Jewish Nazicollaborators

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David Thompson
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by David Thompson » 05 Nov 2008 19:21

Lat's get back on topic -- Jewish collaborators with the Nazi regime.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Nov 2008 15:29

Hi Musashi,

There is nothing inherently wrong with comparing anything with anything. It is not the same as "equating", which is what I think you mean.

If I had equated the situation in Poland and the West, you might have a point, but I didn't.

Cheers,

Sid.

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tom_deba
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by tom_deba » 12 Nov 2008 23:33

Maybe it is very simple question but I wonder what was the fate of Jewish ghetto policemen when the Ghettos were liquidated and extermination on full scale started in concentration camps...Were they used again to new dirty job for Germans or executed?

Artur Szulc
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by Artur Szulc » 13 Nov 2008 20:26

tom_deba,

Maybe it is very simple question but I wonder what was the fate of Jewish ghetto policemen when the Ghettos were liquidated and extermination on full scale started in concentration camps...Were they used again to new dirty job for Germans or executed?


Most of the Jewish ghetto policeforce were killed.

But in other cases Jewish Gestapoagents were saved by the Germans.

Stefania Brandstätter (from the house of Rottenberger) was a German spy from 1941 (probaly from 1941). She established close contacts with Rudolf Körner, a German Gestapo-official in Cracow (head of a Gestapo-section?). Stefania helped him in identifying other Jews or to find Jews in hiding on the aryan side. She even fooled hidden Jews by saying that she could provide shelter for them. One of her favorit methods was to visit the playgrounds and expose Poles who were keeping Jewish children.

Yes, Stefania was a piece of work, indeed.

Stefania managed to escape to Hungary in 1944 thanks to Rudolf Körner, and later on she went to USA and settled down in New York.

Source: Zagłada Żydów. Studia i materiały, nr 6/2006, article: Przeciw swoim. Wzorce kolaboracji żydowskiej
w Krakowie i okolicy
, by Witold Mędykowski; Pages, 204, 206, 207 and 216.
(This magazine is published by the Polish Centre for Holocaust Studies)

Cheers,

Chili

jola
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by jola » 15 Nov 2008 15:06

Indeed Jewish collaboration is taboo and well hidden. Alfred Spilker's Sonderkommando AS is virtually nonexistant on the net. The Jews stationed on Aleje Szucha(Gestapo HQ in Warsaw) have vaporized from the pages of history. Zagiew and Groupa 13 are are known to 'chili' and me, and now a few others. Thousands of books on the "holocaust" and 3 or four mention Gancwajch and in Jewish books they sometimes wonder if he perhaps worked for the Gestapo.

From Pitrowski's book:
"...Perhaps Simon Wiesenthal's words provide a sobering commentary on the postwar
treatment of Jewish-Nazi collaborators by the very people they betrayed: "We
have done very little to condemn Jewish collaboration with the Nazis. When,
after the war, I demanded that those who had abused their office in ghettos
or concentration camps be removed from Jewish committees, I was told that
'this would diminish the guilt of the Nazis'".

Jewish Gestapo men are now all holocaust survivors needing respect and worship.

"Stocholm Syndrome" - this was a joke, right?

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tom_deba
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by tom_deba » 15 Nov 2008 16:54

Alfred Spilker's Sonderkommando AS is virtually nonexistant on the net.


Yes, but it was mentioned in various Polish books.
I do not understand the connection of Sonderkommando AS and Jewish collaborators. I far as I know the main task of Sonderkommando was the penetration of Polish resistance movements and anti-partisan actions.

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tom_deba
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by tom_deba » 15 Nov 2008 16:55

Zagiew and Groupa 13 are are known to 'chili' and me, and now a few others.


Any sources, bibliography?

jola
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by jola » 16 Nov 2008 11:36

Like I said sources in English are few and well hidden.

Relating Zagiew and 13, as well as Spilker's Jewish soldiers(820) in the Sondercommando AS you can read here on Page 74:

http://books.google.com/books?id=hC0-dk ... w#PPA74,M1

Here is a Jewish source (page 96), so it is watered down, of course:

http://books.google.com/books?id=j1GfKm ... c#PPA99,M1

Now tell me, we can find info on virtually every German unit, photos, decorations, etc., yet Spilker's unit is a blank. Maybe my search skills are lame. You tell me.

jola
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by jola » 16 Nov 2008 11:54

Tom,
I didn't realize that you are in PL, so this might be of interest to you:

http://warszawa.getto.pl/index.php?mod= ... AN&lang=en

and Bednarczyk's book:

http://jedwabne.blox.pl/html/1310721,26 ... tml?287050

When I have time I will take a walk to Szucha where there is a museum in the basement of the wartime Gestapo HQ and see what they got.

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tom_deba
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by tom_deba » 16 Nov 2008 12:05

Vey interesting sources. As you see there is a lot of links to subjects we are interested in but they are mostly in Polish.

When I have time I will take a walk to Szucha where there is a museum in the basement of the wartime Gestapo HQ and see what they got.


This is nothing more that simple exhibition consisted of few rooms - places where arrested people had to wait for interrogation.

Now tell me, we can find info on virtually every German unit, photos, decorations, etc., yet Spilker's unit is a blank. Maybe my search skills are lame. You tell me.


It is not so easy to find information even on selected infantry German unit. So it is definitely more difficult to find documents about well-organized but also well-hidden unit of Spilker. I suppose that detailed research in Archives in Poland and Germany would bring results!

jola
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by jola » 16 Nov 2008 15:49

I've been to the excellent Warsaw Uprising Museum lately, but not to their library. If Spilker's unit was involved in the Uprising as some literature mentions, they might have some info.

I speak Polish, do you?

Any other ideas for sources?

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tom_deba
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by tom_deba » 16 Nov 2008 16:54

I've been to the excellent Warsaw Uprising Museum lately, but not to their library. If Spilker's unit was involved in the Uprising as some literature mentions, they might have some info.


It is good idea to check their library. It would be important to check once again Polish studies about German occupational police as well as essays about German war crimes in Distrikt Warschau and in Warschau as well.

I speak Polish, do you?

I do:) Pozdrawiam:)

Any other ideas for sources?


IPN Archives - there must be something about the subject among files of investigations. There are a lot of files about people who committed crimes during occupation.

jola
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by jola » 16 Nov 2008 18:22

IPN has a few interesting positions:

http://www.ipn.poczytaj.pl/5874

...about Gestapo agents. Kalkstein and Kaczorowska are a particularly vile lot. After working for Gestapo, they worked for the communist UB. Raz kurwa...

http://www.ipn.poczytaj.pl/5852

...a chapter on Zagiew.

We'll come back to this.

jola
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by jola » 19 Nov 2008 15:50

A couple pics of Thirteen

Image

Image

And the Germans gave medals to Jewish collaborators. This one is from the Lodz ghetto.

Image

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tom_deba
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Re: Jewish Nazicollaborators

Post by tom_deba » 20 Nov 2008 17:26

A couple pics of Thirteen


This is not Thirteen but Jewish Police in Ghetto:)

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