Debating the number of Holocaust victims at Majdanek

[David Thompson]

Saggy -- You wrote, quoting me:

I want credible eyewitness testimony that Ford Motor Company ever built a single car.

You wouldn't need the eyewitness testimony if you had a Ford in the garage.

Those aren't really "Fords." That's just a phantasmagoria, shared by everyone who ever claimed to have seen a "Ford," or part of one. And where's the credible eyewitness testimony that "Ford" built it?

[Simon K]

Saggy. You said "Something is amiss here"
What is amiss?

[phylo_roadking]

In the final analysis, I think that this 'testimony' will have to be supported by physical or documentary evidence, or it is ENTIRELY WORTHLESS. Words, and nothing more

Witness and defendant statements made in the box under oath usually IS verbal...that's why we have court oaths, and the charge of perjury if required. Words i.e. coming out of a witness' mouth, under oath to whatever he or she holds dear, is the standard in jurisprudence for...what's the latest estimate for the power of speech evolving in humans? And transcripts of court proceedings such as David present extracts from earlier are regarded universally as having the same weight in evidence, as they were given originally under oath.

[sallyg]

...major snippage...

Thanks ! I by chance started looking at the testimony of Pffannensteil, and it has slowed me down a bit. I will take the indirect approach to discrediting his testimony. I confess I do not believe it, for the following reasons .....
...major snippage...
700-800 people in 93 square meters.
...major snippage...
You may believe all this. I think that it obvious phantasmagoria, absurd on its face.

Well, let's do a little arithmetic, based on your numbers.

depth 30 cm
X
width 45 cm
equals
an area of 1,350 cm^2 per person
/
10,000.00 cm^2/m^2
equals
an area of 0.14 m^2 per person
times
# people 700
equals
area required 94.50 m^2 total

If you are American or British I'll convert that; it equals an area approximately 12" X 18".

Given a malnourished population, the entire spectrum of ages present and guards that care only for efficiency, that is an eminently "doable" density.

Some British commuter trains operate at a density of .19 m^2 per person. Commuters tend to be well fed and adult.

http://thehumanimprint.typepad.com/the_ ... ensit.html

[sallyg]

David,

The depth, breadth and, I believe, you passion, for the material and the subject does you and this forum proud.

Yeah, I know, opinion post.

Doug

[Simon K]

Interesting theoretical forensics.
It doesnt sound like an excessively small area, or an excessively large number, however one wishes to put it, for a scenario based on the probable physiology of the victims.
I agree with that sentiment Doug, BTW.

[Saggy]

...major snippage...

Thanks ! I by chance started looking at the testimony of Pffannensteil, and it has slowed me down a bit. I will take the indirect approach to discrediting his testimony. I confess I do not believe it, for the following reasons .....
...major snippage...
700-800 people in 93 square meters.
...major snippage...
You may believe all this. I think that it obvious phantasmagoria, absurd on its face.

Well, let's do a little arithmetic, based on your numbers.

Those aren't my numbers, they're Gerstein's. Let's see if they're reasonable....

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/israeli ... 16-09.html

"Belzec was the first camp in which large gas chambers were built. The old wooden structure containing the three gas chambers was demolished, and on the same spot a larger, strong building was erected, which was 24 m. Iong and 10 m. wide. It contained six gas chambers. Statements differ as to their size; they fluctuate between 4 x 4 m. and 4 x 8 m. The new gas chambers were completed in mid July. "

So, doing the math, the estimates of the room sizes vary from 16 to 32 sq. meters. Gerstein says with certainty the rooms are 93 sq meters. Well, he's only off 300 to 500 percent.

We can analyze this nonsense further if you want.

[David Thompson]

The pending question is whether Jews and Gypsies were taken from the deportation trains to the gas chambers. Let's get that question answered first before we start wandering afield.

We have twelve eyewitnesses to deal with, and Saggy's addition of Gerstein makes it a baker's dozen -- 13. I agree that Gerstein exaggerated dimensions and numbers. Not everyone is prepared to deal with mass murder, and folks' reactions to it, when they witness it, differ. But again, the pending question is whether Jews and Gypsies were taken from the deportation trains to the gas chambers.

Saggy wanted eyewitness testimony, and he's got five more eyewitnesses to work with, other than the one he gratuitously supplied. Testimony about dimensions and numbers is not the same as testimony about sequences and procedure. Not everyone has a knack for math, but most can fairly well describe what they saw people do.

Here, we have thirteen SS witness accounts to consider in combination -- taking them all together to try to answer the question. Did they all see or hear about something similar -- Jews and Gypsies being taken from the deportation trains to the gas chambers -- or was what they saw and heard just a phantasmagorical experience on each and every occasion for all of the thirteen SS men? Or could it be that it's only Saggy working off his own phantasmagorical experience, while the thirteen SS witnesses got it right in the first place?

Stay tuned to find out.

[sallyg]

Those aren't my numbers, they're Gerstein's. Let's see if they're reasonable....

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/israeli ... 16-09.html

"Belzec was the first camp in which large gas chambers were built. The old wooden structure containing the three gas chambers was demolished, and on the same spot a larger, strong building was erected, which was 24 m. Iong and 10 m. wide. It contained six gas chambers. Statements differ as to their size; they fluctuate between 4 x 4 m. and 4 x 8 m. The new gas chambers were completed in mid July. "

So, doing the math, the estimates of the room sizes vary from 16 to 32 sq. meters. Gerstein says with certainty the rooms are 93 sq meters. Well, he's only off 300 to 500 percent.

We can analyze this nonsense further if you want.

Absolutely, and you characterized it, not I.

But to proceed, using the numbers from your quote, backed up by a corridor width from your link of 1.5 metres and a capacity of 1,500 we obtain the following:

gross width (m) 10
- corridor width (m) 1.5
equals
net width (m) 8.5
X length (m) 24
equals
chamber area (m^2) 204
/ # of persons 1,500
equals
(m^2/person) 0.136

How is this significantly different (in either a general or statistics sense), from my previous calculation of .14 m^2/person?

Let me reiterate;

previously: .14 m^2
currently: .136 m^2

As the boss used to say in the bunkhouse "fill your boots".

[sallyg]

The pending question is whether Jews and Gypsies were taken from the deportation trains to the gas chambers. Let's get that question answered first before we start wandering afield.

Certainly.

[Saggy]

How is this significantly different (in either a general or statistics sense), from my previous calculation of .14 m^2/person?

I didn't disagree with your calculation. If you want to claim that Gerstein was referring to all the chambers combined, and why not, then we can proceed to analyze that nonsense.

I assumed the figures referred to one room, thus you approximately can gas all 6000 in one pass. If he is referring to the sum of all the gas chambers then we can analyze his statement with that assumption. That would correspond to 6 rooms on the small side of the estimates in the linked article.

Then to gas the 6000 they would have run 7 / 8 groups through. Into the chambers, the gassing, listening to the screaming, clearing them out, cleaning up the feces and blood, etc., seven times. All in an afternoon, especially difficult if it takes an hour to start the engine each time. Gerstein describes in complete detail one group. Not seven. Maybe he forgot? In short, his account is complete nonsense, either way you interpret his figures.

The point is not that Gerstein's account is false, but that it is that it is preposterous and OBVIOUSLY false. No rational person could possibly take it seriously. And this is just from analyzing this one point. There are many absurdities in his account.

This certainly relates to the credibility of Gerstein's and hence Pfannenstiel's testimony.

[sallyg]

Or could it be that it's only Saggy working off his own phantasmagorical experience, while the thirteen SS witnesses got it right in the first place?

Stay tuned to find out.

-David Thompson

[Saggy]

We have twelve eyewitnesses to deal with, and Saggy's addition of Gerstein makes it a baker's dozen -- 13.

We started with Majdanek and Auschwitz, and you are the one who widened the scope of the inquiry to include the Reinhard camps, which present their own set of problems because the camps were razed before the end of the war and have become a n almost blank slate for the projections of the 'serious' holocaust scholars on one hand, and the revisionists on the other.

And, you introduced us to Pfannenstiel, and any analysis of his testimony leads immediately to Gerstein and Obilio Globocnik. Oh yes, Globocnik.

Using the redoubtable wiki, we find out that it was Globocnik and not Wirth who created the Reihnard system of camps ... among other nefarious actions ...

"On October 13, 1941, Globocnik received a verbal order from Himmler to start immediate construction work on Belzec, the first extermination camp in the General Government. The construction of three more extermination camps, Sobibór and Maidanek in the Lublin district, and Treblinka at Małkinia Górna, followed in 1942. All in all, Globocnik was responsible for killing more than 1.5 million Polish, Czech, Dutch, French, Russian, Slovak, German, and Austrian Jews and non-Jews in the death camps which he organized and supervised."

So, this is quite a character, and I had never heard of him.

A little googling produced a lenghty report written by Globocnik to Himmler and labelled top secret. See the report along with Himmler's reply on this page .... The report, as 4024-PS, is part of the Nuremberg record ......

http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconglobocnik.html

This actual Nazi document provides a quite different picture of the Reinhard operation that the nigthmare accounts of Gerstein and Pfannensteil presented in this thread.

[David Thompson]

Saggy -- You wrote:

And, you introduced us to Pfannenstiel, and any analysis of his testimony leads immediately to Gerstein and Obilio Globocnik. Oh yes, Globocnik.

Using the redoubtable wiki, we find out that it was Globocnik and not Wirth who created the Reihnard system of camps ... among other nefarious actions ...

"On October 13, 1941, Globocnik received a verbal order from Himmler to start immediate construction work on Belzec, the first extermination camp in the General Government. The construction of three more extermination camps, Sobibór and Maidanek in the Lublin district, and Treblinka at Małkinia Górna, followed in 1942. All in all, Globocnik was responsible for killing more than 1.5 million Polish, Czech, Dutch, French, Russian, Slovak, German, and Austrian Jews and non-Jews in the death camps which he organized and supervised."

So, this is quite a character, and I had never heard of him.

I can't say I'm surprised. If you know nothing about "Aktion Reinhard(t)" and don't read books like Joseph Poprzeczny's Odilo Globocnik: Hitler's Man in the East, McFarland & Co, London: 2004, try the forum search engine. You might learn something, and salvage what little is left of your credibility.

You also wrote:

A little googling produced a lenghty report written by Globocnik to Himmler and labelled top secret. See the report along with Himmler's reply on this page .... The report, as 4024-PS, is part of the Nuremberg record ......

http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconglobocnik.html

This actual Nazi document provides a quite different picture of the Reinhard operation that the nigthmare accounts of Gerstein and Pfannensteil presented in this thread.

No doubt. Reports of booty seized from the dead always read cleaner than accounts of the owners' murder. See these threads for other Nazi documents on the subject, which I posted in the forum nearly four years ago:

Documents relating to "Aktion Reinhardt"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=64269
The SS-WVHA: violent police entrepreneurs
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63443

Inventory lists of personal property confiscated from Jews in Aktion Reinhard(t):

Document L-18: Solution of Jewish Question in Galicia [translation], in Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression. Volume VII: US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: GPO, 1947. pp. 755-770.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 279#554279
NO-060, in Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10. Vol. 5: United States v. Oswald Pohl, et. al. (Case 4: 'Pohl Case'). US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1950. pp. 704-705.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 546#578546
Document NO-061, in Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10. Vol. 5: United States v. Oswald Pohl, et. al. (Case 4: 'Pohl Case'). US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1950. pp. 706-709.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 553#578553
Document NO-2003, in Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10. Vol. 5: United States v. Oswald Pohl, et. al. (Case 4: 'Pohl Case'). US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1950. pp. 709-712.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 558#578558

See also these discussion threads:

"Aktion Reinhardt" -- What did it denote?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=64215
Aktion Reinhard(t)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61664

"The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up."

[Saggy]

No doubt. Reports of booty seized from the dead always read cleaner than accounts of the owners' murder. See these threads for other Nazi documents on the subject, which I posted in the forum nearly four years ago:

Well, the lists of booty are extraordinary, for sure. But that is not all the information that is contained in the documents that you posted. For example:

REPORT BY GLOBOCNIK ON "ACTION REINHARDT," UNDATED ENCLOSURE TO HIS LETTER TO HIMMLER, 5 JANUARY 1944, (DOCUMENT NO-064)

..................................................

B. Utilization of manpower

The entire manpower was brought together and kept in closed camps into which manufacture of essential items for war had been transferred.

For this the requirements were as follows:

1. Construction of all housing quarters.

2. Construction of workshops and procurement of all the industrial installations such as machinery, power, supply, etc.

3. A basis for supplies, first by making use of TWL's [Truppenwirtschaftslagertroop supply depots] and otherwise by setting up agricultural establishments in the vicinity of the camps.

4. Installations for setting up satisfactory sanitary and hygienic conditions.

5. Security measures

a. By respective basic security measures.

b. By having a security organization within the camp.

c. By keeping an adequate guard. For this purpose SS guards were established which, led by Germans, rendered for the most part satisfactory service. The reliability was to be increased by intermingling of these guards with Reich-German guards from the concentration camps.

d. By having the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office take over the management of the camps, the prerequisite for a satisfactory security situation was accomplished.

6. Correct leadership and methodical treatment was made possible by giving extensive training to the German personnel in charge. It became evident that the working capacity of the Jews was steadily on the increase.

7. The commercial and mechanical sides were safeguarded by establishing commercial and mechanical management of the plant. "Osti" was founded for this purpose as second factory management the "Deutsche Ausruestungswerke" [German Equipment Works].

All together 18 establishments had been built up; still more were to be added. About 52,000 laborers were available. On this basis of labor it was possible to accept rush orders from the Armament Inspection as well as from the Reich Ministry Speer, and thus substitute for bombed-out plants.

The demands from these places were very large. "Osti" and German Equipment Works were directed by me personally whereas of other plants, such as Heinkel Airplane Works, I was only custodian. Supplement 1 contains factory report and production figures.

The orders on hand will be enough to keep DAW working at full capacity until March, while the other factories have work enough for 2-3 months.
............................................................................

Here we see the actual documents regarding the operation of the Action = Reinhard (?) camps.

This demonstrates to me that Gerstein's and Pfannenstiel's reports were pure fantasy. The purpose of the camps was not to exterminate Jews, and this absurdity is supported only by phantasmagoria like Gerstein's, but rather to provide labor to the war effort, and this is supported by actual Nazi documents which still exist.