"Crimes of the Wehrmacht" Exhibition

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002 12:11

Soviet wrote:
I have noticed that. But in my case, it is honest and supported by facts, as a considerable number of fellow posters on this forum are able to confirm.

Huh, you have noticed that ? Thats indeed a great achievement for a ideological turtle like you are.
Is that supposed to be an argument, or is it just an insult signalling that my opponent has run out of arguments?
But in my case, it is honest and supported by facts, as a considerable number of fellow posters on this forum are able to confirm.

This is again what all true believers say. Nothing new to prove your ideological "innocence" Red Reverend.
Well, where I come from, it's not innocence but guilt that has to be proven. And I don't see you having provided anything substantial by way of evidence.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002 12:23

POW wrote:
I agree to you to 99%. Some inaccurate datas in the mass-medias don't try to sell denier-style untruth. But to confirm the prejudices of the audience with lies is not OK.
Certainly not. But mass-media are not a source I would rely on anyway.
Beside that I would like Guido Knopp much more if he had given me an answer to the question: Why did the British navy stopped to rescue the survivors of the Bismark?
Why, did you ask him? Tell us more about it.
Or is it not possible to find an answer to that question because the western archives are sometimes as closed than their counterpart in Russia?
That's altogether possible. The Russian archives don't seem to be all that closed, however.

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re

Post by tonyh » 17 Apr 2002 15:02

>> If you like to believe in sinister conspiracies, maybe so. To me it's just a proof of sloppiness<<

Who mentioned conspiracies? That’s your word Roberto, not mine. And you know its silly to mention it. And besides, you don’t think that people or groups conspire? If you want to see it as sloppiness then off you go. That itself is enough to bring the exhibition into disrepute. The fact that the wrong photo’s were slipped in is evidence of the organisers lack of professionalism and their eagerness to have yet another atrocity photo for their show. It certainly does not indicate objectivity.

>> Not that I have any particular sympathy for Israeli policies, but why this fixation with Israel?<<

Huh……..wha? Which fixation with Israel? The fact that I mentioned Israel is because it’s the most recent example of atrocity I have at the moment. I see no “fixation with Israel” in what I’ve written. Perhaps this is another one of your wonderful “observations” like Michael Mill’s supposed “anti-Semitism”, because he doesn’t agree with what you say. Or is it just a ‘round about way of trying to call me an “anti-Semite” too?

Tony

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Re: re

Post by Davey Boy » 17 Apr 2002 15:30

Stop whining people. If you're upset with Roberto's position then show some evidence to counter his arguments. Comments like "you're a communist and you hate Germans" just show how little you have to offer.

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Post by POW » 17 Apr 2002 16:34

Hi Medorjurgen,
seems that "Soviet" got company. Cya elsewhere to continue our correspondence.
Regards,
POW

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Re: re

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002 16:49

tonyh wrote:>> If you like to believe in sinister conspiracies, maybe so. To me it's just a proof of sloppiness<<
Who mentioned conspiracies? That’s your word Roberto, not mine.
Well, your contentions sounded like a hint at some kind of "conspiracy".
And you know its silly to mention it.
It's silly to hint at conspiracies without evidence, for sure.
And besides, you don’t think that people or groups conspire?
They sure do on occasion, but in this case it's rather unlikely. Besides, there's no evidence in this direction.
If you want to see it as sloppiness then off you go. That itself is enough to bring the exhibition into disrepute.
It sure is. Did I say anything else?
The fact that the wrong photo’s were slipped in is evidence of the organisers lack of professionalism and their eagerness to have yet another atrocity photo for their show. It certainly does not indicate objectivity.
That's one of the reasons why the original exhibition was closed down, as I pointed out. Could it be that you're crashing into an open door?
>> Not that I have any particular sympathy for Israeli policies, but why this fixation with Israel?<<

Huh……..wha? Which fixation with Israel? The fact that I mentioned Israel is because it’s the most recent example of atrocity I have at the moment.


If it's only that, fine.
I see no “fixation with Israel” in what I’ve written.
I didn't expect anything else.
Perhaps this is another one of your wonderful “observations” like Michael Mill’s supposed “anti-Semitism”, because he doesn’t agree with what you say.
Well, your reaction is just as silly as accusing me of calling Mills an anti-Semite just because he doesn't agree with me.
Or is it just a ‘round about way of trying to call me an “anti-Semite” too?
No, my friend, it's just that evil Israel and those slimy Jews show up on your plate rather often. I may be wrong, but this is the impression conveyed to me by a number of your postings on the old forum.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002 16:53

POW wrote:Hi Medorjurgen,
seems that "Soviet" got company. Cya elsewhere to continue our correspondence.
Regards,
POW
POW,

Good idea. Feel free to open a thread on the Bismarck and your questions to Knopp. I'm always open to learning something new.

Cheers,

Roberto

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Post by tonyh » 17 Apr 2002 17:29

1. I never mentioned consipracies. You brought that up. My post doesn't even hint at conspiracy.

2. I have never mentioned Israel or the Jews in such contexts. And whats more you know that.

Tony

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Re: re

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002 17:41

tonyh wrote:1. I never mentioned consipracies. You brought that up. My post doesn't even hint at conspiracy.
If so, express yourself more clearly.
2. I have never mentioned Israel or the Jews in such contexts. And whats more you know that.
My memory isn't all that bad, and I remember good old Tony having rambled about Wiesel and Lipstadt and whether the Israelis would ever apologize for "all the Palestinians they have killed over the years".

Nothing wrong with that, it justs suggests a preoccupation with Jewish/Israeli affairs that in my opinion is somewhat out of proportion to their importance.

Which opinion may in turn be related to the fact that I don't feel exposed to the teachings of Jewish scholars where I live and that I grew up in a country where violence makes the touted Israeli-Palestinian conflict look peaceful by comparison.

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Re: yes -wehermacht atrocities is nothing but NVKD forgeries

Post by alsaco » 17 Apr 2002 21:17

[quote="wildboar"]

moreover 40,000/(forty thousand ) soldiers of wehrmacht were punished for causing harm to civilians on OSTFRONT.... wehrmacht had strict rules and disipline which clearly stated that any harm caused to civilian by its member was not allowed and any member indulging in it was punished.


To Wildboar from india
There is a big difference between theory and practice. Rules set for german soldiers were firm and generally followed. But german troops had also a strong habit to obey orders received, without any possibility to discuss.
If orders were to encircle a village, to protect some local militia while specialists killed partizans and occasionally jews, they were executed. And this could easily permit some involvment of WH or WL in facts near to crime.
Moreover some units in the Wehrmacht enlisted non-germans, having personal griefs against raided villages, or more simply considering war in a primitive way.
In the south west of France, people of an indian legion coming from nowhere in german uniform have left some memories, as have Croats and Vlassov Russians. They needed no NKVD, nor Gestapo, help to commit Killings and Thefths while soliers in the Wehrmacht.

War is war, and soldiers are no saints. Man in group accepts easily things he would refuse if he had to take personal responsability.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002 21:41

alsaco wrote:
wildboar wrote:
moreover 40,000/(forty thousand ) soldiers of wehrmacht were punished for causing harm to civilians on OSTFRONT.... wehrmacht had strict rules and disipline which clearly stated that any harm caused to civilian by its member was not allowed and any member indulging in it was punished.
I wonder where wildboar got that figure from. Besides, considering the Führer’s directive that prosecution of Wehrmacht crimes against the civilian population was not compulsory, the application of the Wehrmacht’s “strict rules and disipline” in this respect is likely to have been the exception rather than the rule.
TRANSLATION OFDOCUMENT 886-PS
Source: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Vol. III. USGPO, Washington, 1946, p.637-639
Fuehrer Decree, 13 May 1941, on Regulation of Conduct of
Troops in District "Barbarossa" and Handling of Opposition.
SECRET
The Fuehrer and Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces
Enclosure to 32/ 41 g. Kdos.Chefs. WR.
1st copy.
Fuehrer headquarters, 13 May 1941
[Initialed] "J 10/ 5"
TOP SECRET
Decree for the conduct of courts-martial in the district "BARBAROSSA" and for special measures of the troop [written in ink]
The armed forces court-martial serves primarily the purpose of maintaining discipline.
The great expanse of the Eastern theatre of operations, the kind of warfare necessitated on that account, and the peculiarity of the opponent present tasks to the armed forces courts-martial which they can accomplish during the course of the war and until the first pacification of the conquered territory-being short staffed-only if the court-martial is limited to its main task.
This is only possible if the troop itself defends itself ruthlessly against any threat by the enemy civil population.
Accordingly, the following is decreed for the territory "Barbarossa" (theater of operation, rear army area and area of the political administration):
Treatment of punishable offenses of enemy civilians
1. Punishable offenses committed by enemy civilians do not, until further notice, come any more under the jurisdiction of the courts-martial and the summary courts-martial.
2. Guerillas are to be killed ruthlessly by the troops in battle or during pursuit.
3. Also all other attacks of enemy civilians against the Wehrmacht, its members and employees are to be fought by the troops at the place of the attack with the most extreme means until annihilation of the attacker.
4. In cases where measures of this kind were neglected or not immediately possible, elements suspected of offense will be brought at once before an officer. He decides whether they are to be shot.
Against villages from which the Wehrmacht was insidiously and maliciously attacked, collective punitive measures by force will be carried out immediately under command of an officer with the rank of at least a battalion commander, if the circumstances do not permit an immediate identification of individual perpetrators.
5. It is expressly prohibited to hold suspected perpetrators in order to transfer them to the courts upon reinstitution of their jurisdiction over civilians.
6. The commanders in chief of the army groups can, in conjunction with the competent commanders of the air force and the navy, restore the Wehrmacht jurisdiction over civilians in districts which are sufficiently pacified.
For the area of the political administration this decree is issued through the chief of the high command of the Wehrmacht [marginal ink correction inked out: C-n-C of army in agreement with C-i-C of other branches.]
II
Treatment of punishable offenses of members of the Wehrmacht and its employees against the native population
1. For offenses committed by members of the Wehrmacht and its employees against enemy civilians, prosecution is not compulsory, not even if the offense is at the same time a military crime or violation.
2. While judging offenses of this kind, it should be considered in every case, that the breakdown in 1918, the time of suffering of the German people after that, and the numerous blood sacrifices of the movement in the battle against national socialism were decidedly due to the Bolshevist influence, and that no German has forgotten this.

3. The judge examines therefore whether in such cases disciplinary action is justified or whether it is necessary to take legal steps. The judge orders the prosecution of offenses against civilians through court-martial only if it is considered necessary for the maintenance of discipline or the security of the troops. This applies, for instance, to cases of serious offenses which are based on sexual acts without restraint, which derive from a criminal tendency, or which are a sign that the troop threatens to mutiny. The punishable offenses of destroying senselessly quarters as well as supplies or other captured goods to the disadvantage of the own troop should, as a rule, be judged as more leniently.
The order of the inquiry proceedings requires in every individual case the signature of the judge.
Extreme care must be exercised when judging the authenticity of the statements of enemy civilians.
II
Responsibility of the troop commanders
The troop commanders are, within the sphere of their competence, personally responsible for the following :
1. that all officers of the units subordinated to them are very thoroughly and promptly instructed about the fundamentals of I,
2. that their legal advisors be promptly informed about these instructions and about the verbal statements with which the po-litical intentions of the leadership had been explained to the commanders-in-chief,
3. that only such sentences will be confirmed which are in accord with the political intentions of the leadership.
IV
Protection of secret
After end of camouflage the decree is to be considered only as secret.
For the chief of the high command of the Wehrmacht-
Signed : KEITEL
Note [in pencil] : This should, if possible, not be passed on 1 June 41.
Certified


Source of quote:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/USSR5.htm

Emphasis is mine.

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Post by tonyh » 18 Apr 2002 11:53

>>If so, express yourself more clearly.<<

I did. Nobody else seemed to have any problem with what I said or how I said it except you, who read things that weren't actually there. The problem is yours.

>>...Wiesel and Lipstadt<<

So........? Can I not be critical of anyone? I happen to think that the above people are second rate oppertunists and have said so in the past. Only YOU interpret this as "slimy Jews". The problem again is yours.

>>...whether the Israelis would ever apologize for "all the Palestinians they have killed over the years".<<

And where's the problem in this? Can one not be critical of Israel? Are they beyond the standards of every other Country? Only YOU interpret this as "evil Israel".
Your seeing things that just aren't there Roberto. Put your glasses on. Your making a fool of yourself.

Tony

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Post by Roberto » 18 Apr 2002 13:11

Your making a fool of yourself.
I don’t think so, Tony. The fool is the poet who keeps trying to amend his verse and only makes it worse – my good friend Tony, in this case.

Another thing: If you quote me, please quote me right. I wrote the following:

My memory isn't all that bad, and I remember good old Tony having rambled about Wiesel and Lipstadt and whether the Israelis would ever apologize for "all the Palestinians they have killed over the years".

Nothing wrong with that, it just suggests a preoccupation with Jewish/Israeli affairs that in my opinion is somewhat out of proportion to their importance.

Which opinion may in turn be related to the fact that I don't feel exposed to the teachings of Jewish scholars where I live and that I grew up in a country where violence makes the touted Israeli-Palestinian conflict look peaceful by comparison.


Translation: While I don’t mind your criticizing whoever you like, I think you are overemphasizing people and events that I consider secondary, which suggests a preoccupation with them that I consider out of proportion to their significance.

Got it now?

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Post by tonyh » 18 Apr 2002 16:27

I have amended NOTHING. Only tried to make something clearer to some unfortunate who sees what he wants to see. As I said before nobody else seemed to have any problem with what I said or how I said it except you, who read things that weren't actually there. The problem remains yours.

It's a problem I don't undestand..........

"He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts"

>>Another thing: If you quote me, please quote me right.<<

This is something you could try yourself. A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I'll leave you with the last word Roberto, cause you thrive on it and I've wasted enough time on you.

Tony

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Post by Roberto » 18 Apr 2002 17:28

I'll leave you with the last word Roberto, cause you thrive on it and I've wasted enough time on you.
Thanks, Tony, but I'll be generous this time and let the audience enjoy your famous last words uncommented.

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