believer of nazism but the reverends permanent ranting against us is annoying me. Reverend, you are proud to be german ? Western or eastern german i might ask ? I have never seen anything out of your mouth which is in favor of Germany. Confuses ? You mean you confuse things you could not percept ? Seems to me that you are the real true believer here, Red Reverend.

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#38

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002, 12:19

I'm still convinced that it is not possible to get historical truth with a little research effort like Medorjurgen is claiming.
Sloppiness with photographs or retouching thereof - the latter of course being far more difficult to prove - are mistakes that should be avoided. Rather than be generous or creative in the absence of pertinent illustrations to make their books look more attractive, historians should do without such illustrations unless 100 % sure that they fit the respective caption.

The same goes for inaccurate data like those you pointed out. Still, I consider it a stretch to infer from such mistakes that the authors of the sources you refer to are consciously trying to sell denier-style untruths. Nothing to make me retract from my statement. After all, a little research effort also includes the critical eye and reasoning required to spot such gaffes and to assess the relevance thereof, doesn't it?

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#39

Post by Soviet » 17 Apr 2002, 12:32

You might also have noticed that I have no "beliefs" whatsoever - I just follow the evidence where it leads
This is exactly what all true believers say, like you are Red Reverend.

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#40

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002, 12:33

The Red Reverend calls himself a follower of evidence, so i will correct him - the evidence that fits into his personal ideological mind.
What is that "ideological mind" supposed to be about, my friend? I see you're hinting at Communism. Which again shows you to be one hell of a lousy observer.
I'm not a german nationalist nor a true believer of nazism but the reverends permanent ranting against us is annoying me. Reverend, you are proud to be german ? Western or eastern german i might ask ?
I thought they were one and the same by now. I was born and raised in Colombia, and my parents are from Essen.
I have never seen anything out of your mouth which is in favor of Germany.
Wrong, buddy, you have never read anything from me that is in favor of National Socialism. Big difference, at least to me. Take off your blindfold and have a look at these threads:

Interesting Revisionist Work
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... =166.topic

A German soldier
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumth ... 3772.topic

(on the old forum)

The Forgotten Cities
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 27dd16bf0c

(on this forum)
Confuses ? You mean you confuse things you could not percept ? Seems to me that you are the real true believer here, Red Reverend.
Reading and observing before shooting off nonsense is the best way to avoid making a fool out of yourself – a well-meaning piece of advice that I hope you will follow.

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#41

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002, 12:48

You might also have noticed that I have no "beliefs" whatsoever - I just follow the evidence where it leads

This is exactly what all true believers say
I have noticed that. But in my case, it is honest and supported by facts, as a considerable number of fellow posters on this forum are able to confirm.
like you are Red Reverend.
I suggest you have a look at this little test which I was the first on this forum to point out:

http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi/museum1.cgi

That should bring rest to your poor confused soul. I would like to know your score, by the way.

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#42

Post by Soviet » 17 Apr 2002, 12:53

What is that "ideological mind" supposed to be about, my friend? I see you're hinting at Communism. Which again shows you to be one hell of a lousy observer.
Do you want to deny it, Red Reverend ? Don't be more ridiculous then you actually are.
I was born and raised in Colombia, and my parents are from Essen.
In Colombia ? So that explains your believes. No more questions.
Wrong, buddy, you have never read anything from me that is in favor of National Socialism. Big difference, at least to me. Take off your blindfold and have a look at these threads:
I'm not blindfolded because i have percept your manipulating intentions Red Reverend. You try to produce something that we might call collective debt to suppress german self-confidence and national pride, a method which is not new to those who have recognized the always same boring techniques of left fellowers like you are without any doubt for me.
Reading and observing before shooting off nonsense is the best way to avoid making a fool out of yourself – a well-meaning piece of advice that I hope you will follow.
The same goes with more importance to you Red Reverend. I strongly suggest to free you singleminded spirit, true believer.
Last edited by Soviet on 17 Apr 2002, 12:59, edited 2 times in total.

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#43

Post by Soviet » 17 Apr 2002, 12:56

I have noticed that. But in my case, it is honest and supported by facts, as a considerable number of fellow posters on this forum are able to confirm.
Huh, you have noticed that ? Thats indeed a great achievement for a ideological turtle like you are.
But in my case, it is honest and supported by facts, as a considerable number of fellow posters on this forum are able to confirm
This is again what all true believers say. Nothing new to prove your ideological "innocence" Red Reverend.

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#44

Post by POW » 17 Apr 2002, 13:04

medorjurgen wrote:Sloppiness with photographs or retouching thereof - the latter of course being far more difficult to prove - are mistakes that should be avoided. Rather than be generous or creative in the absence of pertinent illustrations to make their books look more attractive, historians should do without such illustrations unless 100 % sure that they fit the respective caption.

The same goes for inaccurate data like those you pointed out. Still, I consider it a stretch to infer from such mistakes that the authors of the sources you refer to are consciously trying to sell denier-style untruths. Nothing to make me retract from my statement. After all, a little research effort also includes the critical eye and reasoning required to spot such gaffes and to assess the relevance thereof, doesn't it?
I agree to you to 99%. Some inaccurate datas in the mass-medias don't try to sell denier-style untruth. But to confirm the prejudices of the audience with lies is not OK. Beside that I would like Guido Knopp much more if he had given me an answer to the question: Why did the British navy stopped to rescue the survivors of the Bismark? Or is it not possible to find an answer to that question because the western archives are sometimes as closed than their counterpart in Russia?

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#45

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002, 13:06

Quote:
What is that "ideological mind" supposed to be about, my friend? I see you're hinting at Communism. Which again shows you to be one hell of a lousy observer.

Do you want to deny it, Red Reverend ? Don't be more ridiculous then you actually are.
That’s not exactly an argument. You’re digging your own grave, buddy, in case you haven’t noticed.
Quote:
I was born and raised in Colombia, and my parents are from Essen.

In Colombia ? So that explains your believes. No more questions.
I see that my friend is not interested in reasonable discussion but merely wants to insult me. What do you know about Colombia, smart-ass?
Quote:
Wrong, buddy, you have never read anything from me that is in favor of National Socialism. Big difference, at least to me. Take off your blindfold and have a look at these threads:

I'm not blindfolded because i have percept your manipulating intentions Red Reverend.
I guess by now I’m no longer the only one who is laughing out loud at your “percepts”…
You try to produce something that we might call collective debt to suppress german self-confidence and national pride, a method which is not new to those who have real knowledge.
... or at your “real knowledge”, for that matter. You didn’t even bother to look up the links I pointed you too, did you?
Quote:
Reading and observing before shooting off nonsense is the best way to avoid making a fool out of yourself – a well-meaning piece of advice that I hope you will follow.

The same goes with more importance to you Red Reverend.
The difference being that my recommendation has a basis and yours has none.
I strongly suggest to free you singleminded spirit, true believer.
You’re crashing into an open door, buddy. I’m not so sure about you, however. You seem to be stubbornly blind to everything other than what you badly want to believe in. How about looking up the links I pointed you to and humbly acknowledging that you misjudged me and jumped to sweeping conclusions supported by wishful thinking and insufficient observation? I won’t hold it against you, I promise.
Last edited by Roberto on 17 Apr 2002, 13:17, edited 1 time in total.

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