Jewish Nazicollaborators

[jola]

The article I got it from marked them as of the Thirteen. I guess Thirteen were not uniformed.

Czerniakow's diary has many entries about Gancwaich and Thirteen (in Polish):

http://warszawa.getto.pl/index.php?mod= ... Cz&lang=en

[Simon K]

Jola your supposition that the Jews would wish to whitewash "collaborationist" activity is wrong and offensive,
What would "collaboration" amount to in the context of the "useful" Jewish life that the Nazis suffered?
I totally agree with Weisenhals sentiments in the sense of his thirst for justice, but I dont go along with his analysis.
It may well have been a psycological denial of this ultimate horror of the black pit of the Holocaust.
Were these members of Torch or whatever free agents in their treachery? Even if these organisations mere existence is proven.
Your incomprehension of the totality of the Holocaust to the Jewish psyche is palpable at the moment.
Chili shows insight in his opening post.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Guys,

I think this thread is getting a little on the conspiracy theory side. The idea that because there is little in English on this subject on the internet but rather more in Polish is unremarkable. These events took place in Poland and are likely to be of primary interest there. So let's hold the insinuations of some sort of cover-up unless we actually have some evidence.

Several years ago I asked on an internet forum about the killing of a German general in 1943 by the Polish Home Army. I did so because there was nothing in English on the incident. A Pole kindly gave me details. The fact that there was nothing on it in English merely indicated that it was not a subject of much interest in the English-speaking world, not that it was the subject to some conspiratorial cover-up. the same is probably true in this case.

It is also worth repeating that the Jewish ghetto police have long been known about and have long been written about in English. If they had not existed, anarchy would have reigned in the ghettos. Some sort of internal administration and enforcement organisation was vital and in Jewish interests to ensure that what little food and medicine the Germans allowed in was equitably distributed. The existence of Judenrats and their police was not an act of willful collaboration with the Germans but an act of self preservation for Jews in the ghettos. Probably deliberately, the Germans chose some particularly unsavoury characters to lead and man them.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Guys,

I think this thread is getting a little on the conspiracy theory side. The idea that because there is little in English on this subject on the internet but rather more in Polish is unremarkable. These events took place in Poland and are likely to be of primary interest there. So let's hold the insinuations of some sort of cover-up unless we actually have some evidence.

Several years ago I asked on an internet forum about the killing of a German general in 1943 by the Polish Home Army. I did so because there was nothing in English on the incident. A Pole kindly gave me details. The fact that there was nothing on it in English merely indicated that it was not a subject of much interest in the English-speaking world, not that it was the subject to some conspiratorial cover-up. The same is probably true in this case.

It is also worth repeating that the Jewish ghetto police have long been known about and have long been written about in English. If they had not existed, anarchy would have reigned in the ghettos. Some sort of internal administration and enforcement organisation was vital and in Jewish interests to ensure that what little food and medicine the Germans allowed in was equitably distributed. The existence of Judenrats and their police was not an act of willful collaboration with the Germans but an act of self preservation for Jews in the ghettos. Probably deliberately, the Germans chose some particularly unsavoury characters to lead and man them.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Simon K]

I totally agree Sid.

Simon

[jola]

A couple pics of Thirteen

This is not Thirteen but Jewish Police in Ghetto:)

"Unfortunately, there were many traitors amongst the Jews who formed a secret police working with
the Gestapo. None of them was from Warsaw, I’m happy to say. They were all from Lodz [Łódz],
which the Germans called Litzmannstadt. They were all intelligentsia—doctors, engineers,
police—none of them uneducated or from the lower classes. They were all professionals—and
disgustingly mean. We were afraid of them like fire. Their headquarters were on the same street as
Café Sztuka, but on the other side. The building was Number Thirteen Leszno Street. Because of
that, they were called Number Thirteens.
This was the Jewish Gestapo against the Jews. They had green bands on their caps. The regular
Jewish police had blue bands. The Jewish Gestapo would come into the café, but we did not like to
serve them. They did a lot of dirty work. Let’s say some Jews had hidden in their apartments
dollars or money or gold that they could sell to buy food. The Jewish Gestapo would give away all
these secrets to the Germans. And the Germans would come shooting and killing" - Goldberg, Running Through Fire, 23–25.

Several other sources mention Thirteen's identical uniforms to that of the ghetto police except for the hat band. I'm sure there were many ununiformed as well.

[jola]

Jola your supposition that the Jews would wish to whitewash "collaborationist" activity is wrong and offensive,
What would "collaboration" amount to in the context of the "useful" Jewish life that the Nazis suffered?
I totally agree with Weisenhals sentiments in the sense of his thirst for justice, but I dont go along with his analysis.
It may well have been a psycological denial of this ultimate horror of the black pit of the Holocaust.
Were these members of Torch or whatever free agents in their treachery? Even if these organisations mere existence is proven.
Your incomprehension of the totality of the Holocaust to the Jewish psyche is palpable at the moment.
Chili shows insight in his opening post.

I'm not surprised by your post. In fact, I was expecting something more, like, 'my irrational hatred.' Oh well, you disappointed me.

When I have more time I will spell it out for you so you can understand the "totality of the Holocaust to the Jewish psyche." BTW, what in the hell is that anyway. I'll just give you the facts so be patient.

[tom_deba]

Their headquarters were on the same street as
Café Sztuka, but on the other side. The building was Number Thirteen Leszno Street. Because of
that, they were called Number Thirteens.
This was the Jewish Gestapo against the Jews. They had green bands on their caps. The regular
Jewish police had blue bands.

Hmm...Do you mean Thirteen was a police unit with dual task: illegal (special security, spying) and legal (Jewish police in ghetto)?

[David Thompson]

jola -- You wrote, of another poster:

I'm not surprised by your post. In fact, I was expecting something more, like, 'my irrational hatred.' Oh well, you disappointed me.

Our forum rules strongly discourage personal comments in posts. Please don't solicit them.

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Jola,

There are two strands to your posts.

1) A reporting of facts. Nobody has any objection to that.

2) Your insertion of unsupported personal opinion that goes beyond the facts as you present them. This is where you are tripping yourself up.

Stick to demonstrable hard facts and you can't go far wrong.

Cheers,

Sid.

[jola]

"Our forum rules strongly discourage personal comments in posts. Please don't solicit them."

Ok. A poster said my views are wrong and offensive without specifying what is offensive about the Jewish community burying Jewish collaboration in the archives. My palatable knowledge of the "totality of the Holocaust on the Jewish psyche" could also be taken as personal.

Never mind, I'll try to stick to facts known to us but not talked about.

There are a few seperate issues when discussing Jewish collaboration:

- the role of the Judenrat, ghetto police
- the role of the individual traitors
- the role of the Zionist organizations
- the role of Kapos and Sonderkommandos
- the role of NKVD, procecutors, judges and other henchmen on the other side of Poland's border and even worse after the war( one can easily make the argument that the Soviets were an Axis force till 1941). The thread would run hundreds of pages on this subject alone.

There has been a concerted effort to downplay each one of these subjects as we can see in the number of convictions in the post war era. Some collaborators, who managed to escape the wrath of underground organizations and their employers ie. Gestapo, went on to live out their lives in luxury and perhaps with the honors given to Holocaust survivors. Tell me, how many children and grandchildren in the USA of Adam Zurawin know what their pa did during the war. He was a Holocaust survivor after all. There are many others.

Since I started with the subject I will give some examples of the crimes by ghetto police and particuraly '13' in the Warsaw ghetto as an example of collaboration. Let each decide if this was under duress or just plain criminal and worthy condemnation and a severe punishment. This force of 300-400 men cannot be taken as a 'they had no choice' victims of the Holocaust. Taking about it will bring us to a better understanding of the "totality of the Holocaust."

The question raised by someone whether it is a conspiracy to hide this from public debate is almost funny - it is not a conspiracy - but don't be a Jew trying to bring it to limelight. The perfect example of that is Hannah Arndt.

Sorry, have to go.

[Artur Szulc]

Sid wrote,

I think this thread is getting a little on the conspiracy theory side. The idea that because there is little in English on this subject on the internet but rather more in Polish is unremarkable. These events took place in Poland and are likely to be of primary interest there. So let's hold the insinuations of some sort of cover-up unless we actually have some evidence.

Has anyone talked about a conspiracy or is it just our own observation? If it is just your own observation then nobody (don´t no who) has to provide any evidence. It is not illegal to express hypothesis or do like you do - only "think". Right?

Another not valid argument provided by Sid is that these events took place in Poland and therefore are of primary interest there. The Warsaw uprisings of 1943 and 1944 also took place in occupied Poland - are they therefore not of interest in other countries?

Greetings,

Chili

[Simon K]

Jola can you explain your last sentence in your last post?

Sid is correct in his comment about sources in English and Polish. Also in that much information about "Jewish collaboration" is known in the west and that serious research into such a dubious red herring does not advance our knowledge as to the cause of the holocaust one jot. However it does serve the purpose of bolstering the mucky opinions of some on the extreme right that the Jewish people were somehow complicit in their own attempted murder.
I have no difficulty in accepting that a very small minority of the Jewish population collaborated to extend their own survival for a few months. And that even a few miserable specimens managed to survive the war. But what does that fact prove? That humans beset with unimaginable circumstances are apt to react in noble or ignoble ways? Hardly an earth shattering find.
As for the Jewish psyche, the concept of which you seem to have difficulty in grasping, I suggest you read some of Primo Levi for starters.

[tom_deba]

The question raised by someone whether it is a conspiracy to hide this from public debate is almost funny - it is not a conspiracy - but don't be a Jew trying to bring it to limelight. The perfect example of that is Hannah Arndt.

Could you explain us the meaning of this statement?

[Simon K]

Jola- you claim that the Jewish community were, or are

bury(ing) evidence) of Jewish collaboration in the archives

Thats a big claim.
Got anything to back that up?