The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by David Thompson » 02 Sep 2008 14:42

Just as a general observation, historians usually avoid reasoning backwards from assumptions based on the present, as Saggy has done here and in the Auschwitz thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=143240 . That's because the method is . . . well, backwards. The perils of the approach are obvious -- it might lead someone to conclude that the battle of Gettysburg was a hoax because the present terrain features of the land don't correspond with the 1863 descriptions, so the 1863 descriptions must be bogus.

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by Denying-History » 22 Apr 2016 02:19

There Is no Window in this gas chamber.... Unless you mean the Delousing chamber which was also used as a Undressing room.

Image

Here is a photograph of the so called "Window" in the large Homicidal gas chamber... Deniers don't tend to go inside the chambers. This depends if your talking in the sense of denial like form Holohoax101.org
This is a picture of the 'gas chamber' at Majdanek, and yes, that is an unbarred window.

Image

The Majdanek hoax gas chamber is a fumigation room, where Zyklon, an insecticide used all over Europe to kill lice to prevent the spread Majdanek Gas Chamber Window of typhus, was used to delouse clothing. A building containing several fumigation rooms still exists at Auschwitz, complete with the special machinery used to generate, distribute, and exhaust the gas produced by Zyklon. These rooms at Auschwitz are never shown to visitors. The fumigation rooms became the 'homicidal gas chambers' of the holohoax.
Its not a window... Check for your self here.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... r_Pano.jpg

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by uberjude » 25 Apr 2016 15:37

excellent post--and an excellent metaphor for the methodology of Holocaust Denial. You have somebody claiming there is a window, and what is their proof? A shot from the side which shows what seems to be a window, but, when you see the real thing, clearly isn't. So much of denial involves creating these kinds of "facts" which seem compelling only if you don't ever look at the big picture.

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by michael mills » 06 May 2016 00:53

The crucial point is that the Lublin Concentration Camp, unofficially dubbed "Maidanek" because it was situated in the suburb of Majdan Tatarski, never became an extermination centre in the sense that the Birkenau camp did, ie it was never a place to which persons were sent specifically for the purpose of killing them.

That is shown by the role it played in 1942-43 in the context of the extermination of the Jews of the Generalgouvernement perpetrated under the command of the SSPF-Lublin Odilo Globocnik. The minority of Jews selected for labour were sent to Maidanek (which, like Birkenau, originated as a POW camp for Red Army personnel), while the majority were sent to the real extermination centres at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. The primary function of the Maidanek camp was as a processing centre for the property seized from the Jews killed at the three extermination camps; it was that processing function that had the official designation of "Aktion-Reinhardt", according to the post-war testimony of Hoess.

An example is given by the deportation of Jews from Bialystok, where the selection of Jews fit for labour was carried out at the place of origin rather than at the destination. Those Jews selected for labour for loaded into separate freight-cars from those into which the Jews selected for extermination were loaded; at a certain point the train was divided, and the cars carrying the Jews selected for labour were sent to Lublin while the rest of the train proceeded to Treblinka. If the camp at Lublin had been an extermination centre, then there would have been no need for that separation process to have been carried out.

As to the question of whether the room shown in the photographs was or was not used as a homicidal gas chamber, that is a moot point that has never been satisfactorily resolved. The problem is that the image of Maidanek as an extermination centre was created by Soviet propaganda immediately after its capture by the Red Army in July 1944, an image that has persisted even after careful research has shown that propaganda to be largely false.

The blue staining on the walls of the room shown in the photographs is actually more consistent with its use for the disinfestation of clothing, bedding and other materials than for homicidal gassing. Such staining results when the interior walls are exposed to cyanide-saturated air for a continuous prolonged period, several hours, which is typical of the disinfestation process, since insects such as lice require a long period of exposure to cyanide in order to kill them. By contrast, humans can be killed by cyanide in just a few minutes, and the walls of a chamber being used for homicidal gassing were typically exposed to the cyanide-laden air for a maximum of 30 minutes before the air was extracted to allow removal of the bodies of the victims. Thus, even repeated use of a chamber for homicidal gassing did not typically result in the blue staining seen in the photographs.

Despite the fact that there is unlikely to have been organised extermination of Jews and others at the Lublin Concentration Camp in the same way as at the three Globocnik camps and at Birkenau, there was a huge massacre of the Jewish inmates in November 1943, ordered by Himmler as he feared that with the advance of the Red Army there might be a prisoner uprising on the model of what had already occurred at Treblinka and Sobibor. It is noteworthy that the massacre was perpetrated by mass shooting, with executioners brought in from outside; that fact suggests that there was no extermination machinery in place at the Lublin Concentration Camp.

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by Denying-History » 16 May 2016 22:18

michael mills wrote:The crucial point is that the Lublin Concentration Camp, unofficially dubbed "Maidanek" because it was situated in the suburb of Majdan Tatarski, never became an extermination centre in the sense that the Birkenau camp did, ie it was never a place to which persons were sent specifically for the purpose of killing them.

That is shown by the role it played in 1942-43 in the context of the extermination of the Jews of the Generalgouvernement perpetrated under the command of the SSPF-Lublin Odilo Globocnik. The minority of Jews selected for labour were sent to Maidanek (which, like Birkenau, originated as a POW camp for Red Army personnel), while the majority were sent to the real extermination centres at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. The primary function of the Maidanek camp was as a processing centre for the property seized from the Jews killed at the three extermination camps; it was that processing function that had the official designation of "Aktion-Reinhardt", according to the post-war testimony of Hoess.

An example is given by the deportation of Jews from Bialystok, where the selection of Jews fit for labour was carried out at the place of origin rather than at the destination. Those Jews selected for labour for loaded into separate freight-cars from those into which the Jews selected for extermination were loaded; at a certain point the train was divided, and the cars carrying the Jews selected for labour were sent to Lublin while the rest of the train proceeded to Treblinka. If the camp at Lublin had been an extermination centre, then there would have been no need for that separation process to have been carried out.

As to the question of whether the room shown in the photographs was or was not used as a homicidal gas chamber, that is a moot point that has never been satisfactorily resolved. The problem is that the image of Maidanek as an extermination centre was created by Soviet propaganda immediately after its capture by the Red Army in July 1944, an image that has persisted even after careful research has shown that propaganda to be largely false.

The blue staining on the walls of the room shown in the photographs is actually more consistent with its use for the disinfestation of clothing, bedding and other materials than for homicidal gassing. Such staining results when the interior walls are exposed to cyanide-saturated air for a continuous prolonged period, several hours, which is typical of the disinfestation process, since insects such as lice require a long period of exposure to cyanide in order to kill them. By contrast, humans can be killed by cyanide in just a few minutes, and the walls of a chamber being used for homicidal gassing were typically exposed to the cyanide-laden air for a maximum of 30 minutes before the air was extracted to allow removal of the bodies of the victims. Thus, even repeated use of a chamber for homicidal gassing did not typically result in the blue staining seen in the photographs.

Despite the fact that there is unlikely to have been organised extermination of Jews and others at the Lublin Concentration Camp in the same way as at the three Globocnik camps and at Birkenau, there was a huge massacre of the Jewish inmates in November 1943, ordered by Himmler as he feared that with the advance of the Red Army there might be a prisoner uprising on the model of what had already occurred at Treblinka and Sobibor. It is noteworthy that the massacre was perpetrated by mass shooting, with executioners brought in from outside; that fact suggests that there was no extermination machinery in place at the Lublin Concentration Camp.
This is very much debatable, as the gas chamber though officially built to be delousing chambers were in that of part way altered. I would say it stayed an extermination camp but operated closer to that of Maly Trostenets into its later life. After the shut down of the gassing program in 43 that is.

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 05 Jul 2016 15:04

Denying-History wrote:There Is no Window in this gas chamber.... Unless you mean the Delousing chamber which was also used as a Undressing room.

Image

Here is a photograph of the so called "Window" in the large Homicidal gas chamber... Deniers don't tend to go inside the chambers. This depends if your talking in the sense of denial like form Holohoax101.org

[...]

Its not a window... Check for your self here.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... r_Pano.jpg

Yes, this error about Chamber 3's "window" [recte: lamp in a recess] has been pointed out before.

But no one [aside from people with special permission from the museum] has been able to get into Chambers 1 or 3 for many years.

The northern door on Chamber 3 is now permanently padlocked and the southern entrances to 1 & 3 have had chest-height glass panels guarding them since c.2008. Prior to that there were waist-height wooden gates blocking all entrances to Chambers 1, 2 & 3 from at least 1986, perhaps many years before that.

Any deniers who took close-up photos of features in Chambers 1-3 during the early 90s, must have climbed over the gates to do so.

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by David Thompson » 05 Jul 2016 17:34

The Black Rabbit of Inlé -- No one ever said that a "denier" took the photograph. See the initial post of this thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1244626

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by michael mills » 06 Jul 2016 09:08

This what the USHMM has to say about the function of the Lublin Concentration Camp, aka Majdanek.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10005190
In spring 1942, the Germans began to implement the so-called Final Solution in the Generalgouvernement within the framework of Operation Reinhard. From transports headed for the killing centers the SS diverted to Majdanek prisoners capable of work that they had selected, often while the train stood at the Lublin central train station. Between March 29 and mid-June 1942, some 7,000 Slovak Jews were diverted from Auschwitz and Belzec to Majdanek. The SS also selected Jews for labor from transports of German, Austrian, and Czech Jews destined for the camp ghettos in Izbica and Piaski and the Sobibor killing center.

By the summer of 1942, the SS and police had taken two thousand Czech Jews off trains transporting them from Theresienstadt to the Lublin District, and sent them to Majdanek as forced laborers. During the summer of 1942 deportations from the Warsaw ghetto to the Treblinka killing center, approximately 10,000 Jews, most of them in their twenties and thirties, were also diverted to Lublin as forced laborers; the SS sent an undetermined number of them to Majdanek.

As the Belzec killing center was closing down in autumn 1942, around 25,000 Jews who might have been destined for that killing center were sent to Majdanek. It is not clear whether the Germans killed these Jews immediately at Majdanek or whether they registered them as prisoners. If not killed upon arrival, virtually all of these Jews died or were killed over the next six months.

After the Germans destroyed the Warsaw ghetto in spring 1943, SS and police officials deported between 18,000 and 22,000 survivors of the uprising, including women and children, to Majdanek as forced laborers, along with the equipment of some of the Warsaw ghetto workshops. The SS intended that these prisoners would work for the benefit of a new SS-owned labor deployment concern, East Industries, Inc. (Ostindustrie, GmbH). The surviving documentation is insufficient to determine whether and how many of the Jewish survivors of the Warsaw ghetto were killed upon arrival at Majdanek. As many as 3,000 may eventually have been transferred to the Budzyn forced labor camp.

In the winter of 1941-1942, camp authorities began to use Zyklon B gas to murder prisoners too weak to work in a makeshift gas chamber. Mass murder operations using poison gas began at Majdanek in October 1942 and continued until the end of 1943. There appear to have been three gas chambers at Majdanek; at least two were shower rooms reconfigured for use of Zyklon B gas. At least one of these two was used to kill human beings. Some sources refer to a third gas chamber, which reportedly used carbon monoxide gas as a means of murder.

Majdanek also served another key Operation Reinhard function; it contained storage facilities for clothing and personal items stolen from the Jews before their deaths in the Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka II killing centers. Prisoners from Majdanek were also deployed at the large “Clothing Depot” (Bekleidungslager) located in Lublin city.
The above description shows that KL-Lublin was primarily a place of forced labour, rather than a place where Jews were sent for the specific purpose of killing them, in the manner of the killing centres at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka.

Note that the USHMM does not claim that Jews were definitely sent to that camp for the express purpose of killing them, nor that Jews were killed on arrival, as they were at the real killing centres. All it can say is that may have happened, but it is equally possible that the Jews sent to KL-Lublin had all been selected for forced labour, and were only killed when they became too sick or weak to go on working.

That would mean that any homicidal gassings carried out at KL-Lublin were in the context of Sonderbehandlung-14f13, the "euthanasia" of sick prisoners, rather than in the context of an extermination program targeted at Jews. That is because prisoners of any ethnicity could fall victim to Sonderbehandlung-14f13, not only Jews or Gypsies.

Note also that the USHMM is not certain exactly which buildings were used for homicidal gassing, or indeed how many buildings were so used. It states that two shower rooms were reconfigured for the use of Zyklon-B, but is uncertain whether both of them were used for homicidal gassings as opposed to the normal delousing of clothing and other items.

It seems to me most likely that the two shower rooms were converted for the purpose of delousing with Zyklon-B, which would be consistent with the function of KL-Lublin as a place for processing the vast amount of clothing and other possessions confiscated from the Jews killed at the three extermination camps under Globocnik's command. It is possible that one or both of them were also used at times for the killing of prisoners who had become too weak to be used for labour.

The USHMM is also uncertain as to whether there was a third building used for homicidal gassing with carbon monoxide. Given that when Sonderbehandlung-14f13 was introduced to the concentration camps in the middle of 1941, the killing methodology was the same as that used in the T-4 adult "euthanasia" program, ie gassing with chemically pure carbon monoxide contained in canisters, and was overseen by T-4 staff. Accordingly, when Sonderbehandlung-14f13 was introduced to KL-Lublin, it is highly likely that it was carried out with carbon monoxide, which would support the claim of there having been a building used for homicidal gassings with carbon monoxide, in addition to the two shower buildings that were converted to the use of Zyklon-B, most probably for delousing purposes.

It has to be said that the claim that homicidal gassings took place in one or both of the shower rooms converted to the use of Zyklon-B rests on rather inconclusive evidence. The presence of blue staining on the interior walls of those rooms does show that they were exposed to hydrogen cyanide gas for extended periods, but that is not conclusive proof that the exposure took place in the context of a homicidal procedure; such exposure for extended periods is more consistent with a normal delousing procedure than homicidal gassing, for the reasons I stated in my previous message.

As for the room shown in the photo posted at the beginning of this thread, all that can be said for certain is that its walls were exposed to hydrogen cyanide gas for extended periods. It is most likely that most or perhaps all of that exposure occurred during normal delousing operations; it remains uncertain whether homicidal gassings were carried out in that room.

In conclusion, although it is certain that some tens of thousands of Jews died at KL-Lublin, it was not because they had been sent to that camp for the specific purpose of extermination. Rather, they had been selected for labour, and died or were killed when they had become too sick or weak to continue to be used for labour. In other words, the mortality of Jews at KL-Lublin was more similar to that at the regular concentration camps such as Dachau and Buchenwald rather than that at the real extermination centres such as Treblinka.

Furthermore, a large proportion of the tens of thousands of Jews who perished at KL-Lublin consisted of victims of the Operation Erntefest massacres in November 1943, which had been ordered by Himmler because he feared an uprising of prisoners similar to what had occurred in the Warsaw Ghetto and other ghettos, as well as at Treblinka and Sobibor.

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 06 Jul 2016 10:54

David Thompson wrote:The Black Rabbit of Inlé -- No one ever said that a "denier" took the photograph. See the initial post of this thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1244626
I was well aware of that; I was responding to Denying-History's comment:
Deniers don't tend to go inside the chambers.
By pointing out that no-one—not just "deniers"—has been able to get into the Majdanek gas chambers 1-3 for several decades, unless they jumped the gates, which clearly some "deniers" did: Photos 11 - 14

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by michael mills » 06 Jul 2016 14:16

Here is a link to a map of KL-Lublin:

http://www.theholocaustexplained.org/pu ... xO_web.jpg

It shows that the buildings identified as gas chambers are situated at the opposite end of the camp to the crematorium, which suggests that the camp was not designed for extermination, otherwise the gas chambers and the crematorium would have been located closer together, to facilitate disposal of the corpses of the victims.

The buildings identified as gas chambers appear to be located close to the entrance to the camp, which suggests that they were designed as a reception centre for incoming prisoners, with disinfestation facilities consisting of showers and delousing chambers for the prisoners' clothing.

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by michael mills » 06 Jul 2016 14:43

Here is a link to a sketch-plan of one of the delousing barracks at KL-Lublin:

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/SC/inconabr_2_f ... kzmajd.gif

The layout is that of a normal delousing facility, with in the centre a shower room for washing the incoming prisoners, and to the right three chambers for delousing the prisoners' clothing. There is a boiler room attached to the three chambers, which suggests that the facility was originally designed for delousing with steam, prior to the introduction of the more effective disinfestation methodology using Zyklon-B.

The notations on the sketch-plan suggest that the three delousing chambers were also used homicidally, which is plausible.

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by KZ-Dachau » 31 Jul 2016 11:41

michael mills wrote:Here is a link to a sketch-plan of one of the delousing barracks at KL-Lublin:

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/SC/inconabr_2_f ... kzmajd.gif

The layout is that of a normal delousing facility, with in the centre a shower room for washing the incoming prisoners, and to the right three chambers for delousing the prisoners' clothing. There is a boiler room attached to the three chambers, which suggests that the facility was originally designed for delousing with steam, prior to the introduction of the more effective disinfestation methodology using Zyklon-B.

The notations on the sketch-plan suggest that the three delousing chambers were also used homicidally, which is plausible.
The major issue is that the building at the end is not a delousing installation. One room in 1943 was transferred over into a delousing chamber and took over the room which used to be labeled as an "experimental gas chamber". Around the end of B&D II the Soviets whom liberated the camp found 5 Carbon monoxide bottle. These bottles were provided by Action T4 and lasted till Liberation in 1944.

We know these also were filled with CO due to the test which the soviets had done:
The contents of the canisters were tested for the presence of prussic acid by the reaction of the formation of Prussian blue with the aid of benzidino-acinate indicator paper and picric sodium. Samples were taken from eighteen canisters and forty-eight-separate reactions were produced. All the tests gave positive results showing the presence of prussic acid with the aforesaid reagents. . . . Thus, the contents of the canisters that were examined consist of the substance 'Zyklon B' which is a specially prepared kieselghur in the form of granules up to one cm., impregnated with liquid stabilized prussic acid. The contents of the canisters found in large numbers in the camp bearing the label 'Zyklon' are identical with 'Zyklon-B'. . . . Samples of the gas taken from the containers were tested for carbon monoxide with the aid of reactions to iodinc pentoxide and palladious chloride indicator paper. In all, sixteen tests were made with iodine pentoxide and ten were made with palladious chloride indicator paper. All the tests made with the aforesaid reagents gave positive reactions to carbon monoxide.

http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps ... eport.html
The gassing program lasted from late 1942 to early 1943 and was soon replaced by shooting.

Gas chambers 1 and 3 labeled below were used for CO Gassings. 1 also was equipped to used Zyklon-B though a hole which is located in the roof. Room 2 was intended for Zyklon but according to H.E.A.R.T. was never put into use.

http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/Image231.gif

The has its phases, so when you do say:
The above description shows that KL-Lublin was primarily a place of forced labour, rather than a place where Jews were sent for the specific purpose of killing them, in the manner of the killing centres at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka.
Its not very accurate. At least with whom it appears your responding to. D-H does make reference to a smaller site located out in Belarus which killed roughly the same number of Jews as Majdanek, but do mind though that Majdaneks extermination phase was short lived. It doesn't appear that D-H tried to argue Majdanek reached the levels of any of the 3 AR camps. Mind though saying the following doesn't again fit with the information which we have.
Note that the USHMM does not claim that Jews were definitely sent to that camp for the express purpose of killing them, nor that Jews were killed on arrival, as they were at the real killing centres. All it can say is that may have happened, but it is equally possible that the Jews sent to KL-Lublin had all been selected for forced labour, and were only killed when they became too sick or weak to go on working.

That would mean that any homicidal gassings carried out at KL-Lublin were in the context of Sonderbehandlung-14f13, the "euthanasia" of sick prisoners, rather than in the context of an extermination program targeted at Jews. That is because prisoners of any ethnicity could fall victim to Sonderbehandlung-14f13, not only Jews or Gypsies.
Sure the USHMM doesn't say it was a primary extermination center.... What exactly does this change? The gas chamber to my knowledge was only used for murder between the time period that I have provided. After that the bunker lost its use and the largest room was transferred over to a delousing chamber. The major thing also would be is that I only have record of 2 groups being gassed. Russian POW and Jews... and there is hardly much to back up the Soviet POW's. Cipora Hurwitz speaks of Russian POW's being marched back for death but not much else past that. She had arrived in the later stage of the gassing program and was assigned to work in Interfiled 1. The Poles were not gassed to my knowledge... Mind also that Majdanek was more of a temporary extermination camp. Also mind that even after the gassing program that a good majority of the Jewish victims were murdered during Aktion Erntefest.
It has to be said that the claim that homicidal gassings took place in one or both of the shower rooms converted to the use of Zyklon-B rests on rather inconclusive evidence. The presence of blue staining on the interior walls of those rooms does show that they were exposed to hydrogen cyanide gas for extended periods, but that is not conclusive proof that the exposure took place in the context of a homicidal procedure; such exposure for extended periods is more consistent with a normal delousing procedure than homicidal gassing, for the reasons I stated in my previous message.
More modern sources do not argue that Majdaneks large gas chamber was used for Zyklon gassings. Barbara Schwindt mentioned that the heater may have been used for Zyklon Gassings in the room you are speaking of though. Mind this room wasn't used for delousing till 1943... That is from what I am aware. The Furnaces which we see on the bunker in the liberation photos were not added till November of 1943, and I do not see any delousing happening in these rooms without the furnace. The point is rather simple that the museum doesn't claim the blue stains as proof for gassings... As already explained the gassings in the listed room where the blue stains can be found was used for carbon monoxide gassings... That is what the pipeline along the right side was used for.
Furthermore, a large proportion of the tens of thousands of Jews who perished at KL-Lublin consisted of victims of the Operation Erntefest massacres in November 1943, which had been ordered by Himmler because he feared an uprising of prisoners similar to what had occurred in the Warsaw Ghetto and other ghettos, as well as at Treblinka and Sobibor.
Last time I checked Operation Erntefest killed between 16,000 to 18,000 Jews and I believe that Kranz said it was 25,000 Jews gassed... So I am pretty sure more Jews died by gassings.

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by Sergey Romanov » 11 Jan 2020 20:39

uberjude wrote:
25 Apr 2016 15:37
excellent post--and an excellent metaphor for the methodology of Holocaust Denial. You have somebody claiming there is a window, and what is their proof? A shot from the side which shows what seems to be a window, but, when you see the real thing, clearly isn't. So much of denial involves creating these kinds of "facts" which seem compelling only if you don't ever look at the big picture.
Actually there's a window in the chamber in the barrack 41 posted initially. Currently the museum (read: T. Kranz) dismisses it as a homicidal chamber, however as far as I'm concerned they don't have sufficient grounds for this conclusion.

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Re: The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'

Post by Sergey Romanov » 19 Jan 2020 15:39

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... amber.html

Solving the mystery of the seventh gas chamber of Majdanek.

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