Jewish Nazicollaborators

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Artur Szulc
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Jewish Nazicollaborators

#1

Post by Artur Szulc » 22 Sep 2008, 18:09

It is a historical fact - but not widely known - that a organization called Zagiew (or The Torch) existed i the Warsaw getto. Zagiew were organized and sponsored by the Gestapo, and consisted of jews.

We have the Thirteen organization, which consisted of jews. "Thirteen" was organized after the Jewish riot in Warsaw 1943 and its main goal was to find hidden jews and their christian helpers.

It is estimated that in the Warsaw getto the germans had 1 000 jewish agents and in the whole of the General Government a total of 15 000. Thirteen consisted of about 300.

To this one can add the Sonderkommande AS under the lead of Alfred Spilker. 820 jews served in the Sonderkommando AS and they where used during the Warsaw Uprising -44 to cleans areas taken by german military.

And finally there is the Jewish gettopolice. Numerous jewish accounts describe how brutal these jewish Ordnungsdienst was.

Further reading: Tadeusz Piotrowski, Polands Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration With Occupying Forces and Genocide in the Second Republic, 1918-1947

Or Isaiaha Trunk, Judenrat: The Jewish Councils in Eastern Europe under Nazi Occupation.

Some questions:

Is jewish collaboration more understandable then other? I mean, one can argue that the collaborating jews faced death if they refused. (But this is an argument that also can be applied on the Polish Blue police - but no one does that).

Do teachers in schools even take two minutes in the classroom to inform students about jewish traitors when working on the Holocaust? (I am only using this word, traitors, beacuse many jewish Holocaust-survivors use it)

Is this so controversial that nobody wants to discuss the matter? If so, why?

/Chili.

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HaEn
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#2

Post by HaEn » 24 Sep 2008, 18:35

Although indeed not widely known, there were a great many Jews who collaberated with their captors/opressors in order to survive this ordeal the best possible way. Whether this was a justifiable thing, or despicable behavior, will have to be decided by a higher power at the appointed time.
As such I wonder how many of the self proclaimed experts and "survivors" really went through the stuff they say they went, when they went on the lecturing circuit and made a very good living off their presentations.
A good example in my mind is Herr Frank, father of Anne Frank, who upon arrival at Auschwitz, was very sick.
As the horror reports tell us, that would have been an automatic send off, by the flick of the hand, to the group destined to be murdered. Instead he was sent to the camp hospital, where he was Liberated a few months later, and returned to Holland, where upon arrival in his old ransacked appartment, picked CLEAN by the "PULS" company, who was assigned by the German occupation force, to clean out the apartments of deported Jews, miraculously found the diary of his daughter, which now is even required reading in a great many schools around the world. And, for example in the Netherlands, may, under penalty of law, not be questioned, or doubted about its veracity.
There are many articles pro and con about this diary, but the main point is: why was Mr. Frank able to get a spot in the Krankenlager, in spite of his illness.
Also just as a point of interest, Anne Frank and her sister, were NOT, killed at Auschwitz, but took part in the "voluntary"(sic) march westwards to escape the uncoming Russian troops. She ended up in Bergen Belsen, where she unfortunately fell pray to the epidemy ofTyphus, which was raging throuhg most German camps, due to a shortage of Cyclon B, the gas that was used to delouse clothing and bedding, etc, just as it was used in the Armed forces.
I presume I will get some flak on this, but this is the way I see it, for better worse.
OH, and by the way, I am not an anti semite; my paternal grandmother, as well as my stepmother and stepsiblings were Jews.
HN


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Marcus
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#3

Post by Marcus » 01 Oct 2008, 10:43

The discussion about the fate of Anne Frank and her father was split off into a new thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=144358 please keep this thread focused on Jewish collaboration instead being drowned by that particular case.

/Marcus

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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#4

Post by South » 01 Oct 2008, 11:35

Good morning Chili,

Some opinions in reply to your posed questions:

In reverse chron order:

Some material is not controversial as much as surpressed as it does not assist various groups' portrayals of themselves. Is this not a universial feature? "Jewish" is a large collective proper noun. There are various subgroups with different political philosophies and different presentations.

Can't discuss Sweden but in the USA, the public schools teach very little history and very little social studies. I doubt if any geography is taught. Your post deals with advanced-level history. In practical terms, it is post university level and dealt with by professional historians and professional researchers of the related fields. America's kids have indeed, been "dumbed down". Slowly this is changing.

Many of what you term "traitors" were not. Many had lost their sanity and sense of humanity. A modern term now in the scientific literature is "Stockholm Syndrome". An excellent book discussing captives and their responses to capitivity - and why-, is:

VICTIMS OF TERRORISM, 1982, ISBN: 0-89158-463-3, edited by Frank M. Ochberg and David A. Soskis. The book is part of a series by Westview Special Studies in National and International Terrorism. The Nazi techniques are addressed. One study by editor Frank M. Ochberg deals with the Moluccan hijacking of a Dutch train (late 1975) with Gerald Vaders, a skilled journalist onboard who was debriefed by the forensic psychiatrists. The study addresses victim responses and their coping mechanisms.

"Jewish collaborators" plot out with all the other examples as adjusted to the situation and the environment.

Your narrative has the term "Sunderkommando AS". All this material is available to private citizens. In my research on the Holocoast and the Nazi concentration camps, I've read about Sonderkommandos (and a related term: "kapos"). Had read of the "Blue squad" and the Red squad". Other terms were "Totenjuden; "Jews of Death" and "death panic".

Hopefully this helps,


Warm regards,

Bob

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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#5

Post by Grisu » 02 Oct 2008, 20:43

Marcus Wendel wrote:The discussion about the fate of Anne Frank and her father was split off into a new thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=144358 please keep this thread focused on Jewish collaboration instead being drowned by that particular case.

/Marcus
Thank you for splitting. HaEn might wish to read through the split thread as there are several questions put forward and new points raised in connection to his original posting in this thread.

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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#6

Post by Hülse » 22 Oct 2008, 04:56

The study of WWII was poor here in Brazil too, few lessons to learn how and why the war occured.
I have to agree that many jews and historiators try to make the story more easy to swallow when they give dramacity and romance to history. The problem is that the true facts doesn't have this. People in conditions of fear and hunger forgot all humanity sense and do the most horrible things to self protection, I think that is a natural instinct of human being. We must say that few pearsons can handle with this kind of situation without lost their minds.

In the end, I think that "traitors" jews was a page "burned" of the history of WWII, like the page of Allies war crimes.

Hülse

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#7

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Oct 2008, 13:42

Contrary to the mischevious proposition of this thread, it is widely known that there was some Jewish collaboration. The SonderKommandos at the crematoria are particularly well known and there have been numerous studies of the Judenrats.

The various ghettos were administered by German-approved Jewish councils (Judenrat) with their own police forces. The councils were sometimes corrupt and the police forces harsh. However, had they not existed, anarchy would probably have reigned in the ghettos and death rates would almost certainly have been far higher, far earlier.

Given the overwhelming pressure Jews were under (rather worse than experienced by other Poles), it is not surprising if some chose to postpone their deaths, or ease conditions by collaborating. One thing is for sure - it was not done to assist the German war effort or the so-called "Holocaust". It was an act of desperation for all but the occasional clinical sadist or psychpath.

By all means discuss the issue of Jewish collaboration, such as it was. But let''s put it in its proper perspective. It involved only a small minority under the most extreme of pressure.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#8

Post by Artur Szulc » 22 Oct 2008, 21:47

Contrary to the mischevious proposition of this thread, it is widely known that there was some Jewish collaboration. The SonderKommandos at the crematoria are particularly well known and there have been numerous studies of the Judenrats.


I do not know if it is justified to call the Sonderkommandos at the crematorium collaboration.

Sonderkommande AS was one totally different thing. This Sonderkommando consisted of jewish fighters engaged against poles in Warsaw 1944.

And my first post was focused on the Zagiew-organization and the "13", not the Judenrat.
Given the overwhelming pressure Jews were under (rather worse than experienced by other Poles), it is not surprising if some chose to postpone their deaths, or ease conditions by collaborating. One thing is for sure - it was not done to assist the German war effort or the so-called "Holocaust". It was an act of desperation for all but the occasional clinical sadist or psychpath.
Well, most of the poles acted of desperation. No?

Every christian pole who served (forced to serve) in the "Blue police" acted of desperation, to fed his family. Still these polish police are concidered collaborators. In my eyes therefore, so are the Jewish Ordungsdienst. They had the power to look after people, but instead many of them ravaged former neighbours, forced money out of people and participated in gathering people to the deathtrains. In some cases - in fact, most - the germans did not even trust the poles to carry out the orders of deporting people but instead called the Jewish OD.

In Archiwum Akt Nowych (Archive for New Documents) in Warsaw the Delegatura (representatives of the government in exile and some sort of government in occupied Poland) compiled a list of over 1 000 names, spies, agents, informers and so on, all of jewish descent. Do a list of so many polish non-jewish traitors exist? The widely spread belive of a polish traitor standing in every corner is a fabrication, a myth. The world is not black and white, let us remember that.

Jewish and none-jewish underground organisations in Poland worked closely together and hunted down polish szmalcowniki, traitors and agents. Many death-sentences were carried out.
Contrary to the mischevious proposition of this thread, it is widely known that there was some Jewish collaboration.
I was not mischevious, quite on the contrary.

But please, give me some references to literature concerning the Zagiew or the "13"? Or perhaps, some articles? A documentary? No...

Cheers,

Chili

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#9

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Oct 2008, 13:24

Hi Chili,

To draw a direct equation with most Poles and most Jews would be false. Certainly the Poles were earmarked for similar future treatment as the Jews, but in the generality they did not suffer the same exterminatory pressure as their Jews. One only has to look at survival rates of the two groups to see that Poles generally were not under the same pressure as Jews - yet.

You say that "Every christian pole who served (forced to serve) in the "Blue police" acted of desperation, to fe(e)d his family." Where do you get this information from?

It is very intertesting that the list "of over 1 000 names, spies, agents, informers and so on" are described as "all of jewish descent", not as Jewish. One has to ask the motivation of the Delegatura in collecting a list only of those of "Jewish descent"? It sounds suspiciously anti-Semtic in itself. Was there a similar ethnically-selective list of Polish collaborators? Or Ukrainians? Or Byelorussians? If so, why make separate lists?

Where do you get the idea from that there is a "widely spread belive of a polish traitor standing in every corner "? I have never seen any such suggestion. Where have you seen this? It runs contrary to everything we know about the German administration in Poland during the war. Poland was the only occupied state for whom Germany refused to recognise any form of successor government either as a puppet or in exile. They went out of their way to reduce the Poles' ability to administer themselves and deliberately kept their requirements for Polish collaboration to a minimum. Where do you get the idea that anyone, anywhere thinks that there was a Polish traitor standing on every corner?

All well sourced evidence is welcome.

However, you seem to be starting from two false premises - firstly, that details of Jewish collaboration are virtually unknown and, secondly, that there is a widespread belief that Poland was a nation of collaborators. Neither is true.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#10

Post by Artur Szulc » 23 Oct 2008, 16:22

Hi there Sid,

You wrote:
Contrary to the mischevious proposition of this thread, it is widely known that there was some Jewish collaboration
As an answer to this my statement:
It is a historical fact - but not widely known - that a organization called Zagiew (or The Torch) existed i the Warsaw getto. Zagiew were organized and sponsored by the Gestapo, and consisted of jews
.

Am I right?

In that case please give me some references to books and articles focusing on Zagiew and perhaps the 13?

Any kind of literature would be welcomed. And then we can analize just how widely known this kind of jewish collaboration is, Yes?
It sounds suspiciously anti-Semtic in itself. Was there a similar ethnically-selective list of Polish collaborators? Or Ukrainians? Or Byelorussians? If so, why make separate lists?
I do not know. Perhaps the jewish underground movement demanded it, perhaps the non-jewish underground movement demanded it. I have not analized this document or the Delegaturas reports. But I will, eventually.
It sounds suspiciously anti-Semtic in itself
Does it?
Where do you get the idea from that there is a "widely spread belive of a polish traitor standing in every corner "? I have never seen any such suggestion. Where have you seen this?
Where I have seen it? One example:

The Jews in Poland had an expression: if a Pole meets me on the wayside and doesn’t kill
me, it is only from laziness. … The Poles … were all fanatical Catholics, and all had
unsatiable [sic] appetites for Jewish blood. Those cruel pythons, the Polish clergy,
instigated—after the fall of the Nazis—pogroms of those Jews who’d miraculously
survived.

Reb Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, Part 1
Brooklyn, New York: Naturei Karta of U.S.A., 1977)


And there are always polish traitors in focus in movies about the Holocaust. One exampel: Uprising (HBO i belive).

So, Sid please give me some of your sources concerning the widespread knowledge about the Zagiew...

Cheers,

/C

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#11

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Oct 2008, 13:18

Hi chili,

Wikipedia includes four published sources for Zagiew and six for the 13. And these are just English-language and Polish sources. Please check yourself. And who knows how many others there are?

Wikipedia is not a source I prefer, admittedly, but it definitely fulfills the criteria for a widely diseminated source.

Assuming Wikipedia is accurate (not necessarily the case), it would appear that books and articles on both Zagiew and the 13 have been widely available for at least 20 years. The fact that you may not be aware of this may tell us more about your limited researches than the absence of sources.

Your single quote does not even address my question, let alone answer it. It refers to "after the fall of the Nazis" and makes no mention of Polish collaborators whatsoever. I repeat, I have never seen any suggestion that there is a widespread perception that Polish traitors were standing on every street corner.

And one example from a film does not amount to there "always" being Polish traitors in focus in movies. I, personally, can recall none.

I am not familiar with the film "Uprising", but if it refers to the Jewish Uprising, might a single collaborator not actually be underplaying the actual incidence of Polish collaboration? According to the German Stroop Report they deployed on average per day four Polish Police officers, 163 Polish Policemen and 166 Polish firemen. (see: http://holocaust-history.org/works/stro ... trp007.htm).

I repeat, you seem to be starting from two false premises - firstly, that details of Jewish collaboration are virtually unknown and, secondly, that there is a widespread belief that Poland was a nation of collaborators. Neither is true. It is widely known that there was some collaboration by both Jews and Poles, but both represented very small minorities of their respective populations.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#12

Post by Artur Szulc » 24 Oct 2008, 16:21

Hi there Sid,
Wikipedia includes four published sources for Zagiew and six for the 13. And these are just English-language and Polish sources. Please check yourself. And who knows how many others there are?
I have some of those books at home. Indeed, they do mention for example the Zagiew, but in Piotrowskis book, the information on the Zagiew is limited.
Wikipedia is not a source I prefer, admittedly, but it definitely fulfills the criteria for a widely diseminated source.
Is it?
Wikipedia (English version) have a short article about the Polish General Tadeusz Kutrzeba, the Commander of the Poznan army in september 1939 - is this widely known just beacuse there is an article about him on Wikipedia?

I think not.
The fact that you may not be aware of this may tell us more about your limited researches than the absence of sources.
It is interesting that You can draw that conclusion just from the fact that I do not mention Wikipedias articles on this matter earlier in this thread.

But Sid, do You know any books that only deals with for example the Zagiew?

I have one book, the first for over 30 years, that deals with the Hotel Polski-affair.
Your single quote does not even address my question, let alone answer it. It refers to "after the fall of the Nazis" and makes no mention of Polish collaborators whatsoever. I repeat, I have never seen any suggestion that there is a widespread perception that Polish traitors were standing on every street corner.
Well, Sid, I do not have time to bring forward more qoutes only to convince you, but here are some more:

Mordekhai Tenenbaum, "The Germans would never have been so successful as they were" in locating Jews. "It was the Poles who called out "Yid" at every Jew who escaped from the train transporting him to the gas chambers, it was they who caught these unfortunate wretches and who rejoiced at every missfortune".

Citated in Hitler and the Holocaust. How and why the Holocaust Happened (paperback 2002) by Robert S Wistrich, page 33.

Menachem Begin: "What concerns the Jews, the Poles were collaborating with the Germans...Only at most one hundred
people have been helping Jews.
" Said on Dutch TV some 20 years ago. In other words, according to Begin, the majority of the Poles collaborated, thus, "standing in every corner". That is my interpretation. You do not have to agree, but stop accusing me of presenting false premises.

From reviews of professor Yaffa Eliachs bok There Once Was a World

The Poles, according to Eliach, collaborated with the Nazis in just about everything. There is no mention of Poles ever having fought against the Germans. Rather, Jews are shown as bravely fighting for Poland in the Polish army, only to be hamstrung and undermined by their Jew-hating fellow soldiers. The Poles always run away or collaborate.

From A TANGLED WEB. Polish-Jewish Relations in Wartime Northeastern Poland and the Aftermath (3) by Mark Paul, page 247.


And do not put words in my mouth, so to speak: "firstly, that details of Jewish collaboration are virtually unknown and".

I wrote "widely unknown". That is a huge difference.

And I am still waiting for You to explain or show just how widely the knowledge is spread about Zagiew.

Has any newspaper articles been written on the subject? Any seminars? Academical lectures?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#13

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Oct 2008, 13:14

Hi Chili,

I don't much like Wikipedia as a source, but whatever else one might say about it, it is very definitely widely diseminated. It is available to a billion or more people. Indeed, there is probably not a more widely diseminated source, which is why it comes up early in most Google searches on most subjects.

I have absolutely no expertise on Zagiew or ther 13 whatsoever. My point is regarding your two false premises - firstly, that details of Jewish collaboration are "widely" unknown and, secondly, that there is a widespread belief that Poland was a nation of collaborators. Neither is true. It is widely known that there was some collaboration by both Jews and Poles, but both represented very small minorities of their respective populations.

You have now given four sources that approximate to your proposition that there is a widespread belief that Poland was a nation of collaborators. However, it is noticeable that all are apparently Jewish and refer specifically to Polish betrayal of Jews to the Germans. I am not sure whether a belief held within the Jewish community counts as widespread.

The nub of this thread appears to be that a significant number of Jews believe themselves to have been betrayed by Polish collaboration with the Germans and that you believe this is a widespread perception. It is not. The general opinion on the Poles in WWII reflects their own victimhood and courage in combat.

However, now that this has been raised, where does the apparent Jewish perception that many Poles collaborated with the Germans in their destruction come from? Is it true? Is it a misconception? Is it a fabrication? Is it a fiction? Were the Poles blameless? Maligned? Misrepresented? What is the evidence?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#14

Post by Artur Szulc » 25 Oct 2008, 14:05

I am not sure whether a belief held within the Jewish community counts as widespread.
Then, according to You, what would count as widespread, if not even the Jewish community counts?

I am looking forward to Your answer.
My point is regarding your two false premises - firstly, that details of Jewish collaboration are "widely" unknown and, secondly, that there is a widespread belief that Poland was a nation of collaborators. Neither is true. It is widely known that there was some collaboration by both Jews and Poles, but both represented very small minorities of their respective populations.
Is does not matter how many times you repeat this, beacuse you yourself do not give any sources to why my premises are untrue.
The nub of this thread appears to be that a significant number of Jews believe themselves to have been betrayed by Polish collaboration with the Germans and that you believe this is a widespread perception. It is not. The general opinion on the Poles in WWII reflects their own victimhood and courage in combat.

However, now that this has been raised, where does the apparent Jewish perception that many Poles collaborated with the Germans in their destruction come from? Is it true? Is it a misconception? Is it a fabrication? Is it a fiction? Were the Poles blameless? Maligned? Misrepresented? What is the evidence?
Now that is a different subject.
Perhaps we should wait with this.


I do belive that you should explain why my premises are untrue - as far, you have only pointed this out but has given no evidence that my premises are untrue. Wikipedia is a widespread source, yes, but you have to give som evidence that the knowledge about the Zagiew is widely known thanks to Wikipedia articles. Can You do that?

Sincerely,

Chili

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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

#15

Post by Grisu » 25 Oct 2008, 16:19

chili wrote:
Sid Guttridge wrote:I am not sure whether a belief held within the Jewish community counts as widespread.
Then, according to You, what would count as widespread, if not even the Jewish community counts?
I am looking forward to Your answer.
It will hardly be possible to establish an objectifiable measure as to what counts as "widespread" and what does not. What the two of you discuss here is in my view not "widespread" in the sense of "textbook knowledge", yet it is fairly well known, inside and outside the Jewish community, but - I would assume - mostly amongst those who have dug a little bit deeper into history and not just scratched a bit on the surface. I am not trying to terminate your discussion, but I feel that going back and forth about what is to be defined as "widespread" and what is not is in fact pettifogging and not absolutely relevant for the issue itself.
chili wrote:
Sid Guttridge wrote:My point is regarding your two false premises - firstly, that details of Jewish collaboration are "widely" unknown and, secondly, that there is a widespread belief that Poland was a nation of collaborators. Neither is true. It is widely known that there was some collaboration by both Jews and Poles, but both represented very small minorities of their respective populations.
Is does not matter how many times you repeat this, beacuse you yourself do not give any sources to why my premises are untrue.
I would tend to share Sid Guttridge's view on "Poles as collaborators". I don't think, neither, that Poland is generally seen as highly collaborative and I, as well, fail to provide sources for this subjective perception.
chili wrote:The nub of this thread appears to be that a significant number of Jews believe themselves to have been betrayed by Polish collaboration with the Germans and that you believe this is a widespread perception. It is not. The general opinion on the Poles in WWII reflects their own victimhood and courage in combat.
However, now that this has been raised, where does the apparent Jewish perception that many Poles collaborated with the Germans in their destruction come from? Is it true? Is it a misconception? Is it a fabrication? Is it a fiction? Were the Poles blameless? Maligned? Misrepresented? What is the evidence?
Before asking someone to provide answers for these questions, you would have to show that "Jewish perception" indeed does see the Poles as "more collaborative" than, say, Hungarians, Greeks, Czechs, Latvians (please don't nail me down on these, I am just throwing in names). You having "proven" this, we can then ask what the reasons for this perception are.

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