When did antisemitism start?

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phylo_roadking
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#106

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Jul 2009, 01:21

Apart from phyto's last effort
Well...you were the one didn't specify which Shem you were talking about... :wink: http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc175.htm...

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#107

Post by garlock » 12 Jul 2009, 01:26

I think my last post is germane to the topic, as it gives the (mythical?) origins of a conflictual relationship between the Jews and other peoples. I thought Karl was implying that this knowledge would be helpful to our discussion. I didn't understand the last questions, however.

John


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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#108

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Jul 2009, 01:41

as it gives the (mythical?) origins of a conflictual relationship between the Jews and other peoples.
John - while the curse has some mythological bearing on why Jews would have a conflict with other peoples...it doesn't really bear on why other people would have a conflict with Jews :wink: Except possibly from spending the next 5,000 years righting things LOL

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#109

Post by garlock » 12 Jul 2009, 01:51

phylo_roadking wrote:
as it gives the (mythical?) origins of a conflictual relationship between the Jews and other peoples.
John - while the curse has some mythological bearing on why Jews would have a conflict with other peoples...it doesn't really bear on why other people would have a conflict with Jews :wink: Except possibly from spending the next 5,000 years righting things LOL
Phylo,
Unless you're just having me on, what do you mean, "righting things"?

A fascinating aspect of today's Palestinian issue is that some people take the covenant very seriously and base their actions upon it I believe that this is germane to our discussion of antisemitism's origins because it forecasts a conflictual relationship, and that very forecast was made by the ancestors of the Jews, who have subsequently suffered so throughout the years. Does this imply a self-imposed "otherness" that has made the target easier to see or dislike?

John
Last edited by garlock on 12 Jul 2009, 02:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#110

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Jul 2009, 02:00

The curse put the Hebrews/Jews in a superior position to those they displaced, the descendants of Ham. So unless those said descendants of Ham have spent the last 5,000 years attempting to right that perceived wrong...creating "modern" antisemitism in the process...then neither can *I* see why Karl brought up the subject.
Does this imply a self-imposed "otherness" that has made the target easier to see?
In a Near Eastern ancient world where the Jews took on allcomers, told everyone ELSE to naff off due to their being gentiles, worshipped only one all-powerful God in a plura-theistic world etc....they couldn't actually have stuck their heads above the parapet any MORE than they did! 8O They were a "stiff-necked people" in a world of quite large competing empires on their every border, yet they didn't exactly "walk softly"...

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#111

Post by garlock » 12 Jul 2009, 02:08

No, no. The subject is important because it educates us to the mind set. It actually gives is the origins. No, the Ham descendants didn't spend 5000 years righting the wrong, but they didn't need to, really. The Jewish presence was kind of integrated and workable, wasn't it, for centuries in semitic countries? Once nationalism became an issue, the integration became less and the separatism became more.

John

Well, you're editing quicker than I can respond. I think your last point is just the one I have made here. And yes, since you brought it up, there is the fact of at times being aggressive and maybe inviting conflict. Now, can we say that this was not the case during 19th-20th century Germany?
Last edited by garlock on 12 Jul 2009, 02:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#112

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Jul 2009, 02:11

Once nationalism became an issue, the integration became less and the separatism became more.
But that only explains 1948 to the present day - or at most 1919 to the present day. And only in the British Mandate/modern state of Israel, in the context of Palestinian vs. Jew. It doesn't really have any bearing on historical anti-semitism...and all those centuries when the Jews were socially/politically scattered across Euorpe and later the New World.

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#113

Post by garlock » 12 Jul 2009, 02:14

OK. That's right. Good. So, if the Jews did not invite antagonism during many years of their diaspora, did any of that aura cling to them? For instance, would Biblical scholars or people who used the religious reasoning for antisemitism have projected upon the Jews this Old Testament identity?

John

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#114

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Jul 2009, 02:19

did any of that aura cling to them? For instance, would Biblical scholars or people who used the religious reasoning for antisemitism have projected upon the Jews this Old Testament identity?
Hardly...given that for the first 325 years of Christian Era....even Christians couldn't agree what was or wasn't in said Bible! 8O

And after THAT....they didn't really need to go past the "Christ killers" stigma!!!

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#115

Post by garlock » 12 Jul 2009, 02:24

phylo_roadking wrote:
did any of that aura cling to them? For instance, would Biblical scholars or people who used the religious reasoning for antisemitism have projected upon the Jews this Old Testament identity?
Hardly...given that for the first 325 years of Christian Era....even Christians couldn't agree what was or wasn't in said Bible! 8O

And after THAT....they didn't really need to go past the "Christ killers" stigma!!!
No, they didn't. So, if antisemitism is one item in the category of "prejudice," does it bear any distinction, other than that it is prejudice against Jews? Is there a hierarchy of hatreds?

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#116

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Jul 2009, 02:29

So, if antisemitism is one item in the category of "prejudice," does it bear any distinction, other than that it is prejudice against Jews?
From Wiki -
The Roman Catholic historian Edward Flannery distinguished four varieties of antisemitism:
political and economic antisemitism, giving as examples Cicero and Charles Lindbergh;
theological or religious antisemitism, sometimes known as anti-Judaism;
nationalistic antisemitism, citing Voltaire and other Enlightenment thinkers, who attacked Jews for supposedly having certain characteristics, such as greed and arrogance, and for observing customs such as kashrut and Shabbat;
and racial antisemitism, as practiced in the Holocaust by the Nazis.
In addition, from the 1990s, some writers claim to have identified a new antisemitism, a form of antisemitism coming simultaneously from the far left, the far right, and radical Islam, which tends to focus on opposition to Zionism and a Jewish homeland in the State of Israel, and which may deploy traditional antisemitism motifs.

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#117

Post by Karl » 12 Jul 2009, 02:31

No, I meant the word is apocryphal, fallible (one among...) and often contradictory. Without meaning a word is meaningless. Without understanding as much as possible about an important term appropos to the discussion, how can we discuss the question properly?

Phylo, you will get this thread shut-down.

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#118

Post by garlock » 12 Jul 2009, 02:36

Phylo,
Good citation.

So what I'm wondering is if we on this thread have answered our question adequately. We have traced origins. We have sussed out the Nazi approach. We've looked at many manifestations. I think understand.

John

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#119

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Jul 2009, 02:37

The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile"). Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races." These pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. In Treitschke's writings Semitic was synonymous with Jewish, in contrast to its usage by Renan and others.

In 1873 German journalist Wilhelm Marr published a pamphlet "The Victory of the Jewish Spirit over the Germanic Spirit. Observed from a non-religious perspective." ("Der Sieg des Judenthums über das Germanenthum. Vom nicht confessionellen Standpunkt aus betrachtet.") in which he used the word "Semitismus" interchangeably with the word "Judentum" to denote both "Jewry" (the Jews as a collective) and "jewishness" (the quality of being Jewish,or the Jewish spirit). Although he did not use the word "Antisemitismus" in the pamphlet, the coining of the latter word followed naturally from the word "Semitismus", and indicated either opposition to the Jews as a people, or else oppositon to jewishness or the Jewish spirit, which he saw as infiltrating German culture. In his next pamphlet, "The Way to Victory of the Germanic Spirit over the Jewish Spirit", published in 1880, Marr developed his ideas further and coined the related German word Antisemitismus - antisemitism, derived from the word "Semitismus" that he had earlier used.

The pamphlet became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Antisemites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany and German culture posed by the Jews and their influence, and advocating their forced removal from the country.

So far as can be ascertained, the word was first widely printed in 1881, when Marr published "Zwanglose Antisemitische Hefte," and Wilhelm Scherer used the term "Antisemiten" in the January issue of "Neue Freie Presse". The related word semitism was coined around 1885.
The cut-off point, where it changes from mere prejudice to Anti-Semitism, seems to come NOT do to any perceived action on their part - the killing of Christ, for example - but when that prejudice is measured as being some perceived real physical inferiority of them as a race as in "...how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races.""

I.E. because of what Jews (Semites) "were"...as opposed to anything they had "done"

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#120

Post by garlock » 12 Jul 2009, 04:28

Right, and that's where the psuedoscience came in. The behavioral accusations didn't cease, however. They were retained, updated, and included with the physical condemnations. That type of genetic hierarchy, which we have noted in this thread, has happened with other groups. In fact, one can probably find that most prejudices against racial groups do found themselves, at least somewhat, on the genetic hierarchy. So are there comparable names for other types of racial prejudice that are as widely recognized as "antisemitism"?

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