When did antisemitism start?

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uberjude
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#301

Post by uberjude » 29 Nov 2011, 15:50

But again, why did they attribute those negative characteristics to Christians? Because the policies adopted by Christian rulers early on corresponded to the type of negative behavior associated with the Romans and hence, Edom. Give me a date for when it started, show me that it precedes any negative action or policy on the part of Christian rulers, and then you have an argument. Right now, it's just a lot of references to vague times, but without a date as to when the association began, it doesn't tell us anything about what may have inspired it. There's a big difference between 100 AD and 1100 AD.

As for the rest, your statement that:
The Jewish enlightenment and assimilation of the 19th Century, and the large-scale participation of Western Jews in modern civilisation, was a result of Rabbi Emden's ruling.
is utterly absurd. First of all, Judaism is not monolithic. Emden wasn't wasn't the pope of the Jews, and his opinions were not accepted as the rule of law by all Jews. Secondly, most of the maskilim (enlightened Jews) couldn't have cared less about Emden's ruling, and and the Jews who really acculturated (much less assimilated) were precisely those who cared the least about the halachic ramifications of their actions. If you can show me where anybody based their embrace of the haskalah on having Emden's permission to do so, please present it.

EDIT--I read what I could of Biale on googlebooks, but the only thing I could find was a very minor reference to Emden, without any context. In the world of Jewish law, rabbis get asked questions all the times, so was don't know from this who was asking it, or why, or who, if anybody, acted upon it. Certainly, there's nothing there to suggest that Emden's statement was particularly influential or transformative. All it says is that he "cleared the way for a much closer relationship between the Jews and the nations in which they lived." "Cleared the way" is a fairly vague statement. Moreover, the specific reference was not to "christians," but that "the nations of Europe were not the descendants of ancient Rome, the claims of the Holy Roman Empire notwithstanding," so it certainly doesn't support the notion that this is some ancient opinion. For all we know, somebody wrote to him and said "Rabbi, if Rome is Edom, can we associate with the Holy Roman Empire?"

Also, based solely on searching the book with the terms you used, like blood and guilt and inherited and edom and temple and christians I don't turn up anything like what you said. Granted, it's an imperfect method, but until I can get a copy of it, the best I can do.

michael mills
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#302

Post by michael mills » 01 Dec 2011, 04:58

Have a look at page 105. Biale says that Rabbi Emden absolved the contemporary European nations of responsibility for the destruction of the temple.

The device he used to absolve them was to declare that they were not descended from the Ancient Romans, as the Jewish tradition had taught, and therefore had not inherited the guilt for the destruction.

But if the Jewish tradition had taught that the European peoples bore responsibility for the destruction of the temple, something that occurred before most European nations even existed, that shows that the Jewish moral assessment of the European peoples among whom they lived was not based on something those peoples had actually done to the Jews, but on something their alleged ancestors, the Ancient Romans, had done.


uberjude
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Joined: 19 Oct 2009, 03:51

Re: When did antisemitism start?

#303

Post by uberjude » 01 Dec 2011, 15:45

Right, that's the passage I'd found, which hardly supports all your other assertions. It says nothing about when this view was adopted, how widely it was held, what impact it had, nor--most importantly for your larger assertion regarding the Jewish Enlightenment--what role Emden's comment had on anybody else.

I don't dispute that in the 18th century, most Jews doubtlessly considered most Christian Europeans to be descendants of Edom. My question was when did that begin, and it goes back to the heart of the subject. To say that this view isn't based on anything that the people of Europe had done is overlooking that fact that in the 18th century, Jews were subject to all manner of restrictive laws, and had been for quite some time. The German Jew in 1750 who wanted evidence that the European Christians hated them (Eisav soneh et Yaakov) had only to look at the ghetto wall.

So Emden made a statement, without any context, it doesn't add much to this discussion, and certainly doesn't support all the other assertions you made. Again, it makes a pretty big difference if the association of Christian Europeans with Edom began in 1100 or 100.

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